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Thread: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

  1. #141

    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    So are you talking about the future, or is there a specific point or trend you wan to emphasize that made Total War not quite Total War anymore?

  2. #142

    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    LMAO you posted this 15 minutes after my post.
    Yup, and that was my point, since there isn't much in-depth information about the game you suggested me to review. If I posted that an hour after your post then that should have been a red flag.
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  3. #143
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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    So are you talking about the future, or is there a specific point or trend you wan to emphasize that made Total War not quite Total War anymore?
    Grand Tactician is to Total War Franchise what Shogun was to tactical based games at that time.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Yup, and that was my point, since there isn't much in-depth information about the game you suggested me to review. If I posted that an hour after your post then that should have been a red flag.
    There are 17 Articles detailing all of the features of the game. You seem to have missed it in your haste to dismiss it out of hand. (Yes, that is a red flag... you seem like you don't want to know that there is now going to be a viable alternative. That's your prerogative.
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  4. #144

    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Grand Tactician is hardly a Total War experience at all. Those elements that correlate I find marred by too strong a focus on more modern times, eliminating much of what I consider to be the core of the series in basic gameplay. Troy, for all its weaknesses, might at least represent some degree of warscape-era total war play.

    But really, if I want the old school feel, I'm going to play the old school game; I have no urges towards the latest and greatest and I'm not spoiled by visual fidelity.

  5. #145

    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    There are 17 Articles detailing all of the features of the game. You seem to have missed it in your haste to dismiss it out of hand. (Yes, that is a red flag... you seem like you don't want to know that there is now going to be a viable alternative. That's your prerogative.
    I checked the website, which contains those articles, and checked the steam page. As I said, those contain only superficial information on what is provided. Whats interesting is that we've spend two pages on this now but your comments on why that game provides total war experience when Total War games don't is missing. You might be fishing for arguments from others. If you have a point, make it. Based on what I've read Grand Tactician doesn't provide such a distinction.
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  6. #146
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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I checked the website, which contains those articles, and checked the steam page. As I said, those contain only superficial information on what is provided. Whats interesting is that we've spend two pages on this now but your comments on why that game provides total war experience when Total War games don't is missing. You might be fishing for arguments from others. If you have a point, make it. Based on what I've read Grand Tactician doesn't provide such a distinction.
    I have no idea what you are babbling about. I do not need to convince you of anything. My post was an FYI for another poster as another viable option for a Total War type game. I also suggested histwar which is game already released but is going though a very slow development. Grand Tactician will have a complex economic system as well as tactical realism that will be a challenge for many. If you want simple, Grand Tactician will not be for you.
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  7. #147

    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I have no idea what you are babbling about. I do not need to convince you of anything. My post was an FYI for another poster as another viable option for a Total War type game.
    His question is simple. What makes Grand Tactician a viable Total War type game? Comparisons and a case. Though that may be better suited elsewhere given this thread's premise resting on Troy.

  8. #148

    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I have no idea what you are babbling about. I do not need to convince you of anything. My post was an FYI for another poster as another viable option for a Total War type game. I also suggested histwar which is game already released but is going though a very slow development. Grand Tactician will have a complex economic system as well as tactical realism that will be a challenge for many. If you want simple, Grand Tactician will not be for you.
    Your conduct makes it apparent that you jumped on a wagon before you developed a coherent argument.
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  9. #149
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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    His question is simple. What makes Grand Tactician a viable Total War type game? Comparisons and a case. Though that may be better suited elsewhere given this thread's premise resting on Troy.
    As i already stated, I was making a suggestion to another poster that he/she should have a look at gran tactician. IMO, it is total war game. in which you can define your own course action outside of what happened in history. In other words, you do not simply re-fight the battles of history, but plan your own course of action. The game has a complex economic system in which you must supply your armies with equipment and keep them supply. The tactics are realistic has there is delay of command and the disposition of the army is based solely on what the men in the field can reliably communicate. This is something I had hoped TW would adopt in time, but never did and most likely never will. The "campaign" aspect of the game is on the same scale as a paradox title. Like I said, the game complexity may not be for everyone, so I leave it for anyone to check it out for themselves to see if it is the right game for them. For me it is the Shogun Total War of today.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Your conduct makes it apparent that you jumped on a wagon before you developed a coherent argument.
    Again, I have no idea what you are talking about. You have been argumentative from the start. I made a suggestion. I gave my opinion on why I made that suggestion. People can make up their own mind if the game is right for them. If you are not interested, then good on you. This thread is about Troy not alternative titles.
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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    I would propose to keep this thread more about Troy and not about rather abstract topics like is Total War still about total war, was it ever, what did and does a reference to total war mean at all and such stuff. Although the linked games Grand Tactician and HistWar sound interesting (thank you for the mentioning, while I'm not at all interested in the NA Civil War, I'm considering to buy HistWar), they are hardly comparable to a classic TW game with it's combination of (to a small extent) historical campaign play and the (to a small extent) historical + nice graphics battles.

