Total War Saga: TROY - general discussion

[PikeStance]

Why is that an issue with Troy specifically? Many aspects revolving around past eras were also based on mostly fantasy. However, it shouldn't be hard to explain what fantasy elements there are in the game. Or you have nothing to add to what Daruwind said?

What does Daruwind have to do with me? My original post was in response to what Darios wrote and then you responded. I don't consider ETW, NTW, S2TW, R2, ATW, TOB, etc... to be mostly fantasy.

[PointOfViewGun]

What does Daruwind have to do with me? My original post was in response to what Darios wrote and then you responded. I don't consider ETW, NTW, S2TW, R2, ATW, TOB, etc... to be mostly fantasy.

Neither do I and that's the point. When some of those games' content relied on fantasy sources there weren't many people calling those games fantasy. Daruwind attempted to explain what he saw as fantasy in the game. You basically declined to explain what's fantasy about Troy. Hence, I asked you if you had nothing to add to what Daruwind pointed out.

[PikeStance]

I think you are confused. I a not here to debate. I just shared my commentary of my impression of the game thus far. it isn't for me because of the fantasy aspect of the game. Now, if you like it, have fun. I am not a fan.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Having played around with the economy for a while, I'm not sure if I think this resource system is actually a way forward. The 5 resources are fairly evenly spread across the map, and they don't end up with richer/poorer exploitation based on location except gold. Because you'll need all of them for most of the game, there's not an incentive to prioritize certain settlements unless you're really hurting for a single resource. You tend to need them in different amounts, but the game already compensates for this by making food and wood far more plentiful. Bartering around is common early game, as you're limited to a province or two, but by mid game you generally don't need to think about it that much.

More specifically, they all basically function the same. So you end up with just 5 different kinds of money. It doesn't really open up new strategic gameplay options if you're rich in a certain type. At best, you get to buy things faster and get pestered with more terrible barter requests from the AI. It's not helped that it's really easy to buffer any shortage you have because the diplomatic AI is very generous with its offers (and has a very easy exploit).

The old trade good system was hard to parse and was hampered by poor map placement, but some recent titles did start trying to make control of certain resources more impactful to your overall strategy, affecting technology, infrastructure, and unit choices as well as guiding your expansion route through the game. The only resource I ever felt limited by in Troy was bronze, and that ended up being easily solved with a couple barter deals.

This is also my observation. But there's much potential for modding in this area. I hope most of the parameters will be adjustable and somebody would develop a good system.
BTW, what do you mean by "old trade good system"? In my opinion, the most "historical" trade system in TW games was that of Med2. In the R2TW or ATW I'd always send one boat around to get any trade by the sea possible (quite unrealistic).

[PointOfViewGun]

I think you are confused. I a not here to debate. I just shared my commentary of my impression of the game thus far. it isn't for me because of the fantasy aspect of the game. Now, if you like it, have fun. I am not a fan.

Sigh... You seem to be confused about your comments. Correction: You're not here to substantiate your comment. You quoted my post and asked how a fantasy story turned realistic somehow morphs into a historical game. I asked you to substantiate that. Now you're acting as if you're floating above us all. This isn't quantum mechanics.

[Spartan198]

Just wait for the stean release.

Yeah, for $59.99. When was the last time CA released a title halfway worth paying for?

[zoner16]

BTW, what do you mean by "old trade good system"? In my opinion, the most "historical" trade system in TW games was that of Med2. In the R2TW or ATW I'd always send one boat around to get any trade by the sea possible (quite unrealistic).

Ever since Empire, the trade goods have had a fairly basic framework: A province will be capable of producing a certain kind of good, you build infrastructure to exploit that good type, and then you can trade what you exploit to anyone who doesn't have access to it by setting up trade routes. This was very important for a number of reasons, but the primary benefits was that it helped with was making certain regions more or less valuable and changed up your capabilities depending on what you had access to. You needed control of a province to access the resource, infrastructure technology and investment to exploit it to the best degree possible, and diplomatic/naval reach in order to trade it all over the place. Certain games also made it so that you'd get bonuses for having access to the trade good or the infrastructure that it spawned. Shogun 2 is probably my favorite here, as smart provincial planning could let you stack bonuses on units you recruited in a region to help them punch well above their weight class in certain respects.

