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Thread: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

  1. #161

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    Sure, but just to clarify for the rest of us, you think the Anglo-Saxon media, the Democratic Party, and the intelligence community are all united in a conspiracy against Donald Trump? Or perhaps not in a conspiracy, but all three are accomplices against President Trump and the Republican party?
    1. It's not a conspiracy. Neither the Democratic Party or the liberal press has sought to hide their hatred for Trump.

    2. The intelligence community is not generally involved (at least I haven't seen any evidence that it is), but it's been clear from the Strzok affair that there were politicized elements within it which were prepared to try and undermine the president. As far as the Ukraine case is concerned, the fact that the whistleblowing rules were changed to facilitate 2d. hand complaints immediately prior to a CIA operative issuing the 2d. hand complaint which formed the basis of the scandal clearly raises the possibility of some form of orchestration.

    3. Since I wouldn't describe this latest anti-Trump frenzy as "criminal", referring to the three entities as "accomplices" wouldn't be accurate.

  2. #162

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Ah yes, my mistake; she was no longer Secretary of State in 2013. It's just the foreign agent, Russian contacts and digging up dirt part which is true.
    If you want to continue to depict the event in a dishonest, partisan nature, then sure. 'Foreign agent' usually refers to an agent acting on behalf of a foreign government. Christopher Steele was no longer serving on behalf of Her Majesty's government by that point, he was a private citizen not representing any office. HRC was, also, a private citizen at that time and not representing any US office. Do you see how those two people working together might be, idk, different than the POTUS acting in his office interacting with the President of Ukraine acting in his office?
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    1. I have made the argument that Trump didn't do anything wrong.
    Not when you were bringing up HRC you weren't. That was *cough cough* something else.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    2. Biden's alleged impropriety is directly related to this incident.
    To what we are talking about? This thread is about the impeachment inquiry into Trump. Whether or not Biden did what Trump is accusing him of doesn't actually change whether what Trump did was OK for a POTUS to do. Again, it is either acceptable for a POTUS to ask a foreign leader (especially with potential pressures on them) to investigate a political opponent or it's not.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    I've already "discredited" the liberal view independent of the Clinton claims.
    Then why bring up HRC at all if not to use her as a whataboutism? Cause it sure seemed like your reasoning was "hey, look at these hypocrites that are upset over this when they weren't upset over that!"

    You know, a whataboutism.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    No. Again, you're ignoring all of my other posts on the matter and assuming that I think either Clinton's or Trump's behaviour was improper in the first place - which I don't. Pointing out a double standard is only tantamount to whataboutery if you're using it to excuse or distract from some other unethical action/behaviour (ie. it's your only point).
    No, I think you used Clinton as a means of invoking a whataboutism. And in the post I responded to, that was your only point. So what good was that post of yours?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    I have already made that argument.
    And then you said "whatabout Clinton". Congrats.
    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    I don't care that the president asked Zelensky to look into Biden; he has a right to make such a request even if it would benefit him personally were any wrongdoing on Biden's part to be found. Now if Trump had sought to coerce or bribe Zelensky that would be a different story, but I have seen no evidence of that.
    Of course you don't, that's what worries me. Think about what all you are implying here; you are saying it is ok for the acting POTUS to go after political opponents by *ahem* asking foreign leaders to have them investigated. You think there is...no issue with having that be normal? Do you think previous presidents didn't typically do this because they were just, what, not as clever as Trump to figure out you can call foreign leaders (who may need you for something) and just asking them to investigate American political opponents?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    1. It's not a conspiracy. Neither the Democratic Party or the liberal press has sought to hide their hatred for Trump.
    Except in post 155 the claim wasn't that the Democratic Party or "liberal press*" (*organizations involved unspecified) "hated Trump"; it was that they clearly engaged in a "choreographed assault" on the POTUS. Those are two very different claims, one sounding much more conspiracy theory-ish than the other.
    Last edited by The spartan; September 28, 2019 at 08:37 PM.
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  3. #163

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    This is whataboutery.
    No it isn't.

  4. #164
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    The Biden/Shokin lie was debunked pages ago in detail. If Biden can’t counter a bald-faced lie, he deserves to lose. Trumpists are desperate to change the subject, I guess. The Orange Leader is too, looks like:


    https://www.nbcnews.com/video/trump-...ne-69897285927


    It’s just precious.

