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Thread: On the idea of accuracy vs. authenticity...

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    Default On the idea of accuracy vs. authenticity...

    Ever since I finished that "test story", I got pretty busy but continue to read stuff all over the place. In a post last Sunday, Cookiegod said this...
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Historical novels and movies honestly mostly suck. As stories they tend to be weak and bad. As for realism/accuracy they tend to get too much wrong.
    This specific phrase was said inside a more general post where, at some point, he suggested things about AARs and other things.

    since that test run of a story that I wrote a few months ago, I've been pretty busy but the general idea of writing again, maybe in a more expansive way, is always there and that phrase, about novels and movies, stayed at the forefront of my thoughts this week. One of the thing I was brewing over was the idea of accuracy vs authenticity in writing historical pieces (novels/movies/etc...). What I am questionning myself with, in that "opposition", is how much one feeds directly from the other while how much one can "move away from the other" and still retain a "feeling of reality"? And the latter, for good or bad reason alike.

    I'd use my short story as an example. What I wanted to do was to create something that felt real, felt authentic, but that never really happenend. Yet, most of the "authenticity feels" I used are mostly based on "thesis" and/or studies and deductions based on artifacts, texts, etc... I remember that someone made a comment about the "language" I used and that he liked it and that it felt real. In the end though, I mainly "took upon myself to give it a Rome TV-series tone" and that was all. Thinking that it felt authentic but I jut don't know if it is authentic or not, just that a TV-series, highly praised for it's authenticity. On the other hand, something in that same TV-series, the military salute, is apparently something that, for most historian of that particular period, is a fallacy. Apparently, no text talk about a specific military salute, no statues or frescos or piece of art demonstrate a specific military salute. Nonetheless, most (I think) take it as being true (the salute the characters do) because the TV-series was praised so much about it's authenticity, that there is some kind of: "This must be ture.... most probably..." attitude that may isert itself in.

    So, authenthic vs real and how they feed/oppose each other.... Am I going into a unnecessary rabbit hole? Is it a rabbit hole???

    Benoit

  2. #2
    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: On the idea of accuracy vs. authenticity...

    Quote Originally Posted by JB2C View Post
    I'd use my short story as an example. What I wanted to do was to create something that felt real, felt authentic, but that never really happenend.
    For me, this example illustrates the difference between accuracy and authenticity. Historical re-enactments aim to be accurate, they're trying to re-create what happened, from small details (such as uniforms made from materials available in the period, not modern materials) to the movement of armies on a battle-field. In AARs, we are usually trying to be authentic. We may be telling the story of how a leader unified the tribes of the Arabian Peninsula, or how the Belgae stopped Julius Caesar from invading Gaul, if those things happened in our campaign, even if they didn't happen in history.

    I think you're right that accuracy and authenticity feed each other. If, an AAR chapter, we're telling the story of a French infantry officer who fought at Austerlitz, then we might look for details about equipment, uniforms, tactics and organisation of the French, Austrian and Russian forces. Real-life details can add authenticity to a story, even if the story isn't accurate, for example because this battle of Austerlitz is happening during a Napoleon Total War campaign, the player is Russia and the player (and their ally, Austria) will win the battle (even though historically France won).

    There seem to be different ways of creating an authentic atmosphere in an AAR. This doesn't have to be done with physical objects such as weapons, as you said we can do this with the way that characters talk and their attitudes. As I see it, it's up to us how accurate we want our AARs to be.

  3. #3

    Default Re: On the idea of accuracy vs. authenticity...

    One of the method I was wondering about, especially around the idea of accuracy, is how to convey the basic knowledge of a period? I know a "fish out of water" type of character permits a lot (in term of asking questions and the such...) but other than that, I was wondering about other methods to bring the data. I know that, in my story, someone made a comment about my way of bringing some knowledge but, other than spoonfeed the reader, how can it be done?

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    Alwyn's Avatar Frothy Goodness
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    Default Re: On the idea of accuracy vs. authenticity...

    One way to do this is to make the historical details relevant to the characters or the plot. For example, if you've read about spies and code-breaking in the Emperor Napoleon's time, then your AAR could have a plot-line about a spy who needs to break a code. If you're writing about an officer in Napoleon's army who is wounded in battle, you could include the innovations of Dominique Jean Larrey, such as field ambulances and improvements in field hospitals. Having looked at the Wikipedia page on his life, this looks like it could be the basis for an enjoyable AAR, either about his life or the life of a similar character (of course, I know that Wikipedia pages aren't necessarily as reliable as history books, but they can be a good starting point).

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    Default Re: On the idea of accuracy vs. authenticity...

    On the idea of accuracy vs. authenticity...
    Go the way of accuracy if you want to inform your readers about historical matters.
    Go the way of authenticity if you want to entertain them.
    Neither is possible in its entirety, so brainstorm about what goals you want to achieve with your story, and set your scale to the balance between accuracy and authenticity based on it.
    It's as simple as that.

