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Thread: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

  1. #21

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    To clarify for those who are interested, at no point did Trump ask for a "favor" which involved digging up dirt on his political opponents. It's actually not entirely clear what he wanted, but it related to CrowdStrike, a cybersecurity firm which investigated the "hacking" of the DNC in 2016.

    This is what the president actually said:

    "I would like you to do us a favor though because our country has been through a lot and Ukraine knows a lot about it. I would like you to find out what happened with this whole situation with Ukraine, they say Crowdstrike ... I guess you have one of your wealthy people... The server, they say Ukraine has it".

    This is what he said about Biden:

    "The other thing, there's a lot of talk about Biden's son, that Biden stopped the prosecution and a lot of people want to find out about that so whatever you can do with the Attorney General would be great.Biden went around bragging that he stopped the prosecution so if you can look into it ... It sounds horrible to me."

    No sane person thinks that these messages indicate anything which justifies impeachment; we're just back to the same game of people who've hated the idea of Trump presidency since 2015 inventing reasons why he should be removed from office. As I mentioned in my first post, the press are - of course - using misleading headlines and manipulatively cropped segments of the conversation in order to fuel a false narrative.
    Last edited by Cope; September 25, 2019 at 11:18 AM.



  2. #22
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    have a hard look at the company that was employing the son of an American vice president in a $600,000 a year no work job
    You do realize sitting on a board in the US is just as much no work and the pay and perks are better...

    --------------

    Riling up Republicans and putting off independent voters... doesn't sound like a smart strategy. I'm starting to think Democrats want to lose.
    Oh god of god no not independents the great important voting block. In terms of the presidency you can solid argument that either Gore or Hillery lost because of loosing the left of the Dems over some mythical centrist republican vote. Riling up up the democratic base is worth since Hillery almost won by making them apathetic.
    Last edited by conon394; September 25, 2019 at 11:37 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #23

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Same deflections, denials, obfuscations, and whataboutism, different scandal, I suppose. Anyway, it will be interesting to see what else the House is able to document as part of the official impeachment inquiry. It's almost comforting to see Trump and his loyal defenders skip over the customary "Who? Ukraine? Never heard of her, never met her, and even if I did, she's not my type," and jump straight to bald-faced defiance and finger-pointing within hours.

    "What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening." - DJT
    "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and wouldn’t lose any voters, ok? It’s, like, incredible.” - DJT
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  4. #24
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    You do realize sitting on a board in the US is just as much no work and the pay and perks are better...
    Can we at least agree that a wayward family member of a prominent politician finding lucrative employment with a corporation despite having no apparent skills suitable for the given position could, possibly raise an eyebrow of a suspiciously minded person?
    Last edited by Big War Bird; September 25, 2019 at 11:57 AM.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

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  5. #25

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Same deflections, denials, obfuscations, and whataboutism, different scandal, I suppose. Anyway, it will be interesting to see what else the House is able to document as part of the official impeachment inquiry. It's almost comforting to see Trump and his loyal defenders skip over the customary "Who? Ukraine? Never heard of her, never met her, and even if I did, she's not my type," and jump straight to bald-faced defiance and finger-pointing within hours.

    "What you're seeing and what you're reading is not what's happening." - DJT
    "I could stand in the middle of 5th Avenue and shoot somebody and wouldn’t lose any voters, ok? It’s, like, incredible.” - DJT
    So it's going to be the "b..but Drumpf fanboys are self-evidently wrong!" argument. You don't even have the courtesy to try and justify your previous post.



  6. #26

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    No sane person thinks that these messages indicate anything which justifies impeachment; we're just back to the same game of people who've hated the idea of Trump presidency since 2015 inventing reasons why he should be removed from office. As I mentioned in my first post, the press are - of course - using misleading headlines and manipulatively cropped segments of the conversation in order to fuel a false narrative.
    So why isn't the whistleblower's report in the hands of the Congress to where this would never come up and the Executive would've never broken the law that the DNI shall provide the whistleblower complaint to the committee if the IG determines it's relevant for Congress.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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  7. #27
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    Can we at least agree that a wayward family member of a prominent politician finding lucrative employment with a corporation despite having no apparent skills suitable for the given position could, possibly raise an eyebrow of a suspiciously minded person?
    So I'll be finding those posts of your s horrified about the Jared being put in charge any government operation or Mideast peace or getting a security clearance...
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  8. #28

