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Thread: Total War Saga: TROY - general discussion

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    Would you not agree that since this is a Saga title, the choice of period is not inappropriate? For a main line total war game, certainly, but - and I know success can't be used to call this a viable metric - the precedence so far is limited context and narrative basis, making a fully fledged sandbox oozing diversity of content not required to get by. Surely there's enough to be done, if done right, to make something of a deliberately smaller scope play well.
    Actually I wouldn't. The Saga titles are supposed to be based on the limited timescale and area. But from my humble opinion, the choice of the Trojan War is too limited even for a Saga title. But it doesn't matter actually. Their choice is made now, and so is mine as well
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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    The main crux might be that CA is trying to make broader spectrum of games. Nobody has to play all possible TWs. For example ToB is nicely introduction game for casual players. They don´t have to play full 60 + DLCs or even a few 100 for full Wh1/2. Just 40 and for that it was pretty rounder game. OF course almost every veteran of TWs would like something more in it but honestly that is normal for any TWs. For every 10 Players, 11 opinions and wish list what sould be in and what not.

    I was also speculated and wanted Bronze Age Collapse game with whole Middle-east area from Egypt to Babylon and almost to Sicily...but this is Saga game. It is not WH2 "let´s put in every playable faction".
    DMR: (R2) (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Actually I wouldn't. The Saga titles are supposed to be based on the limited timescale and area. But from my humble opinion, the choice of the Trojan War is too limited even for a Saga title. But it doesn't matter actually. Their choice is made now, and so is mine as well
    To each their own, I suppose.

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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lifthrasir View Post
    Actually I wouldn't. The Saga titles are supposed to be based on the limited timescale and area. But from my humble opinion, the choice of the Trojan War is too limited even for a Saga title. But it doesn't matter actually. Their choice is made now, and so is mine as well
    Well, I can't even watch a 3K YouTube video imagine actually paying money and playing it but looking at Steam analysis that game is a record breaker with 10x active players every month more than Rome 2 or WH.

    In the end perhaps the hype will die and not remain like in Rome 2, but what matters is that people bought it. CA doesn't care if they play it only once as long as they got the money and the numbers justified their efforts.

    You can see how good a TW game is by the dedication they get from modders to overhaul them.

    Now, if the tools are there for Troy I wouldn't mind a complete transformation of it into a 4th century BC or later mod as long as the engine is better enough compared to Rome 2 and Attila to justify the effort.

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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Quote Originally Posted by Nikron View Post
    but looking at Steam analysis that game is a record breaker with 10x active players every month more than Rome 2 or WH.
    You should compare 3K with WH2 not WH1,almost all people are in WH2 nowdays...

    WH2
    https://steamdb.info/app/594570/graphs/
    24K 24 hour peak , but all time is just 72K

    3K
    https://steamdb.info/app/779340/graphs/
    11K 24 hour peak, but all time is 192K

    So while 3K had way better initial sales and player count, right now WH2 has twice the numbers of active players..
    DMR: (R2) (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Even the old, old, old Rome II has still many active players.^^

    7 K 24 hours peak, but alltime 113 k

    https://steamdb.info/app/214950/graphs/
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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Empire Total War was the best selling TW game of all time, according to this list, with Rome II a close second. I'm curious how well Troy will do, I imagine it may do decently well if they don't make the map too small and unattractive to play on.

    I'm not really sure whether 3k has done better than RII or ETW, since initial sales matter most generally with games. Does anyone know if 3k has managed to top ETW?
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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    With 3K their focus was very much the Chinese market which is obviously a huge one. Without China, I guess, their sales would be relatively low as compared to WH or R2.

