Total War Saga: TROY - general discussion

[Lord Baal]

Unless the Troy is in great quality right after launch

Sadly, that's quite an unreasonable petition these days in general, and to CA particularly since... ever?

[WibblyWWonder]

CA will do alright from it. They will make a shedload from the blood DLC (boo!) and a likely follow-up faction/epic hero DLC (yay!). Epic hasn't been shy about advertising the game in their launcher. Besides, the game looks like it will be more popular than ThroB - which still made money for CA despite a savage initial reaction, I believe. One advantage that Troy already has over ThroB is that the units have more variety and overall look much more interesting to use. Another is that the battles and battlefields seem to promise more tactical choices whereas in ThroB it was basically form shieldwall and work from there.

On the flipside, I'm not that keen on the bartering/trading goods economy that they've developed. I just don't find that stuff interesting and dislike flipping through multiple tabs on the campaign screen: I find 3K a bloated chore to play. Didn't like the Paradox games at all when I tried them. I'm also disappointed that there appears to be no real population or manpower mechanic, yet again. AI stack spam and grindy campaigns have worn away my enthusiasm for engaging in long campaigns since Rome 2. It really does suck to pull off a victory against the odds, only for an even more powerful bunch of enemy stacks to turn up shortly after. The absolute nadir being the cheat fest AI in the Rise of the Republic DLC. That one almost ended my TW hobby once and for all. But that's a minority opinion I reckon, I think most would welcome more campaign map work.

[Darios]

I believe that Darren is being a bit too hard on Troy. Total War battles have been a bit awkward ever since CA began using this engine with Empire Total War. The game honestly strikes me as a fair balance between history (those who yearn for more games like Rome 2) and fantasy (those who like the heroes, mythic beasts, etc of the Warhammer games). It's also the Bronze Age, so the fanbase can't really complain too much about historical accuracy. Free of those restraints - it is game that CA is probably really having fun putting together.

CA put a lot of great work into ToB but ultimately the game is boring because there is nothing strategic or vaguely interesting about the scenario. At the end of the day, it is about blonde barbarian tribes fighting over one big island (Great Britain) and a smaller one (Ireland). It is a very obscure piece of history that you really have to be a fan of in order to enjoy playing. Fighting over Greece, the Aegean, and Western Anatolia should prove to provide far more strategic opportunities and cultural / unit diversity for a mainstream Total War gamer.

I wish the map extended a far deeper into Anatolia in order to potentially include the Hittites as a proverbial "Big Bad," but at least we have the Lycians, who promise to provide that "Near East" element that a Bronze Age era game should have.

I'm really excited over Troy and I hope that ultimately get DLCs for Memnon, Ajax, Diomedes, etc. I'm curious to see how the Amazons will look and some proto-Thracians or Minoans would also be cool.

[SargKael]

Looks like it'll be a fun game and I like the story of Troy. Not interested in Epic so i'll just wait for it to be released on Steam. Maybe by then it'll be patched enough that it'll be the game it's suppose to be like other TW games.

[AqD]

Are they going to place Troy around the Baltic sea to reflect real history?

[KLAssurbanipal]

Troy elements will be added to Total War: Elysium:

https://www.totalwar.com/blog/total-...-forging-troy/

[Lord Baal]

Total Gathering Oh!

[PikeStance]

I believe that Darren is being a bit too hard on Troy. Total War battles have been a bit awkward ever since CA began using this engine with Empire Total War. The game honestly strikes me as a fair balance between history (those who yearn for more games like Rome 2) and fantasy (those who like the heroes, mythic beasts, etc of the Warhammer games). It's also the Bronze Age, so the fanbase can't really complain too much about historical accuracy. Free of those restraints - it is game that CA is probably really having fun putting together.

I don't know. I might be a nonredeemable purist, but there isn't a compromise with history. If any element of fantasy is included, then it is fantasy. This is excluding "reasonable guesstimation" if uncertain. I also do not mind generalization which allows modders to make up the shortfalls.

I only bought 3K because it was set in China and there was a halfhearted attempt of a non-fantasy mode. Troy is a fantasy game that might as well be Warhammer. If I am really desperate for Bronze Age, I will keep a keen eye for the development of the mod for Rome II. Of course, if someone were to make a "Historical" version of Troy then I might be tempted.