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    Skotos of Sinope's Avatar Macstre Gaposal
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    Default Re: On the idea of accuracy vs. authenticity...

    Quote Originally Posted by JB2C View Post
    One of the method I was wondering about, especially around the idea of accuracy, is how to convey the basic knowledge of a period? I know a "fish out of water" type of character permits a lot (in term of asking questions and the such...) but other than that, I was wondering about other methods to bring the data. I know that, in my story, someone made a comment about my way of bringing some knowledge but, other than spoonfeed the reader, how can it be done?
    One thing I've done, that you could always try, is a "found document" approach to the narrative. In Last Chariots of the Tarquins, I have a Roman who is translating the letters of an Etruscan, and he'll occasionally comment or make an explanation of what this means or what that means, and so on. There's a lot of ways you could do this, but the principle is just putting a narrator in there who will be trying to explain what's happening to a different audience that may not be familiar what's going on.

  7. #7

    Default Re: On the idea of accuracy vs. authenticity...

    Tks for the peoples that took time to give comments, ideas and thoughts into this little subject.

    Quote Originally Posted by Skotos of Sinope View Post
    One thing I've done, that you could always try, is a "found document" approach to the narrative.
    Must say this one hit a little mark... Interesting idea!

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    Dismounted Feudal Knight's Avatar my horse for a unicode
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    Default Re: On the idea of accuracy vs. authenticity...

    It's a rabbit hole, but it's not a bad one per se.

    My attitude, which will probably be greeted with very mixed reception, is this. Our knowledge of history, especially very far back, is driven by assumptions built on ancient ruins (some moderately intact, some where a lot of assumption patches things together), written sources with tweaked meanings as language in the world at large has moved on (and human biases and writing implications already excluding them from being gosple), and a critical lack of in-context evidence. What I welcome most is a slice of life writing, and there's just a shortage of that as far as I can tell. Naturally. Writing about how you do things in your daily life just doesn't strike people as much of a topic as giving their perception on events and noting what they thought was important - which means that they are probably missing immense amounts of private details, people of key influence, and a general sense of objectivity with which we can say "this is how it was, period".

    Short of that degree of concrete evidence, I believe the upmost of historical accuracy is impossible. Equipment and the like can be referenced pretty well, but colloquialisms, exact procession of events, so on and so forth are yours to work with. The 'found source' handwave is a good example of how this is true - we could find a new source any day, and who's to say your random take on something that at least has a logical base isn't something that might have been done?

    I consider the best way to impart the 'themes' and 'spirit' of a period (to expand the scope of your later question) is to treat them as the words I just used. Blend the facts into their lives. Make them off-hand notes, make the use of candles a thing treated like flicking a light switch (presumably more detail and even a bit of multitasking since it's obviously not the same effort), imagine the scene as though you are there with as many details as you can, and draw up the important things to convey in a given post. This, again, will probably be controversial, but I value a narrative that treats the historical element as natural and built as part of the scene in over something that drives to be a historical reference with relatively low subtlety or, god forbid, is effectively a modern writing with 'see, here's a historical thing!' thrown in everywhere and post length padded out by literal history book material. I don't think you need to be striving to impart historical details if you have a good level of detail and can grasp the scene you're trying to convey as an image to impart.

  9. #9

    Default Re: On the idea of accuracy vs. authenticity...

    [QUOTE=CommodusIV;15836223
    My attitude, which will probably be greeted with very mixed reception, is this. Our knowledge of history, especially very far back, is driven by assumptions built on ancient ruins (some moderately intact, some where a lot of assumption patches things together), written sources with tweaked meanings as language in the world at large has moved on (and human biases and writing implications already excluding them from being gosple), and a critical lack of in-context evidence. What I welcome most is a slice of life writing, and there's just a shortage of that as far as I can tell. Naturally. Writing about how you do things in your daily life just doesn't strike people as much of a topic as giving their perception on events and noting what they thought was important - which means that they are probably missing immense amounts of private details, people of key influence, and a general sense of objectivity with which we can say "this is how it was, period".
    [/QUOTE]

    Very mixed reception was an interesting coin of phrase

    I think the idea of "spirit" is something I'll look into a bit more deeply... Other than trying to find ways/objects to convey infos, I must admit that the posture of "coneying a spirit" might be easier (at least, in a"thriving for authenticity" kind of way...)

  10. #10
    Caillagh de Bodemloze's Avatar to rede I me delyte
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    Default Re: On the idea of accuracy vs. authenticity...

    Just to add a random thought to everyone else's excellent suggestions, I think it might also be worth asking yourself how much your readers need to know about the setting. If you try to put too much information (of any kind) into a story, that slows down the story. For some styles of writing, and some stories, a gently-moving story is exactly what you want, of course. But even then, if you overload your writing with information, it can start to be rather dry. Alwyn's suggestion of making the period details relevant to the plot is a good one, I think. For details that aren't important to the plot, though, I think sometimes you can get away with just leaving them out - as long as that doesn't make the story feel too modern. (I think this probably also fits quite well with the idea of conveying the 'spirit' of a historical period.)