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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Problem for overall sales is, ETW is 2009 and R2 is 2013. So they were so many times on discount sales...Important is dynamics. Wh1, Wh2 then 3K each one was selling quicker than previous one. Wh2 is according to steamDB 2-5 millions owners and 3K already too. Then 3K is lately getting massive bomb reviews and other TWs also to some degree..
    DMR: (R2) (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Quote Originally Posted by ~Seleukos.I.Nikator~ View Post
    With 3K their focus was very much the Chinese market which is obviously a huge one. Without China, I guess, their sales would be relatively low as compared to WH or R2.
    I agree, it was not very appealing to me and normally I do buy TW games, aside from Britannia which I also avoided due to it apparently being too easy and too expensive for what you get.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    Problem for overall sales is, ETW is 2009 and R2 is 2013. So they were so many times on discount sales...Important is dynamics. Wh1, Wh2 then 3K each one was selling quicker than previous one. Wh2 is according to steamDB 2-5 millions owners and 3K already too. Then 3K is lately getting massive bomb reviews and other TWs also to some degree..
    I do agree to an extent but if you look at the release dates for WH and WH2, WH was in 2016 and had only sold 2m units total around 2 years later but within the first 3 days it had sold over 500'000 units. Warhammer II on the other hand only had just under 1m units total sold, 1 year after it's release which is quite odd but then no comment seems to have been made about its sales numbers officially. It makes you wonder how Warhammer III will do, hopefully not too badly as I do enjoy those games and own them!


    Honestly, I do wonder if any new games will manage to outsell older games, because even with sales not many people might be interested in playing older warscape games. I know I am not that interested in playing ETW / NTW without coop. Even if I like to play M2TW still, it is because it has many gigantic new campaign maps with mods to try, which entirely change the game in every way.

    I don't think warscape (TWEngine 3) based TW games have the longevity they once had due to modding, with campaign maps not being changeable. Although the Last Alliance project does hold out some hope, only S2TW of all the newer games can have the campaign map changed successfully so far.
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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    I guess it depends how many people base their choice on sales statistics. I don't but I'm an 'old fashion' guy I'm wondering how it works for the youngers
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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Quote Originally Posted by Mhaedros View Post
    Maybe Total War just isn't for you anymore.
    Maybe,.. maybe I will be "that guy" after 10/15 years who says, I haven't bought a game since 3K...

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    And if there's another Bronze Age game, it'll probably be based on the Bible or some other BS myth.
    Honestly I wouldn't count on ever getting a semi-accurate TW game on any historical era. There are glaring issues that have plagued every TW title since at least Rome I (the earliest one I've played), and probably before. Well at least "3K" and "Troy" are a break from the boring Warhammer scenario.
    I am already looking forward to "Total War: Moses" No grand armies, just God doing his thing. The Egyptians still won't know what hit them! The end game is claiming the "Promised Land" and you will have the ability to create your own Ark of the Covenant.

    Quote Originally Posted by LestaT View Post
    So, what is a Total War game?

    Which game is a Total War game?
    Total War started off being all about the battles. When I first played Shogun I was blown away given what had proceeded it. Over time, they correctly added more campaign elements to bring more realistic "Total War" dynamics. Despite very little development of the tactical battles, each of the titles felt like you were still playing an epic war. Shogun, Med, Rome, Med2, ETW, NTW, S2, R2, ATW, and ToB all shared similar elements. They were based within a historical context. They were centered on factual history, IMHO, within a reasonable degree of accuracy*. 3K and now TWT are no longer in that category. They are games based on the world of fantasy. Animated duels, for example, are not based on historical accounts, but more inspired by legendary fantasy and a favorite of Hollywood movies. Moreover, 3k was supposed have been developed by the "Historical" team, not the fantasy team. If there have been one consistent cry from the fanbase is a greater adherence to historical accuracy, not less. Total War has always been about putting you in a historical time period, now, they put you in a story book. If you cannot tell the difference, then I honestly do not know what to say.
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  13. #113
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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Well, in my opinion, the situation is the complete opposite, actually. The campaign is the principal foundation of the Total War franchise and it's precisely this aspect of the game that has been downgrading since Empire, with the possible exception of Three Kingdoms. Without the deeper context of the campaign, battles would quickly feel repetitive and boring, which is probably why custom, quick and historical battles are generally ignored, in comparison with the campaign option of the main menu. Meanwhile, building slots have dramatically decreased, replenishment has been automatic and free, the administrative and fiscal systems have been simplified, diplomacy is now conducted in a Skype-like chat room and army management has been significantly curtailed with the implementation of the artificial limits in Rome II.