[PointOfViewGun]

I don't know. I might be a nonredeemable purist, but there isn't a compromise with history. If any element of fantasy is included, then it is fantasy. This is excluding "reasonable guesstimation" if uncertain. I also do not mind generalization which allows modders to make up the shortfalls.

I only bought 3K because it was set in China and there was a halfhearted attempt of a non-fantasy mode. Troy is a fantasy game that might as well be Warhammer. If I am really desperate for Bronze Age, I will keep a keen eye for the development of the mod for Rome II. Of course, if someone were to make a "Historical" version of Troy then I might be tempted.

With their clear attempt to turn a fantasy story into a realistic one what fantasy element is in the game?

[Jurand of Cracow]

In the context of discussion fantasy/history, I wonder what do you think about economy in the game?

[Daruwind]

With their clear attempt to turn a fantasy story into a realistic one what fantasy element is in the game?

-Mostly the Hero abilities, many of those are comparable to Wh(s) ones.
-Gods favours, significant bonuses with 100% certainty.
-Many characters, Amazons

See, I´m the last person having problems with such stuff but either they want to make historical game or fantasy one. :-) Look how units are in way keep in possible "historical" way and then you get hero with ressurection abilitity...Horses are rare except amazons have tons of spare ones and so and so. And gods, I would prefer some dilemas, some shaping or altering my direction in game but the system we saw is directly spend resources -> gain bonuses.

EDIT:

In the context of discussion fantasy/history, I wonder what do you think about economy in the game?

Oh yeah! That´s is the one aspect I´m most curious to see and try myself. I hope such advance system will make it into future TWs games no matter if fantasy or historical ones. I mean the general system. All those spending on gods favour, or Sarpedon unique resources for unique buffs or Aneas speaking with dead....I can easily see equivalents in purely historical way like spending resources for public events (festivities), trade, negotiating..... :-)

Actually I wrote not so long ago quite long post about it
https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...1#post15937306

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I think this would be a good end-game for a Middle Babylonian/Great Bronze Age Empires campaign (starting around 1450 BC, with Hittites, Mitanni, Assyria, Babylon, Elam, Ugarit, New Kingdom Egypt)

Yes! And I finally again find map I wanted. One of usual TW problem is narrowing and limiting campaign map (Ottoman empire in Napoleon...so sad ) I would love to have a lot space around campaing map borders. A very complex landmass. Central mass with water around is boring, here we have varoius Seas, Islands...maintining control over certain islands or maintaining trade agreement might be crucial to get various resources...Here even Anatolia feels like big Island. you have to fear from which direction will come next raider...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I see what you mean, Abdülmecid, about the way that games follow films and TV. If CA aren't likely to make games of these scenarios (unless film-makers and TV studios create a demand), these sound like modding projects. It would be amazing if the developers developed a new Total War game which allowed modders to create new campaign maps - even if this meant that the graphics were not as good as the latest games - perhaps this could be done with a new Medieval game (or a Bronze Age II, if Troy is Bronze Age I).

Daruwind, you made good points about how your proposed Bronze Age Collapse scenario would use elements of different games. Some experienced players say that Total War games are too easy, maybe the combination of challenges you identified would be enjoyable for players who feel that way?

It is true that Bronze Age (Collapse) is not so popular setting. However Egypt..pyramids are So going with empire building theme might work. Dawn of civilization(s), ala Age of Empire...It will be little light weighted game in terms of unit variety. Well after all we can see Troy just in front of our eyes now....

But I really think that game might be very well scalable for various difficulties.

-but actually adding penalties to slow down expansion and moving armies further from your territory being harder to maintain..
-Attila style slow degradation of climate so even in late game empires are weakened
-More invasions for higher difficulties
-And trading ..trading ores... Plus having really dynamic trade system. Imagine FotS/Napoleon/Empire system where you can get exotic resources from certain resource nods. Now imagine them being half map away with very very limited rewards. A few units of tin per turn. Imagine if raiding naval/land route actually get you precious resources while removing them from original faction. Raiding is no longer just some virtual money, now it is very important source of Tin!!! Protection of trade routes is now way way important. And what if the same is true for moving resources inside empire. Having gold mines somewhere means any raiding around might deprive you of precious metals....

