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Thread: USA Voter registry purges - possible suppression?

  1. #21

    Default Re: USA Voter registry purges - possible suppression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    I don't think that the scope of the "problem" necessitates such a response, especially when it may negatively impact voter turnout. Moreover, to your earlier post, considering the "massive number of illegal aliens in this country", how many have actually voted over the years?

    Then there are other angles of the problem to consider. Like "Dreamers" who are more American and more driven than many actual "Americans", but who are unable to vote. Or the hundreds of thousands of Americans who are unable to vote on specific election days, or the obscure registration days... Or the fact that as somebody who's volunteered for municipal government, many government employees themselves are not fully cognizant of all the procedures when it comes to voting. To say little of the thousands of homeless and illiterate who can't even look up the information. Their voices often go unheard.
    As of 2012, only 6 states require a full SSN to register to vots:. HI, KY, NM, TN, SC, VA, although morestatss were thinking about adding th requirement. Most require only a valid driver's license and maybe the last 4 digits. Some states have made off a policy to actively had our driver's licenses even to illegal immigrants, and my license has no designation as to whether I am a citizen. You can get a driver's license even if you are not a US citizen, and forging the necessary documents would mighty not be that tough if they are not subject to strict scrutiny by sympathetic officials. I suspect at many compliant state officials are only too happy not to examine documents too closely, even by people who can't speak a word of English. Why do we have to print out voter ballots in Spanish otherwise?

    Ofnthr voters are legitimate, then subjecting them to tighter scrutiny shouldn't be a problem. The objections are precisely because the people complaining know these voters won't stand proper scrutiny, and they wa t to allow these illegals to vote, as you clearly do.

    As for the Dreamers they can come the legal way, just like many of our ancestors. If only a fraction od the illegal aliens voted, it could easily decide an election. If you have a million illegal immigrants and even if only 10% managed to vote, that could swing a tight election. I can't agree with your assessment, especially when so many are actively supporting illegal immigration as you do. Would a California official not examine very closely forged documents to allow illegals to vote, yes.

  2. #22
    Elfdude's Avatar The Blue Spirit
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    Default Re: USA Voter registry purges - possible suppression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    Prove that they can't. In California, they make it very hard to challenge any potential voter, and there are large number of people whonwork very hard at allowing illegal aliens tonstay in the country and get them driver license and other documentation. Voter registration is notntird into social security, youncsn still vote even if you don't have a social security car. ID like driver license and passports don't have you social security number and identity theft is rampant.
    Nope, you're wrong, driver's license only works if the DMV has your social security information and has verified that with the social security administration at least once, if you do not have your social security information on file with the DMV who eventually cross checks these with the social security administration you cannot register to vote in ANY state in the US. Sorry but you're fundamentally wrong. This is because you seem to only understand what goes on the registration card and not the process behind the scenes which involves thousands of people and enormous interconnected government databases. Ultimately all potential voters are verifies via social security which flags duplicates, dead and ineligible (too young).

    My proof that they can't is based on the system they must manage to make it through.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    You don't think that someone with a little money couldn't get a forged set of ID ifnthey wanted. That they xouldn't get get a social security number from either a deceased person or another person living Ina different state? Do you think states check all the social security numbers of their voters against registered voters in other states?
    No social security is a federal system not a state system, your number is your federal identifier, while it was never intended as a ID the way it is, it has proven to be the most robustly accurate form of ID in the US. There is no way to get a forged social security number for the purposes of voting, you can get one for hiring (sometimes, depends on how your state handles non-match responses from the federal govt), but when it comes to benefits (welfare) or voting the states do not control what happens when the social security # does not match the name and ID. You would have to be very lucky to find someone who was the same age, accept that you'd change your name, and hope that they never tried to use their own social security number. The federal government automatically checks social security numbers as does the DMV of each state. If the DMV gets a mismatch response one of two things happens, you're either placed in a pool of suspect identification (preventing the DMV from verifying you) or your identification is rejected by the DMV. This is how ALL cases of duplicate voting are found. Usually the reason is simply someone moved and in those cases the most recent ballot replaces the older ballot. Social security numbers from dead people are re-issued. Social security numbers also are used by every state to verify someone's age is eligible to vote.