    Battles have essentially remained the same, but they can also boast of several small additions, like magical abilities, duels, amphibious warfare, naval bombardment and etc. According to my estimation, all this reveals a conscious strategy of minimising the time spent in the campaign map, for the benefit of visually more spectacular battles, in what is presumably an effort to render the games more friendly towards potential customers. There are some exceptional initiatives that point towards the opposite direction, like the nuanced diplomacy of the last tent-pole game, but, even in that case, the flagship of the marketing campaign remained a strictly battle feature, that of heroic combats between supernaturally strong protagonists.

    Concerning the debate between fantasy and history, duels are definitely a crucial step towards the former, but I really doubt about how drastic and extraordinary it was. In Napoleon and the Augustus DLC, several characters are simply immortal (Duke of Wellington, Kutuzov, Marcus Antonius, Aemilius Lepidus and etc.). In the expansion of Rome II, the Huns get miraculously revived and Attila needs to be killed at least thrice, before he dies permanently. There are many more violations of natural laws, but these specific examples convincingly illustrate the not so recent origins of the indestructible warlords of 2th century China and Bronze Age Greece. Changes were gradual and slow and if something appears sudden and preposterous, it probably indicates that our own tastes have evolved and not that Creative Assembly made a 180° turn. Just my two cents.

  14. #114

    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    You make a compelling argument Abdul, and I'd largely agree. There are some things I'd like to bring up though. Before the Warscape 2 engine, i.e. pre-Empire, while the campaign map was definitely much more nuanced (and more realistic, imo), you would inevitably get into a situation where you'd spent hours fighting dozens of battles trying to get through endless enemy stacks. The experience, while not necessarily boring, would eventually wear down even the most seasoned TW player into taking a break for the game. In contrast, the latest titles tend to gravitate towards fewer, but more decisive battles. While the depth of the campaign map has significantly declined, the depth of the battle map has significantly improved. Sure, the battles themselves are still very flawed and the excellent potential of the battle map is hampered by the poor AI. Still, once we reach a point where all elements can be cohesively implemented, the actual capability of the engine is impressive. The naval battles are simply stunning, as is the possibility of amphibious battles. Terrain and line of sight has also been significantly improved, I remember . Artillery works a lot better now since Empire. The only real issue I see now is the command and control of the army, where maintaining a formation can still be a chore for inexperience players. It takes quite a bit of time to get used to all of the controls (I recently got a friend of mine to play a Co-Op with me for the first time).

    While we're talking about the positives, we should also talk about the campaign map. It hasn't only been bad news. The stances of armies and the increased size of army icons and cities, has made navigation and strategic planning a tad bit easier. I'd like to see "interception range" be made a lot bigger, and given more options, so that individual armies can control larger areas of the map. Perhaps make it a function of how many units you have in your army. Map design can also improve. Campaign map design can make a big difference in how the game is played. I would also add that perhaps Total War should go back to "tiles" and make them visible to players for better planning. Take a page out of Hearts of Iron perhaps. The inclusion of "special" settlements and unique effects of buildings that give access to unique bonuses and units has also been positive. Now players have choices on expansion for resources, for better settlements, for specific units or buildings or bonuses. This additional depth makes the game far more interesting than it was before. Perhaps Empire 2: Total War can return us to much greater campaign map depth, while incorporating the excellent elements from Warhammer 2 and Total War Saga.

    I think Total War is on a verge of greatness. They have a lot of really good ingredients, they just need the right mix. I also see ToB, 3K, and Troy as essentially the same game. Total War Saga is more of a collection of 3 expansions, rather than 3 separate games. In that respect, I think whatever comes after the Saga and the Warhammer Trilogy, will be a brand new chapter in Total War. New engine, and perhaps another revolution in the Total War franchise in the same way that Empire was for the current era of Total War games.

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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Lot good points on the series.

    I agree that battle part of games should get some overhaul as it is quite similar for long time. At the same time I could imagine a way more complicated campaign side of the game. Problem is, Saga is not revolution, at best it is evolution. And if we look at a few previous games: R2 - great sales but as well big problems during launch and post launch balance, Attila mostly ignored, lot bad rep even if the game is quite good, similarly ToB is not flop as we learned lately however as hully historical title it felt short. And now Wh1, Wh2 and 3K. They are all superhits with different reasons. Wh1 was much needed new blood after Attila. Wh2 is quite strong not due to release but post release content, DLCs and 3K is super strong due to launch. All of these are connected with Heroes and more fantasy aspects than previous games. So it is natural Ca for their Saga game would choose aspects working as of lately...