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    So it's going to be the "b..but Drumpf fanboys are self-evidently wrong!" argument. You don't even have the courtesy to try and justify your previous post.
    You’ve already declared that it’s “unclear” why Trump asked the Ukrainian government to look into Biden and his family, and coordinate with his administration. Apparently you think your opinion on the rationale behind Trump’s request somehow equates to the propriety or impropriety of the request itself. How does that oblige me to justify any of my statements on the matter by the metric of your framing? I’m not going to.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  9. #29
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    So I'll be finding those posts of your s horrified about the Jared being put in charge any government operation or Mideast peace or getting a security clearance...
    Is Kushner getting paid? I don't believe he is. if so the situation is almost precisely reversed. You have a family member doing genuinely important work for no remuneration. Though I will grant his qualifications are suspect.

    and BTW, I did start a thread in 2017 in which I opined Trump would be impeached and removed from office that year because I thought him so foolish.
    Last edited by Big War Bird; September 25, 2019 at 12:34 PM.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

    -Ella Hill

  10. #30

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    You’ve already declared that it’s “unclear” why Trump asked the Ukrainian government to look into Biden and his family, and coordinate with his administration. Apparently you think your opinion on the rationale behind Trump’s request somehow equates to the propriety or impropriety of the request itself. How does that oblige me to justify any of my statements on the matter by the metric of your framing? I’m not going to.
    No. I did not "declare that it's unclear why Trump asked the Ukrainian government to look into Biden": what I claimed was that the "favor" (which you implied was related to Biden) was in fact related to CrowdStrike, albeit ambiguously. The fact that the president also asked (not threatened, blackmailed or bribed as was previously claimed) Zelensky to look into alleged corruption involving Biden is utterly meaningless.

    The fact you think that Trump merely asking Zelensky to look into Biden's activities is in someway improper is ludicrous - especially since neither you nor anyone in the press now bleating about the president cared one iota when Clinton sought to use a foreign agent working through Russian contacts to dig up dirt on the Trump. But once again, its one standard for Trump and one standard for everyone else isn't it?
    Last edited by Cope; September 28, 2019 at 04:49 PM.



  11. #31

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Has a bit a vise of somebody with a law degree patting the profession on the back. Its fairly obvious that with a non legal term 'high crimes and misdemeanors' and specifically locating impeachment in the Congress and not the courts what was created was a political process not a legal one. My point was treason would be easy its clearly defined but the second set of reasons is vague and undefined.
    My point is Congress can't just throw treason around casually even for Impeachment. That's a Constitutional level crime. If you want that one you need to pretty well match it to how the Constitution defines it. Even in an impeachment investigation. There's a lot of history to that crime, how Britain abused it, and why it was defined the way it was in our law.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  12. #32

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    No. I did not "declare that it's unclear why Trump asked the Ukrainian government to look into Biden": what I claimed was that the "favor" (which you implied was related to Biden) was in fact related to CrowdStrike, albeit ambiguously. The fact that the president also asked (not threatened, blackmailed or bribed as was previously claimed) Zelensky to look into alleged corruption involving Biden is utterly meaningless.

    The fact you think that Trump merely asking Zelensky to look into Biden's activities is in someway improper is ludicrous - especially since neither you nor anyone in the press now bleating about the president cared one iota when Clinton (the then Secretary of State) sought to use a foreign agent working through Russian contacts to dig up dirt on the Trump. But once again, its one standard for Trump and one standard for everyone else.
    I didn’t imply Trump’s request was related to Biden. Trump didn’t imply it either. He flat out stated it. I stated it. You provided the transcript where he stated it, as did every major publication in the country, courtesy of none other than Trump himself. The fact that the President of the United States asked a foreign power to look into the family of his political opponent and coordinate with the President’s personal lawyer and his Administration is inherently corrupt. It doesn’t matter whether Trump asked threateningly, nicely, with a song and dance, or with a poem. It’s corrupt, and I don’t owe anyone a “justification” for saying so. Your assertion that I do on the basis of some random claim about Hillary Clinton is comical. WhAt AbOuT CrOoKeD HiLlaRy.... Never change, my friend, never change.
    Last edited by Lord Thesaurian; September 25, 2019 at 01:25 PM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  13. #33

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    I didn’t imply Trump’s request was related to Biden. Trump didn’t imply it either. He flat out stated it. I stated it. You provided the transcript where he stated it.
    I'm talking specifically about the word "favor" which was used in relation, not to Biden, but to Crowdstrike.