-Over exploiting wood/food production will lead to quick drop of such production. Mines won´t be unlimited. Especially tin sources are almost all trade based! Advanced units, upkeep, replenishment might require bronze for example so for higher difficulties, limiting amount on map, amount available for training will add stress on player.

EDIT: Actually I think a lot people would hate my very complex system. Because they would have to plan provincies ahead, think in long term. Do I need very intesive food production now to boost armies and cities and trady or keep slower growth. Rapid pace or longterm stability?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Random maps Because I was loooking for the very top one...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

West part of map


Of course we need east part as well


Some geopolitical maps 14/12 centuries..

[PointOfViewGun]

There have been a lot of positive comments on the new economy system by the reviewers but its ultimately something we gotta play to understand fully. Since coins were not used yet at this point in history barter economics makes sense to utilize. I'm not sure how fantasy would play into it though. Perhaps we'll see some items in the game from the mythology that can be sold or bought which provides extra stats to heroes.

-Mostly the Hero abilities, many of those are comparable to Wh(s) ones.
-Gods favours, significant bonuses with 100% certainty.
-Many characters, Amazons

See, I´m the last person having problems with such stuff but either they want to make historical game or fantasy one. :-) Look how units are in way keep in possible "historical" way and then you get hero with ressurection abilitity...Horses are rare except amazons have tons of spare ones and so and so. And gods, I would prefer some dilemas, some shaping or altering my direction in game but the system we saw is directly spend resources -> gain bonuses.

Hero abilities, specifically the healing one, should be tweaked, I agree. There were some nice suggestion by the reviewers on how they could have units stop or slow down to patch wounds. There are certainly fantasy elements but they're attempted to be grounded in reality. In such an era its bound to have these.

[PikeStance]

With their clear attempt to turn a fantasy story into a realistic one what fantasy element is in the game?

With their clear attempt to turn a fantasy story into a realistic one what fantasy element is in the game?
You answered your own question. I mean I am not sure how a fantasy story turned realistic somehow morphs into a historical game?

In the context of discussion fantasy/history, I wonder what do you think about economy in the game?

Probably the one good aspect.

[PointOfViewGun]

With their clear attempt to turn a fantasy story into a realistic one what fantasy element is in the game?
You answered your own question. I mean I am not sure how a fantasy story turned realistic somehow morphs into a historical game?

Why is that an issue with Troy specifically? Many aspects revolving around past eras were also based on mostly fantasy. However, it shouldn't be hard to explain what fantasy elements there are in the game. Or you have nothing to add to what Daruwind said?

[Lord Baal]

Well, in past games you had the mummy egiptians figthing ninja assasins romans on the battlefield. If thats not fantasy I dunno what is. But somehow Troy seem to be pushing it way further. I would not mind if they had included naval battles. All TW should have naval battles in my book. I know other people feel its a waste of time but that could be said of almost any feature someone dislike, so I'm strong in my opinion.

Specially seeing how much sea you have in this game!

[Daruwind]

Why is that an issue with Troy specifically? Many aspects revolving around past eras were also based on mostly fantasy. However, it shouldn't be hard to explain what fantasy elements there are in the game. Or you have nothing to add to what Daruwind said?

How to say it....there are two parts in games. Functionality (tools) and depiction of such functionatily (lore, historical way, technology..). In FotS we have for example Naval Bombardment, Hand Grenades...in Wh(s) we Black Arch with bombardment and magic Fireballs and such abilities. So one part function, one part how you set it up and explain.

I´m usually fine as long as explanation makes sense in game setting. Like in Warhammer is crazy. But even if snake pot catapults and fire pigs in Rome 2 are quite borderline, they have at least some base in history. And for me Minotaurs, Centaurs and other units in Troy are in very same category. It´s like having magic button for Arrow protection, only difference for Testudo ability is, just infantry with shields can do it not unit with two weapons..Of course you can say "what about Banzai" abilitiy and similar but that is exactly that. Describing ability as war cry and making it in such way won´t break immersion as gaining magical anti arrow protection

So what is problem here? CA specifically said they try to look for "truth behind myth" in Troy aka Minotaur being large man, centaurs being riders that is exactly what I was expecting. So it is more about finding the proper line (which is of course different for each one here )...For me, healing and ressurection in mid battle are definitely crossing line. But it can be altered easily, that is true! But I would prefer gods to work in somehow mysterious way. Current depiction is straight from fantasy...higher level devolition (of cleric) equals higher bonuses (spells etc). I know people were very religious and saw god´s work in rudimentary daily things or as divine favour mid battle when one hero got great hit or twist of luck but usually you cannot activate such effect as Banzai or Testudo... That´s my personal take on problem. I can play and enjoy game no matter if historical, fantasy or combination...but why to say "truth behind myth" if half game is following such approach and half is not?