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Total War started off being all about the battles. When I first played Shogun I was blown away given what had proceeded it. Over time, they correctly added more campaign elements to bring more realistic "Total War" dynamics. Despite very little development of the tactical battles, each of the titles felt like you were still playing an epic war. Shogun, Med, Rome, Med2, ETW, NTW, S2, R2, ATW, and ToB all shared similar elements. They were based within a historical context. They were centered on factual history, IMHO, within a reasonable degree of accuracy*. 3K and now TWT are no longer in that category. They are games based on the world of fantasy. Animated duels, for example, are not based on historical accounts, but more inspired by legendary fantasy and a favorite of Hollywood movies. Moreover, 3k was supposed have been developed by the "Historical" team, not the fantasy team. If there have been one consistent cry from the fanbase is a greater adherence to historical accuracy, not less. Total War has always been about putting you in a historical time period, now, they put you in a story book. If you cannot tell the difference, then I honestly do not know what to say.
    I would love trully historical epic game. But for that we need not just campaign overhaul but even battle overhaul. Current 3K critique is that the content is falling short in comparison with WH and that is trully showing how to build different factions, units. That is the key, offer different fun with different playthroughs. For example Shogun 2, I finish the game with all factions from all sides and the campaign felt almost identical for majority of time. Only when I made my personal rules to play little differently I was doing something different...

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Meanwhile, building slots have dramatically decreased, replenishment has been automatic and free, the administrative and fiscal systems have been simplified, diplomacy is now conducted in a Skype-like chat room and army management has been significantly curtailed with the implementation of the artificial limits in Rome II.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    The inclusion of "special" settlements and unique effects of buildings that give access to unique bonuses and units has also been positive. Now players have choices on expansion for resources, for better settlements, for specific units or buildings or bonuses. This additional depth makes the game far more interesting than it was before. Perhaps Empire 2: Total War can return us to much greater campaign map depth, while incorporating the excellent elements from Warhammer 2 and Total War Saga.
    I can focus just on one part to illustrate. Our beloved Building slots. It is true current format is basically build upon R2, but 3K/ToB are quite close to Empire/Shogun2 style. What think that R2 manage to add was possible complexity of system. It is no longr about linear building chains, but about branches. And if we look at later games, we have now horde factions, we can raze and resettle (and maybe in far future create fully dynamic settlements) we have now landmarks, faction unique buildings, chains. I can again return to Empire/Napoleon/Shogun 2 where we had just a few uniqie buildings. Honestly I would agree that we can utilize more building slots, but I would actually tie it with city development. Make requirements for those additional slots so hard that not every city can do it. Only those with excellent conditions (food supplies, trade positions....) or with enough cash (border castles) can do it. There is a lot possibilities that can be done and I think the truth is, with every game the game itself is getting more complex. More massive. Maybe it is diluded between factions but at least there are some differencies. Shogun 2 is still haunting my dreams! (And I love that game as one with best feeling,immersion of all TWs)
    DMR: (R2) (Attila) (ToB) (Wh1/2) (3K) (Troy)

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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Concerning campaigns, it has become more of a chore. I hate doing all of those up rank stuff. It is so ridiculously tedious. It is definitely a feature they need to allow the player to automate because it makes playing the game boring. Game management really comes down to recognizing what will be your most scarce resource. Once that is solved, there isn't a challenge unless you up the difficulty which essentially just buffs the AI while reducing your efficiency. That doesn't change the dynamics of the game, it just forces you to deal with less resources while the AI has more resources. When it comes to politics, it is lot of monotonous clicking. In ToB they had a good concept, but it again didn't actually add any nuance to the game, just more clicking. 3K just does it in spades.

    There are many games that have "campaign" element to them. Total War offered a unique experience in offering battles. If they had spent as much time on developing the battle aspects of the game as they did with the campaign, then Total War would be in a much better state. The duels for me single an end probably forever Total War has a tactical game. With Grand tactician coming out soon, I am not sure we "need" Total War. With the last 4 out of 5 titles being fantasy based, it is no loner a historical based game either.
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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    There is a simple way to both increase complexity, and get rid of "boring" mechanics. Have an "advanced" tab and automatic sliders. I.E. the sliders for taxation in Empire:Total War that controlled the whole empire. On each city, under "advanced" you can have fine-tuned controls. Same with character traits.