    As with so many things, the amount of historical detail you need or want to have is a matter of personal preference, though, of course.






  11. #11

    Default Re: On the idea of accuracy vs. authenticity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Caillagh de Bodemloze View Post
    For details that aren't important to the plot, though, I think sometimes you can get away with just leaving them out - as long as that doesn't make the story feel too modern. (I think this probably also fits quite well with the idea of conveying the 'spirit' of a historical period.)

    As with so many things, the amount of historical detail you need or want to have is a matter of personal preference, though, of course.
    Of course a curation of the data should be done beforehand. What I wanted to have in the the thread, in general, was to get ideas on curation method by basically thinking about the vehicles to use to convey the details that I felt necessarry to the comprehension of the story. I got some new thoughts and idea on all of this and still brewing things over...

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    Caillagh de Bodemloze's Avatar to rede I me delyte
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    Default Re: On the idea of accuracy vs. authenticity...

    I consider the question "What do the readers need to know?" to be a valid method of what you're terming 'curation', if I understand the word correctly in this context. Other methods are, of course, also valuable, and I would expect any writer to use more than one method of deciding what historical information to include or leave out. But I've read a fair number of books where it seems clear to me that the author included all the information that interested them without stopping to ask themselves whether the readers would either need it or care about it, so it seems reasonable to me to add "What do the readers need to know?" to the other suggestions above.

    Personal preferences and styles vary enormously, naturally, so you should make use of the suggestions you find helpful and ignore the rest - but even those suggestions that don't benefit you might perhaps be useful to other people who read this thread.






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    Dismounted Feudal Knight's Avatar my horse for a unicode
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    Default Re: On the idea of accuracy vs. authenticity...

    Quote Originally Posted by Caillagh de Bodemloze View Post
    But I've read a fair number of books where it seems clear to me that the author included all the information that interested them without stopping to ask themselves whether the readers would either need it or care about it, so it seems reasonable to me to add "What do the readers need to know?" to the other suggestions above.
    Rome 2's officially sponsored Destroy Carthage I feel fell into this trap bigtime. Imparting historical tidbits was probably core to the premise, but the explanations in dialogue especially and with descriptions in general often felt forced.

  14. #14

    Default Re: On the idea of accuracy vs. authenticity...

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    Rome 2's officially sponsored Destroy Carthage I feel fell into this trap bigtime. Imparting historical tidbits was probably core to the premise, but the explanations in dialogue especially and with descriptions in general often felt forced.
    Well, I don't have a writing that is to the level required to be paid to write something so, I think it shouldn't be a problem for me!

  15. #15

    Default Re: On the idea of accuracy vs. authenticity...

    I am a bit late to this party, but I thought I'd add my two cents, on the off chance it may prove useful. First of all, I think that the first posts of CommodusIV and Caillagh hit really important points. Since you seem to be interested in writing stories (and not history books), it is important to always be sure you aren't overloading the text with unnecessary stuff. Your first order of business is to keep the reader engaged and willing to keep going, and if your text is dragged down by all kinds of irrelevant jibber-jabber then readers will start to walk away. This is the case regardless of whether or not those details are factual and well-researched. Readers want to be entertained, pure and simple.

    That being said, there are also readers who want to informed and educated as well. Importantly, they want to be educated in addition to being entertained. This means that info and facts might be welcomed, but you still need a strong story that moves forward, and the facts/info need to blend easily into that story. To me, the best way to do this is to subtly include factual things without making a big deal of them. Make small reference to religious rites of the area (without going into great depth), if there is some historical fact that demands attention from the protagonists, make that clear, and above all, make sure you don't make mistakes. In fact, I think that final point is the most important point of all. Which brings me to a larger thought I had on reading the OP.

    You talk about accuracy vs. authenticity, but I think the focus on accuracy is misleading you a bit. A good piece of historical fiction definitely can't have historically inaccurate things, but this does not mean you have to add in details to show that there is accuracy. That is because your focus shouldn't be on accuracy at all, but rather on immersion. Include the bits of history that transport your reader to the time and place of your narrative, and be very certain that you have no mistakes that will take them out of that time and place. But beyond that, I don't think you need to pay any special attention to adding in this historical detail, or spelling out that one. Just tell your story, and build in the things that will make your reader feel it come to life. Some of those will be historical. Some will be geographical. Some will be psychological... So yeah, to make a long story short, focus on immersion. And if you need an astoundingly good guide to blending history with story, check out Skotos' Last Chariots of the Tarquins. In that he gives so much information, but it is always story relevant, and the results are brilliant! Honestly, I think that should just be your go-to for learning more about writing a good AAR
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  16. #16

    Default Re: On the idea of accuracy vs. authenticity...

    Hey Kilo,

    Tks for coming in. I think you are right about the "entertain first"...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilo11 View Post
    Skotos' Last Chariots of the Tarquins. In that he gives so much information, but it is always story relevant, and the results are brilliant!
    Already reading it Tks for the suggestion anyway!

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