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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Hellenistic focused with no naval battles, Troy WITHOUT THE FREAKING HORSE, not even in a custom battle FFS....
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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Quote Originally Posted by geala View Post
    I would propose to keep this thread more about Troy and not about rather abstract topics like is Total War still about total war, was it ever, what did and does a reference to total war mean at all and such stuff. Although the linked games Grand Tactician and HistWar sound interesting (thank you for the mentioning, while I'm not at all interested in the NA Civil War, I'm considering to buy HistWar), they are hardly comparable to a classic TW game with it's combination of (to a small extent) historical campaign play and the (to a small extent) historical + nice graphics battles.
    I'd like to second this proposal.

    And I'll also be looking into those games, thanks.

    As for Troy, sounds interesting but I'm waiting for more information before forming any concrete views. I do like the sound of the whole "truth behind the myth" approach they are doing though. And I'd quite like to see them incorporate the whole "heroes tower above the regular men" approach from the trailer, to make them stand out while still being semi-realistic.

    All the Best,

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  13. #153

    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Quote Originally Posted by Welsh Dragon View Post
    I do like the sound of the whole "truth behind the myth" approach they are doing though.
    I'd like it more if I saw evidence it was, in fact, looking for the truth behind the myth, rather than representing the myth and having little apparent plausible truth involved in the effort.

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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Waiting for more info is a cunning approach, I think. It really depends wether they want to simulate the mixed time reality of the Iliad or 13th/12th c. BC Bronze Age warfare.

    A heroic focus seems to fit more the archaic period of the 9th and 8th century BC with combat based on smaller raiding parties lead by well equipped warrior nobles. It resembles more or less Iron Age European warband warfare, as we see it in the Hjortspring boat findings.

    As such it were more fitting to Central European Bronze Age warfare were with no doubt a hero cult was partly in use. The Tollense findings however remind us that also in the northern parts of Europe bigger armies of at least partly professional warriors were used in the 13th c. BC; the allegedly (I doubt it) more civilized parts of the Mediterranean world still have to show us a similar size and intensity of battle in the archaeological evidence (ok, that's unfair ).

    So, less heroes, please. Heroes should be strong, well armored and very well trained small groups of warriors which could have big impact as units, but not supernatural individuals.

    I dare to say that for me also visuals do count. CA based the Greek soldiers seemingly on the pictures of the so-called Warrior Vase, which for me is a rather bad choice. If there is no more to see, I might skip also this TW game.

    Let's wait and see.

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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Quote Originally Posted by Welsh Dragon View Post



    As for Troy, sounds interesting but I'm waiting for more information before forming any concrete views. I do like the sound of the whole "truth behind the myth" approach they are doing though. And I'd quite like to see them incorporate the whole "heroes tower above the regular men" approach from the trailer, to make them stand out while still being semi-realistic.

    All the Best,

    Welsh Dragon.