It guided strategy and opened up different kinds of development strategies depending on what you had available. If you were getting a lot of your money through overseas trade, you needed a navy to defend that. If you got ahold of a province that could give you huge armor bonuses to units thanks to a blacksmith, you might rethink your army composition to make use of it. If you needed a resource that wasn't anywhere nearby in order to continue developing your cities, you'd either have to plan an invasion or make nice with someone who could sell it to you. It's a good way of showcasing the historical drive for resources by making economics about more than just tax and tariff revenue.

All the pieces of a good trading system are scattered across the various titles: Empire's global market and trade nodes, Shogun 2's bonus system, 3K's actually defendable production sites, Medieval 2's city-city trade modeling, Napoleon's well balanced growth system that let you sacrifice taxes for commerce without breaking everything, Thrones's unrestricted trading. Someday, I hope a title can put them all together so economic play in actually viable.

I don't find the scouting for trade partners to be unrealistic. It was fairly common for civilizations to send expeditions with the concern of establishing contact and setting up commercial ties, especially when they needed certain resources. That's essentially what you're doing.

[herne_the _hunter]

I've played 3 hours of Troy so far and haven't touched it since. Which is 1 hour more than I've played of Thrones before I uninstalled it. It's shame it's a Saga title rather than a full blown Total War. Fall of the Samurai never had this problem but that was a stand alone expansion for a main title. CA Sofia have done a good job but it's just not gripping me.

[LestaT]

Not really interested is Troy story though I like the movie. Wasnt really paying attention to the previews before the game released. Maybe the only recent games from CA that I dont feel the need to watch live streams before the game came out. I may not even buy or preorder it of it's being sold the normal way since I'm prettt bored with European history lessons already.

However, since it's free I decided to download and play a bit and found that I really like the gameplay eventhough not much the setting or the time period. 3K may be CA's version of Paradox games but Troy is more to me like CA's version of AOE games, which happened to be the games (AOE 1 & 2) that got me hooked on strange games.

I dont play much battles (just auto resolve mosr of the time) so I wouldnt comment much on that but the campaign map feels lovely. A bit complex with more 'usable' resources (rather than just for trades with earlier games) which I feel expanded even more on what 3K has build and I find that I like it very much.

The UI takes a bit longer getting used to though (I find it quicker with Warhammer and 3K) but maybe because I have been following those games pre release.

Anywah, I only play about 2 hours on release day and havent played it (or any games) since then but I'll surely revesit the game again one day to complete my Hector campaign.

[stevehoos]

I don't know why any of you really have any modding interest in these titles anymore? Total conversion mods are a thing of the past.

[PikeStance]

Sigh... You seem to be confused about your comments. Correction: You're not here to substantiate your comment. You quoted my post and asked how a fantasy story turned realistic somehow morphs into a historical game. I asked you to substantiate that. Now you're acting as if you're floating above us all. This isn't quantum mechanics.

You never answered the question. Daruwind gave his reasoning on why he thinks it is what it is, but you seem intent on not doing the same. It is as if you only want to play the contrarian; always critiquing other's POV, but never articulating your own.

I don't know why any of you really have any modding interest in these titles anymore? Total conversion mods are a thing of the past.

I don't know why people think modding is only modding if it is a "total conversion." Modding stands for modification, so any modification that "improves" the game functionally, visually, and auditory is a mod and is worth doing if it improves the player's experience. Granted, it would be nice to make alterations to borders, etc,... but it is not an inhibitor to modding in general. If you enjoy the game and you see a way of making it better, then it is always worth doing and sharing.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I don't know why any of you really have any modding interest in these titles anymore? Total conversion mods are a thing of the past.

These are two questions. We see numerous small mods on Steam, perhaps on Discord, CA and other forums, so modding interest is there.
However, imo the total conversions were born out of 1. large numbers of players interested in a subject / period of history / local history, 2. flexibility of modding, esp. the map and script.
In this sense I think the total conversions look like things of the past, unless CA botches up his policy. Witness the MKTW (or 1212) mod - it's born out of the need for having Medieval 3 despite lack of flexibility of the engine (Attila map is not really up to the needs of Med 3, but it's the closest you can get). I also think that the Med2 modding scene will close once we've got something Med3 like. But it's unlikely to happen over the next 4+ years, imo.

[PointOfViewGun]

You never answered the question. Daruwind gave his reasoning on why he thinks it is what it is, but you seem intent on not doing the same. It is as if you only want to play the contrarian; always critiquing other's POV, but never articulating your own.