  5. #165

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    If you want to continue to depict the event in a dishonest, partisan nature, then sure. 'Foreign agent' usually refers to an agent acting on behalf of a foreign government. Christopher Steele was no longer serving on behalf of Her Majesty's government by that point, he was a private citizen not representing any office. HRC was, also, a private citizen at that time and not representing any US office. Do you see how those two people working together might be, idk, different than the POTUS acting in his office interacting with the President of Ukraine acting in his office?
    I don't even think it's Her Majesty's government anymore; it's more like Lady Brenda Hale's government now.

    Not when you were bringing up HRC you weren't. That was *cough cough* something else.
    I don't care that Hillary sought to investigate a political opponent.

    To what we are talking about? This thread is about the impeachment inquiry into Trump. Whether or not Biden did what Trump is accusing him of doesn't actually change whether what Trump did was OK for a POTUS to do. Again, it is either acceptable for a POTUS to ask a foreign leader (especially with potential pressures on them) to investigate a political opponent or it's not.
    Well would you continue to think it was improper for a president to request an investigation into the actions of a former administration if there was a genuine basis for assuming that it had acted illegally?

    Then why bring up HRC at all if not to use her as a whataboutism? Cause it sure seemed like your reasoning was "hey, look at these hypocrites that are upset over this when they weren't upset over that!"

    You know, a whataboutism.
    Highlighting hypocrisy isn't automatically whataboutery no matter how much you wish it was.

    No, I think you used Clinton as a means of invoking a whataboutism. And in the post I responded to, that was your only point. So what good was that post of yours?
    To point out this impeachment investigation isn't being held in good faith.

    And then you said "whatabout Clinton". Congrats.
    Irrelevant, for the reasons shown.

    Of course you don't, that's what worries me. Think about what all you are implying here; you are saying it is ok for the acting POTUS to go after political opponents by *ahem* asking foreign leaders to have them investigated. You think there is...no issue with having that be normal? Do you think previous presidents didn't typically do this because they were just, what, not as clever as Trump to figure out you can call foreign leaders (who may need you for something) and just asking them to investigate American political opponents?
    If there is a basis for said opponent to be investigated then I have no issue with it.

    Except in post 155 the claim wasn't that the Democratic Party or "liberal press*" (*organizations involved unspecified) "hated Trump"; it was that they clearly engaged in a "choreographed assault" on the POTUS. Those are two very different claims, one sounding much more conspiracy theory-ish than the other.
    The point is that there is nothing really clandestine about their activities, so calling it a conspiracy theory wouldn't be appropriate. We knew that the Democrats were considering triggering an impeachment inquiry and we knew that the liberal press would support them in that endeveour.
    Last edited by ep1c_fail; September 28, 2019 at 09:16 PM.

  6. #166
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Of course you don't, that's what worries me. Think about what all you are implying here; you are saying it is ok for the acting POTUS to go after political opponents by *ahem* asking foreign leaders to have them investigated. You think there is...no issue with having that be normal? Do you think previous presidents didn't typically do this because they were just, what, not as clever as Trump to figure out you can call foreign leaders (who may need you for something) and just asking them to investigate American political opponents?
    Weird post. You okay with Obama having concocted a fake dossier through British and I think Dutch intelligence to justify a politically motivated fisa and active spying on a presidential campaign. Is that okay? Just checking on your consistency since you are taking this position.

  7. #167

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by JP226 View Post
    Weird post. You okay with Obama having concocted a fake dossier through British and I think Dutch intelligence to justify a politically motivated fisa and active spying on a presidential campaign. Is that okay? Just checking on your consistency since you are taking this position.
    You’re making things up.

  8. #168

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by irontaino View Post
    I'm sure that means absolutely nothing to the cult because their messiah can do no wrong.
    They know that Trump is their last hope to take the US back 60+ years to their fantasy version of the 1950s, a time when women were nothing more than cooking and cleaning sex objects, non-whites served their betters or just stayed out of sight, gays didn't exist, and no one ever questioned that this was the natural order. That's why nothing Trump could ever possibly do or say will ever turn them against him. If he goes, they will have no other option but to start treating people who aren't straight white male Christians as real Americans.