    The fact that the President of the United States asked a foreign power to look into the family of his political opponent and coordinate with the President’s personal lawyer and his Administration is inherently corrupt. It doesn’t matter whether Trump asked threateningly, nicely, with a song and dance, or with a poem. It’s corrupt, and I don’t owe anyone a “justification” for saying so. Your assertion that I do on the basis of some random claim about Hillary Clinton is comical. WhAt AbOuT CrOoKeD HiLlaRy.... Never change, my friend, never change.
    Oh, so your objection is predicated on an invented moral standard which you claim to be self-evidently true even though you don't apply it to anyone else. That's nice.



  14. #34

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Oh, so your objection is predicated on an invented moral standard which you claim to be self-evidently true even though you don't apply it to anyone else. That's nice.
    This may shock you, but it rather is up to the Legislative Branch and the ethical standard they put in place as to whether the President gets to use government resources to pressure a foreign government to investigate his own domestic political enemies.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  15. #35

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Oh, so your objection is predicated on an invented moral standard which you claim to be self-evidently true even though you don't apply it to anyone else. That's nice.
    You’re correct. The moral standard that the president shouldn’t ask a foreign power to look into the family of his political opponent in coordination with his administration and personal attorney is an invented moral standard. I’m glad it was invented, and don’t consider anyone who isn’t to be worth convincing otherwise.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  16. #36

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    You’re correct. The moral standard that the president shouldn’t ask a foreign power to look into the family of his political opponent in coordination with his administration and personal attorney is an invented moral standard. I’m glad it was invented, and don’t consider anyone who isn’t to be worth convincing otherwise.
    The usual dramatics; see how far the "deplorable" argument gets you



  17. #37
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    This may shock you, but it rather is up to the Legislative Branch and the ethical standard they put in place as to whether the President gets to use government resources to pressure a foreign government to investigate his own domestic political enemies.
    It's getting a bit cliched to compare Trump to Nixon but in this case the comparison is once again holding up.

    Finally, and most recently, there are the efforts by the president and his personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani—both reported on in the press and acknowledged publicly by both Trump and Giuliani—to push not the United States government, but the government of Ukraine, to investigate Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden and his son Hunter.

    This conduct, too, has a parallel to the Nixon impeachment articles. The famous second article of impeachment adopted by the House Judiciary Committee accused Nixon of “repeatedly engag[ing] in conduct violating the constitutional rights of citizens,” in part by seeking to initiate IRS and FBI investigations against his political opponents. This activity, the article states, was “in violation of [Nixon’s] duty to take care that the laws be faithfully executed.”
    Rest of the article is good too.

    https://www.lawfareblog.com/so-you-w...each-president
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  18. #38
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    This may shock you, but it rather is up to the Legislative Branch and the ethical standard they put in place as to whether the President gets to use government resources to pressure a foreign government to investigate his own domestic political enemies.
    Its a good thing that Trump didn’t pressure a foreign government, so says the president of that foreign government.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

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  19. #39
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    So far at least I haven't been able to figure out what the fuss is about. I read the transcript, Trump said a lot of rather incomprehensible things as usual, but nothing that seemed like the grand conspiracy I was hearing about in the news. This all feels like a second go at the Russian-collusion witch-hunt. Seeing how polarized the US political system currently is one thing I am fairly certain of, if Trump is impeached it won't be because of sth he did, but because he is Trump.

  20. #40

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    It's getting a bit cliched to compare Trump to Nixon but in this case the comparison is once again holding up.

    Rest of the article is good too.

    https://www.lawfareblog.com/so-you-w...each-president

    Even those who are reluctant to call the affair impeachable can’t help but recall Nixon. Some good bits from Politico here:


    It is also a bit curious why Attorney General Barr is allowing himself to be dragged into this. The downfall of prior administrations (think Nixon) has been when those who are there to keep the president on the straight path lapse into doing his bidding. It would be very interesting to know what information Barr had about Ukraine’s investigation, and whether our own Justice Department was pursuing some angle of it as well.


    https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...mocrats-228269
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

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