Clearly, the irony of saying that while doing just that doesn't occur to you. As I said, this is no quantum mechanics. If you didn't have a well thought, heck even half decently thought position, it was pointless to throw it there. Trying to deflect like this doesn't accomplish anything.

[Heathen Hammer]

Is there a way to set war targets in diplomacy screen?

[Lord Baal]

Rome modding scene has not dissapeared after all this time, in fact they just released a naval battles mod that well, is pretty self explanatory.I like Call of Warhammer and all its variants more than Total Warhammer because my system can run it and I like some gameplay features that CA failed to implement on Total Warhammer while also not adding some. The building system, the forced and arcadey caps on everything, the lack of naval battles, the lack of real sandbox with forced leaders that cant die or be replaced and hence no family trees, no reload animations for basic human units, underwellming sieges, no dismounting units... and I know some of those things arent in med 2 either but its an older game, Total Warhammer came after all those things were developed.

Not saying Total Warhammer or say Troy are bad games per se, but so many things that CA had developed only to arbitrarily remove after in the next installement, they have become disapointing in one way or another.Troy should problably had been stellar in my opinion had they added navan battles. All this of course is highly subjective.

[PikeStance]

Clearly, the irony of saying that while doing just that doesn't occur to you. As I said, this is no quantum mechanics. If you didn't have a well thought, heck even half decently thought position, it was pointless to throw it there. Trying to deflect like this doesn't accomplish anything.

Irony?
So you still not going to explain your position???

Rome modding scene has nit dissapeared after all this time, in fact they jusy released a naval battles mod that well, is pretty self explanatory.I like Call of Warhammer and all its variants more than Total Warhammer because my system can run it and I like some gameplay features that CA failed to implement on Total Warhammer while also not adding some. The building system, the forced and arcadey caps on everything, the lack of naval battles, the lack of real sandbox with forced leaders that cant die or be replaced and hence no family trees, no reload animations for basic human units, underwellming sieges, no dismounting units...Not saying Total Warhammer or say Troy are bad games per se, but so many things that CA had developed only to arbitrarily remove after in the next installement, they have become disapointing in one way or another.Troy should problably had been stellar in my opinion had they added navan battles.All this of course is highly subjective.

What? No Odysseus. LOL

[agnes69]

because my system can run

A new PC will make you happy.

[PointOfViewGun]

Irony?
So you still not going to explain your position???

Yes, the same irony of you asking me to explain my position when you're deflecting from me asking you that question while you're being argumentative for no reason.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Currently Troy is a mythical history game. Without all our historical apparatus developed within rational criticism, everybody would consider it to be perfectly historical (so until 19-20 century, and in many (most?) parts of our world until today). I have no qualms about that.

I hope that after modders get their hands dirty and will use all oportunities provided by CA, a historical mod would appear (using the same map, obviously). Or, like in the case of the Thrones, there'll be none really good...

I fear that the major problem will remain despite all the efforts: “Sniping groups of armies”. There's a good mechanism making it hard for the player to mobilise more armies, but once you've got two, then you go in pairs and autoresolve anything that stands on your way.

[PikeStance]

I don't know. I might be a nonredeemable purist, but there isn't a compromise with history. If any element of fantasy is included, then it is fantasy. This is excluding "reasonable guesstimation" if uncertain. I also do not mind generalization which allows modders to make up the shortfalls.

I only bought 3K because it was set in China and there was a halfhearted attempt of a non-fantasy mode. Troy is a fantasy game that might as well be Warhammer. If I am really desperate for Bronze Age, I will keep a keen eye for the development of the mod for Rome II. Of course, if someone were to make a "Historical" version of Troy then I might be tempted.

With their clear attempt to turn a fantasy story into a realistic one what fantasy element is in the game?

With their clear attempt to turn a fantasy story into a realistic one what fantasy element is in the game?
You answered your own question. I mean I am not sure how a fantasy story turned realistic somehow morphs into a historical game? .

Yes, the same irony of you asking me to explain my position when you're deflecting from me asking you that question while you're being argumentative for no reason.

My first response was in response to Darios. It was an elaboration of that post. For some reason you later brought up Daruwind. Anyway, you wrote what is in blue. I do not understand what you mean by that if you didn't answer your own question. I don' know what you are talking about and you refuse to even elaborate. You brought it up so the least you could do is to explain it so that we all understand your position.

It is like on judge Judy, those fools that counter sue for harassment. Judge Judy, " if you pay them their money, they would be harassing you." So, elaborate and i will stop asking you to.