  9. #169
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    It does sound ridiculous, but I find US politics has a lot that is bafflingly stupid (on all sides).

    There are elements in US politics that want abortion banned, there are elements that want healthcare monetized (oh wait, they actually imposed that particular hellscape on the US), there are people who think Trump is literally Hitler, and people who think Clinton is an actual devil worshipper. Its a low IQ environment.

    I'm not seeing any serious arguments that Trump has not abused US power for political gain. There has been some whataboutism, and while thats a tactic its pretty much the front line for both sides in US politics because it seems voters are too stupid to see through it. This seems to have a little bit more than the usual "Orange Man Bad" tripe.

    More broadly speaking the whataboutism is relevant: Trump has been in bed with the Clintons and they both enjoyed the "suicidal" paedo party host's hospitality. His accusers come from the same cabal that runs the country. They talk about gaoling each other but it doesn't happen.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; September 30, 2019 at 04:41 AM. Reason: Continuity.
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  10. #170
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    It does sound ridiculous, but I find US politics has a lot that is bafflingly stupid (on all sides).

    There are elements in US politics that want abortion banned, there are elements that want healthcare monetized (oh wait, they actually imposed that particular hellscape on the US), there are people who think Trump is literally Hitler, and people who think Clinton is an actual devil worshipper. Its a low IQ environment.

    I'm not seeing any serious arguments that Trump has not abused US power for political gain. There has been some whataboutism, and while thats a tactic its pretty much the front line for both sides in US politics because it seems voters are too stupid to see through it. This seems to have a little bit more than the usual "Orange Man Bad" tripe.

    More broadly speaking the whataboutism is relevant: Trump has been in bed with the Clintons and they both enjoyed the "suicidal" paedo party host's hospitality. His accusers come from the same cabal that runs the country. They talk about gaoling each other but it doesn't happen.
    Lol, how do you get to have the neutral smug vibe than parrot left wing propaganda?

  11. #171

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    "What about Biden"
    Biden: * admits of corrupt activity in Ukraine on record *
    Trump government: "this should be investigated"
    Ukrainian government: * agrees *
    Democrats: "OMG impeach Trump!111" (for the 130th time now)
    Media: "Orange man bad" (as usual)

    So yeah, clearly the whole thing started with Biden and will probably end with him losing nomination.And he can't even blame Trump here, he himself bragged about what he did on a video. Inquiry is just a smokescreen, since even the most insane Dems must understand that they have no leg to stand on.

  12. #172
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Biden: * admits of corrupt activity in Ukraine on record *
    Not true
    Trump government: "this I’m going to personally ask a foreign government to investigate my political opponent and his family based on a lie my personal attorney has been lobbying said foreign government to pursue for months"
    Fixed

  13. #173

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    Not true

    Fixed
    LOL Biden himself admitted it. On a video:


    It is not a "lie". Democrats literally played themselves. Again.

  14. #174
    Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Watch Chris Wallace grill Stephen Miller about why Trump thought it was appropriate to use his private attorney to dig up dirt on Biden -- and not let Miller get away with obfuscating.

    https://twitter.com/atrupar/status/1178317276560408584

    ---

    CBS News poll finds majority of Americans approve of impeachment inquiry against Trump

    Including 23% of Republicans, up from an average of 6% before the Ukraine scandal, I believe.

    Last edited by Prodromos; September 29, 2019 at 11:28 AM.

  15. #175

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    LOL Biden himself admitted it. On a video:
    [YOUTUBE]uuBVs0w48OA?t=152[YOUTUBE]

    It is not a "lie". Democrats literally played themselves. Again.
    We have an Attorney General. We have Grand Juries. I await the indictment with bated breath.
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  16. #176
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    LOL Biden himself admitted it. On video

    It is not a "lie". Democrats literally played themselves. Again.
    If you’re going to $-post desperate Trumpist propaganda, the least you can do is read the thread first.
    Quote Originally Posted by Post #85
    Kaleniuk was also distressed that the Times report, and Vogel’s tweet promoting it, failed to clearly debunk the false claim that the prosecutor Joe Biden got fired “had opened a case into a company that was paying HUNTER BIDEN.” In fact, Kasko and Kaleniuk noted, Shokin had undermined efforts to investigate the company and its owner.
    More for good measure:

    lPut simply, there is no evidence to support the conspiracy theory that Trump and his personal lawyer Rudy Giuliani want Ukraine to validate by opening an investigation. Still, it has become an article of faith among Trump supporters that Biden got the chief prosecutor, Viktor Shokin, dismissed to derail a corruption investigation of a Ukrainian firm his son was paid to advise.