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    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    All Total War games are Total War in my view.
    1st is more history than myth. Recently arcaeologists found a tiny island that its urban center was made in late stone age. But what bothers archaeologists is that the island has a sucrificial place in a form more like a piramid that aged from early bronze age. Potery is what we call Ionian (Achaean) and Minoic but the culture was Cycladic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    I'd like it more if I saw evidence it was, in fact, looking for the truth behind the myth, rather than representing the myth and having little apparent plausible truth involved in the effort.
    Recently found tombs in south Greece proves that Iliad was true. How we know it...The weapons that are found in them are those Homer descibes with extreme detail but also aged from early to late bronze Age.
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    Quote Originally Posted by geala View Post
    Waiting for more info is a cunning approach, I think. It really depends wether they want to simulate the mixed time reality of the Iliad or 13th/12th c. BC Bronze Age warfare.

    A heroic focus seems to fit more the archaic period of the 9th and 8th century BC with combat based on smaller raiding parties lead by well equipped warrior nobles. It resembles more or less Iron Age European warband warfare, as we see it in the Hjortspring boat findings.

    As such it were more fitting to Central European Bronze Age warfare were with no doubt a hero cult was partly in use. The Tollense findings however remind us that also in the northern parts of Europe bigger armies of at least partly professional warriors were used in the 13th c. BC; the allegedly (I doubt it) more civilized parts of the Mediterranean world still have to show us a similar size and intensity of battle in the archaeological evidence (ok, that's unfair ).

    So, less heroes, please. Heroes should be strong, well armored and very well trained small groups of warriors which could have big impact as units, but not supernatural individuals.

    I dare to say that for me also visuals do count. CA based the Greek soldiers seemingly on the pictures of the so-called Warrior Vase, which for me is a rather bad choice. If there is no more to see, I might skip also this TW game.

    Let's wait and see.
    The data base of the armors and weapons is huge. And every day more foundings prove Homer accurate! Homer (the blind man) describes a war with such accuracy that archaelogists are ammased by the fact the those they find are those they read in Illiad!
    More and More historians that the "blind man" that originaly told the stories of Illiad and Odysee was a veteran. Illiad is full of duels that spears and swords aim to enemy head and mostly his eyes!
    I would agree for the "less heros" though because all armies involved had tactics and organised units. Ofcourse personal duels were part of the "ceremony" of starting a battle but units were those who fought and died not the heros.
    The "Myth" part is what EACH HERO represents in the nature of war as Homer descibes it. He emphises that huma soul (andos psyche) is most valueable than any treasure on the world. So Heros represent values (positiive and negative) that a man in a war shows durring the fightings.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
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  16. #156

    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    I would disagree that all Total War games are Total War. Total war means battles on the ground with as much battle realism as possible not walls that fall with rain!
    It really isn't that. Total war is when a state prioritizes war overall other aspects of governance and basically focuses all military and civilian resources towards supporting said state's war.
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  17. #157
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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    ...

    The data base of the armors and weapons is huge. And every day more foundings prove Homer accurate! Homer (the blind man) describes a war with such accuracy that archaelogists are ammased by the fact the those they find are those they read in Illiad!
    More and More historians that the "blind man" that originaly told the stories of Illiad and Odysee was a veteran. Illiad is full of duels that spears and swords aim to enemy head and mostly his eyes!
    I would agree for the "less heros" though because all armies involved had tactics and organised units. Ofcourse personal duels were part of the "ceremony" of starting a battle but units were those who fought and died not the heros.
    The "Myth" part is what EACH HERO represents in the nature of war as Homer descibes it. He emphises that huma soul (andos psyche) is most valueable than any treasure on the world. So Heros represent values (positiive and negative) that a man in a war shows durring the fightings.
    The Iliad is of mixed worth here. I'm not sure to what findings and what descriptions (which are partly vague) you refer. I agree that some descriptions can be at least with some reason related to armor used in the Bronze Age.

    It is wrong however that the Iliad mainly refers to the head and eyes as aims. A lot of different woundings to many areas of the body are described. Often spears pierce through armor seemingly which can be interpreted in different ways (unrealistic fantasy because it's a tale or weak armor). The armor is mainly made of bronze, only three times armor of linen is mentioned.

    In my opinion the armor from the Warrior Vase however cannot be well related to the Bronze Age and the descriptions of the Iliad. Same for the shields. Despite all the problems with art and form of the vase, currently it's dated to the 13th/12th c. BC. Ok, I have to accept that. I'm much more ok with the first datings, putting the vase in the 8th c. BC.