[PointOfViewGun]

How to say it....there are two parts in games. Functionality (tools) and depiction of such functionatily (lore, historical way, technology..). In FotS we have for example Naval Bombardment, Hand Grenades...in Wh(s) we Black Arch with bombardment and magic Fireballs and such abilities. So one part function, one part how you set it up and explain.

I´m usually fine as long as explanation makes sense in game setting. Like in Warhammer is crazy. But even if snake pot catapults and fire pigs in Rome 2 are quite borderline, they have at least some base in history. And for me Minotaurs, Centaurs and other units in Troy are in very same category. It´s like having magic button for Arrow protection, only difference for Testudo ability is, just infantry with shields can do it not unit with two weapons..Of course you can say "what about Banzai" abilitiy and similar but that is exactly that. Describing ability as war cry and making it in such way won´t break immersion as gaining magical anti arrow protection

So what is problem here? CA specifically said they try to look for "truth behind myth" in Troy aka Minotaur being large man, centaurs being riders that is exactly what I was expecting. So it is more about finding the proper line (which is of course different for each one here )...For me, healing and ressurection in mid battle are definitely crossing line. But it can be altered easily, that is true! But I would prefer gods to work in somehow mysterious way. Current depiction is straight from fantasy...higher level devolition (of cleric) equals higher bonuses (spells etc). I know people were very religious and saw god´s work in rudimentary daily things or as divine favour mid battle when one hero got great hit or twist of luck but usually you cannot activate such effect as Banzai or Testudo... That´s my personal take on problem. I can play and enjoy game no matter if historical, fantasy or combination...but why to say "truth behind myth" if half game is following such approach and half is not?

The way its described is that you invest in a cult that prays for a god. You can build temples, you can sacrifice resources, etc. and those actions put you at a better standing among that cult and you get support or access to units from that particular crowd. There is also the effect that people perform better if they believe a particular god is supporting them. Say, as a soldier you see that your king dedicated a lot of temples to Ares while also sacrificing bulls before a battle you would certainly fight more confident. Based on gameplay videos I have watched I have sensed that truth behind myth aspect. I didn't see any magical aspects to it. Another example right from the game is that you get +10% sea movement if Poseidon is respected. If you have sailors in your ship that pray to Poseidon they are also trying to understand the sea better. Then if Poseidon is celebrated then you get food for each coastal region. As you have people rooting for Poseidon you're also getting better at fishing. Sure, not all make 100% but then again that was true for any special bonus or ability in any other game, fantasy or historical.

[Spartan198]

Did I seriously just miss getting Troy for free by three hours?

[Lord Baal]

Just wait for the stean release.

[zoner16]

Having played around with the economy for a while, I'm not sure if I think this resource system is actually a way forward. The 5 resources are fairly evenly spread across the map, and they don't end up with richer/poorer exploitation based on location except gold. Because you'll need all of them for most of the game, there's not an incentive to prioritize certain settlements unless you're really hurting for a single resource. You tend to need them in different amounts, but the game already compensates for this by making food and wood far more plentiful. Bartering around is common early game, as you're limited to a province or two, but by mid game you generally don't need to think about it that much.

More specifically, they all basically function the same. So you end up with just 5 different kinds of money. It doesn't really open up new strategic gameplay options if you're rich in a certain type. At best, you get to buy things faster and get pestered with more terrible barter requests from the AI. It's not helped that it's really easy to buffer any shortage you have because the diplomatic AI is very generous with its offers (and has a very easy exploit).

The old trade good system was hard to parse and was hampered by poor map placement, but some recent titles did start trying to make control of certain resources more impactful to your overall strategy, affecting technology, infrastructure, and unit choices as well as guiding your expansion route through the game. The only resource I ever felt limited by in Troy was bronze, and that ended up being easily solved with a couple barter deals.