    As I reported at the time, the truth is not that hard to determine. There is little doubt that Biden’s son Hunter did benefit from his father’s position by securing a spot on the board of a Ukrainian natural gas company in 2014, a legal but ethically dubious move. But when Joe Biden subsequently conveyeda threat from the Obama administration to withhold $1 billion in loan guarantees to Ukraine unless the chief prosecutor was dismissed, his intervention made it more rather than less likely that the oligarch who paid his son would be subject to prosecution for corruption.


    That’s because one of the most prominent cases of official corruption that Shokin had failed to pursue was against a former environment and natural resources minister, Mykola Zlochevsky, who had oversight of all Ukrainian energy firms, including the largest independent gas company, Burisma, which he secretly controlled through shell companies in Cyprus. After Zlochevsky was forced from office in 2014 — in the popular uprising that toppled a pro-Russian president, Viktor Yanukovych, and forced his political adviser, Paul Manafort, to look elsewhere for work — Burisma appointed Hunter Biden to its board.


    https://theintercept.com/2019/09/22/...biden-ukraine/

    In any case, I look forward to GOP legislation barring the families of federal officials from holding jobs with foreign companies and the creation of new ethics rules, given the not-at-all disingenuous level of finger-wagging about it.

  17. #177

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Legio_Italica View Post
    If you’re going to $-post desperate Trumpist propaganda, the least you can do is read the thread first.

    More for good measure:


    In any case, I look forward to GOP legislation barring the families of federal officials from holding jobs with foreign companies and the creation of new ethics rules, given the not-at-all disingenuous level of finger-wagging about it.
    I will say this as many times as I have to. We have an Attorney General. We have Grand Juries. I await the indictment with bated breath.

    If Trump's lapdog of an AG thinks it has a shot in hell of getting past the Grand Jury, that is.
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  18. #178

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    We have an Attorney General. We have Grand Juries. I await the indictment with bated breath.
    As I pointed out, Biden himself admitted that. On the video. Of course we know that top-tier dems can get away with murder and still not get indicted, Smollett effect and all. But we do have Biden confessing on record and that will bury them much faster.

  19. #179
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    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    As I pointed out, Biden himself admitted that. On the video. Of course we know that top-tier dems can get away with murder and still not get indicted, Smollett effect and all. But we do have Biden confessing on record and that will bury them much faster.
    lol, you really think he cares about that? He's legitimately arguing that turning a 3rd world country into your own personal bank account and playground is okay if your dad is running for President.

    Here's something else convenient that he doesn't give two about.

    https://thefederalist.com/2019/09/26...nergy-company/

    Loan Mitt Romney campaign adviser Cofer black sits on the same board as Hunter Biden did with Burisma. So convenient.

  20. #180

    Default Re: US House Speaker Announces Formal Impeachment Inquiry

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Of course we know that top-tier dems can get away with murder and still not get indicted, Smollett effect and all.
    Everybody thought top-tier politicians could get away with anything until the Supreme Court ordered Nixon to give the tapes to the Special Prosecutor. Sixteen Days later he resigned when his own party refused to back him anymore. It's been gone over in detail why what Biden did wasn't corruption. It's also been gone over why you're literally not allowed to involve a foreign agent or country in a campaign for federal, state, or local political office in America. Which is what Trump is doing.

    Trivia for you HH: United States v Nixon is ironically the case that would've allowed Trump to keep the Ukraine call under wraps. If he hadn't blasted that call out into the public on his own and revealed he was pretty much going all mobster blackmail on them with it. Because it was a diplomatic call and SCOTUS in US v Nixon said diplomatic calls is a context where the Executive does have its privileges and prosecutors can't just see if there's strange actions being done. Alas. Trump don't just keep his mouth shut. So now US v Nixon also says criminal actions and general political behavior do not have executive privilege for these investigations.

    So, you can either accept this history. Or not.
    Last edited by Gaidin; September 29, 2019 at 12:30 PM.
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    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

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