    Speaking of character traits, I think that it should be more dynamic. For example, getting lots of kills with your cavalry should get you a trait tree for Cavalry command, same with infantry, or logistics, or attrition, and so on. They already have that, but perhaps they can expand on it.

  18. #118

    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Quote Originally Posted by Daruwind View Post
    https://www.pcgamer.com/everything-w...war-saga-troy/


    Now we are speaking. This is exactly what I would like to see. Enviroment playing bigger role, formations, stances making finally sense...
    I completely agree. I'm so glad that CA is willing to try new stuff out and the improvements look to be massively promising. Haven't been this hyped for a TW since R2!

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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    Concerning campaigns, it has become more of a chore. I hate doing all of those up rank stuff. It is so ridiculously tedious. It is definitely a feature they need to allow the player to automate because it makes playing the game boring.
    In Rome II, I don't mind levelling up my characters in the early campaign, but by the late campaign I agree, this becomes a chore. For me, a good solution would be automatic levelling up with an element of choice. For generals, we could allocate them to a character class (commander, strategist or warrior) and they'd level up automatically. It could be similar for agents, for example for a new spy could be allocated as an intelligence-gatherer (to deploy in enemy regions), a scout (to accompany armies) or an assassin, while a dignitary could specialise as a civilian administrator (for regions), military administrator (for armies) or promoter of your culture.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    There is a simple way to both increase complexity, and get rid of "boring" mechanics. Have an "advanced" tab and automatic sliders. I.E. the sliders for taxation in Empire:Total War that controlled the whole empire. On each city, under "advanced" you can have fine-tuned controls. Same with character traits.

    Speaking of character traits, I think that it should be more dynamic. For example, getting lots of kills with your cavalry should get you a trait tree for Cavalry command, same with infantry, or logistics, or attrition, and so on. They already have that, but perhaps they can expand on it.
    Good ideas! Yes, characters could level up more like characters in Skyrim (where, if you keep using a skill such as stealth, you improve in that skill).

    Quote Originally Posted by JupiterMoneta View Post
    I completely agree. I'm so glad that CA is willing to try new stuff out and the improvements look to be massively promising. Haven't been this hyped for a TW since R2!
    Me too, I like the idea of Saga games as places for experimentation. Hopefully, the smaller scope of Sagas makes it easier to make experimental features work decently in those games. Having (hopefully) solved the problems of new features in Saga games, I hope that future launches of major TW games will be in a better state, so we won't see the level of problems which Empire and Rome II had when they were new.

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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    There is a simple way to both increase complexity, and get rid of "boring" mechanics. Have an "advanced" tab and automatic sliders. I.E. the sliders for taxation in Empire:Total War that controlled the whole empire. On each city, under "advanced" you can have fine-tuned controls. Same with character traits.

    Speaking of character traits, I think that it should be more dynamic. For example, getting lots of kills with your cavalry should get you a trait tree for Cavalry command, same with infantry, or logistics, or attrition, and so on. They already have that, but perhaps they can expand on it.
    I do not understand your use of the quotes. I never stated the mechanics were boring, but that the game is boring because the mechanics are tedious. It would be better if their was a system similar to what you described. In my 3K campaign I gave up after a while and once I learned that i could trade those trinkets, I did so asking for more money in return. I used that income to buy more elite troops giving me a better advantage than some of those traits. What drove me crazy are those other traits (if commanding, own troops, if an admin, etc...) There are so many people at some point, I got tired of trying to figure out who what where.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alwyn View Post
    In Rome II, I don't mind levelling up my characters in the early campaign, but by the late campaign I agree, this becomes a chore. For me, a good solution would be automatic levelling up with an element of choice. For generals, we could allocate them to a character class (commander, strategist or warrior) and they'd level up automatically. It could be similar for agents, for example for a new spy could be allocated as an intelligence-gatherer (to deploy in enemy regions), a scout (to accompany armies) or an assassin, while a dignitary could specialise as a civilian administrator (for regions), military administrator (for armies) or promoter of your culture.
    Better too
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