    For TW combat I would take mainly this from the Iliad and the other sources for the Troyan War (the Iliad covering only 10 not very decisive months, telling us nothing about the ending):

    1. There were some formations of bigger infantry groups, perhaps a kind of lines or blobs or even proto-shieldwalls.
    2. There were (very few) duels of well armed, armored and trained noble or wealthy upper class warriors. The duels had no effect at all on the greater combat.
    3. In normal combat the elite warriors could deal lot of damage, i.e. kill many named and unnamed warriors. That were not duels one-on-one but fights in connection with masses of infantry.
    4. Neither duels nor elite combat against the masses had an effect to the ending of the Troyan War, instead they were meaningless. Troy was defeated by a ploy and surprise attack, without any organized fighting or duels.

  18. #158
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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    I agree that duels had no effects to a battle's outcome. But duels were a kind of ceremonial start of a battle in the west. But yes. People fought in formations and UNITS just like they fought around Megido , with "divisions" of infantry and chariots. The small plains of the balkans favored the slow passed "phalanx" formations with long spears. The open spaces of the east favored archers. That difference shown better in the schariots crews.
    In fact if YOU READ the Illiad it describes battles in open spaces instead of a siege with withdrawals of both sides with huge losses. So there were battles in formatrions. The siege of Troy (Illiad) is a war of 53 days not ten years. And yes most of the heroic duels ended with blows on the defeated heads with description (his eyes went out by the spear's blow). Homer uses Heros not as persons but as warfare different aproaches in the war and its tactics. The myth of Achile's leap is the most notorius example. An example that no matter how well trained or "undefeated" an army can be there will be a momment the is end will come.
    Remember that Homer describes the war as humans sufairings. Hector is the idealistic defender any Greek must be (his words Εἷς οἰωνὸς ἄριστος, ἀμύνεσθαι περὶ πάτρης (there is no better homen to defend your homeland , follow the Greek prospecive since that day). Leonidas is one famous example.
    Achiles shows the undeafeted Greek army that when feels secure under its own several successes founds it defeat.
    Odyseus shows that when open battle can not win a war , cunning and black ops are the tool to do so.
    Agamemnon shows that the Ruler also must obey the rules of war no matter how "high" in hierarche he stands , otherwise his troops will rebel.
    In fact Illiad is an epic version of Art of War but instead of advices like Sun Tzu gives, heros take their place.
    Illiad though is a theological aproach of the Greek warafare as part of their lives. Hybris leads to Nemmesis NO MATTER how great warrior you are. Hybris shows when Achiles drugs Hector's dead body with his chariot and lives him unbarried.
    That hybris is also present in Antigoni. Those values and virtues and their results followed Greeks in to their Clasical Age. Solon when he talks with Kroisos shows all those values and virtues Hilliad conatins to describe the mots happy people.
    Solon uses Homer's words that a human's soul worths more than every treasure on earth and gives Kroisos many examples of people that ended their lives in so many different ways and they were happier that Kroisos that was the wealthiest man on the known world. Kroisos used Solon's examples with his convarsation with Kyros the Great that -by Herodotus- ruled the Persian Empire with tolerance and wisdom after those conversations.
    So Illiad is two books. An art of war manual and the "holy bible" of the Greek sporitual life the same time.
    There are moments (in history), in which a nation owes,
    if it wants to be considered as a great one, to be able to fight.
    Even without hope of winning. Just because it has to.
    Greek War motto.
    XXI Armored Brigade. Proud that served in that unit in 1996!
    "Spartans do not ask how many (enemies are) but where they are"!
    XXI Armored Brigade's motto.
    The Greek Secret (or why they will fight again if it will be necessary or why they do not sell their history).


  19. #159
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    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    Very nice summary of ingame features/info so far
    https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/co...ures_for_troy/

  20. #160

    Default Re: Total War Saga: TROY announced! (trailer, screens & campaign map video)

    No Naval battles? Dude, come on...

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