    Which is to say, you can probably get away with stealing someone's social security number when it comes to paying taxes (the government is fine with taking extra money) but when it comes to voting or welfare it works much much differently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    As long as they only use the SSN to register to vote, and not for any money, it won't raise any flags u less the state checks with all 49 other states whether or not it is being used
    It does. Or rather every state checks with the SSA which sends them responses such as Mismatch, Duplicate or Invalid.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    I very much doubt they do. As far as I know, there is no national registry by SSN of a thr nation voters by state, can you point to me to such a digital data base?
    There is a national registry of social security numbers. Currently the social security administration possesses the most robust list of citizens by age and name in the US. It takes 72 hours on average for a voting agency to verify the identity through the social security administration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    If there is not such a digital data base, how would any state know whether that SSN was being used to register s voter in another state? Most ofnthr time SSN fraud is only flagged when someone tries to collect so ial security money from it.
    There is a digital database.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    As of 2012, only 6 states require a full SSN to register to vots:. HI, KY, NM, TN, SC, VA, although morestatss were thinking about adding th requirement. Most require only a valid driver's license and maybe the last 4 digits.
    All states require at least the last 4 digits, there's an extensive process you can go through to verify with other ways but it ultimately relies upon 3 separate identifiers which can still be sent to the social security administration for verification. The last four is all that is and should be needed, a full social security number would make the voter registration system far less secure than it is because then people could raid the mail even easier to find personal information. It's just like your credit card number, just because someone requires the last four of your credit card number to verify your billing information does not mean that they aren't connecting it to the rest, the last four is a method to protect the full number just in case you're a good actor on the phone or you stumble upon information you shouldn't have.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    Some states have made off a policy to actively had our driver's licenses even to illegal immigrants, and my license has no designation as to whether I am a citizen.
    What do you think the DMV information is? The DMV possesses a database for each person who has a license including their social security numbers, each time someone uses their DMV license number to register to vote the SOS office sends a ping to the DMV asking 1. Is this real 2. Is this personal eligible, if the information used to obtain the drivers license is incomplete or inaccurate or has been flagged before the DMV forwards the reply to the social security administration.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    You can get a driver's license even if you are not a US citizen, and forging the necessary documents would mighty not be that tough if they are not subject to strict scrutiny by sympathetic officials.
    That's pretty much BS. Only 12 states allow driver authorization for undocumented individuals, most of those states do not give them a full driver's license they only provide them with a driver's authorization card. Furthermore the verification process happens via automation, about the only part of it which is open to interpretation is the signature evaluation and the signature evaluation uses a 3 person flag process, i.e. if your signature doesn't look the same by one person, it is reviewed by a second person, if they don't think it looks the same, it's reviewed by a third person, who then rejects the ballot or the registration or both. I've been flagged by signature process simply because my signature has evolved a lot since High School and had to go back in to verify who I was.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    I suspect at many compliant state officials are only too happy not to examine documents too closely, even by people who can't speak a word of English. Why do we have to print out voter ballots in Spanish otherwise?
    Because it's required by US law. There is no official language in the united states, by law the US has to provide official documentation in dozens of languages if requested by anyone. You may speak english perfectly but prefer to read something in chinese and the US by law has to provide it to you. I'm not sure what speaking english has to do with any sort of verification of citizenship status, there's currently 41 million citizens and another 8-9 million undocumented immigrants who speak Spanish as a first language in the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    Ofnthr voters are legitimate, then subjecting them to tighter scrutiny shouldn't be a problem. The objections are precisely because the people complaining know these voters won't stand proper scrutiny, and they wa t to allow these illegals to vote, as you clearly do.
    No they aren't. Objections are because there doesn't seem to be any sort of genuine improvement of identification. It's security theater, security steps which look tighter but aren't and ultimately only prevent people from voting because they happen to forget something on the day of voting. Our system is spectacular at preventing fraudulent voting, so spectacular that the trump administration could only verify 1,000 instances in the last 20 (10 federal elections) years. That's from their own commission on voter fraud, that's not the dems, that's the administration's own probe. If trump and the GOP can't find any evidence of wide spread voter fraud then why do you believe it exists? You clearly have no idea how the SOS does their registration and verification process, and yes sometimes votes which are later deemed unacceptable are counted in initial tally's but there is no conspiracy to ignore fraudulent voting. It simply put does not exist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    As for the Dreamers they can come the legal way, just like many of our ancestors.
    No they can't. Our ancestors did not need to jump through the hoops they do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    If only a fraction od the illegal aliens voted, it could easily decide an election. If you have a million illegal immigrants and even if only 10% managed to vote, that could swing a tight election.
    But none of them vote. Now take a moment, since all voting is eventually verified by the SSA which is a federal agency, and federal agencies work with ICE what do you think happens when someone tries to use a fake social security number for voting? The SSA most certainly forwards that information to the DHS. If I was an undocumented immigrant, why the hell would I risk that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    I can't agree with your assessment, especially when so many are actively supporting illegal immigration as you do. Would a California official not examine very closely forged documents to allow illegals to vote, yes.
    California doesn't matter, the verification happens through federal agencies.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    @ Elfdude, I don't give a for your condescending appraisal of my strategy. You haven't addresses a single point because I think you're unable to. I'm embarrassed for you honestly. Never has somebody so pathetically claimed the moral high ground. Piss poor debating, piss poor. I accept your surrender. Absolutely pathetic. Phalera my ass.
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  3. #23

    Default Re: USA Voter registry purges - possible suppression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    As of 2012, only 6 states require a full SSN to register to vots:. HI, KY, NM, TN, SC, VA, although morestatss were thinking about adding th requirement. Most require only a valid driver's license and maybe the last 4 digits. Some states have made off a policy to actively had our driver's licenses even to illegal immigrants, and my license has no designation as to whether I am a citizen. You can get a driver's license even if you are not a US citizen, and forging the necessary documents would mighty not be that tough if they are not subject to strict scrutiny by sympathetic officials. I suspect at many compliant state officials are only too happy not to examine documents too closely, even by people who can't speak a word of English. Why do we have to print out voter ballots in Spanish otherwise?
    Even if you are correct (you aren't very precise or framing the issue correctly), you still haven't answered my question. How many illegal immigrants have cast votes? To talk about your last points, state officials aren't the only ones who can examine voting documents. Plus, even in a state like Washington, Republicans often have pushed for examinations of elections only to find virtually non-existent fraud. The reason why ballots are printed in Spanish is because there are many Hispanic citizens who live in the country... There are almost 50 million Hispanics citizens in the country, and many of them still don't speak or read English well.

    Ofnthr voters are legitimate, then subjecting them to tighter scrutiny shouldn't be a problem. The objections are precisely because the people complaining know these voters won't stand proper scrutiny, and they wa t to allow these illegals to vote, as you clearly do.

    As for the Dreamers they can come the legal way, just like many of our ancestors. If only a fraction od the illegal aliens voted, it could easily decide an election. If you have a million illegal immigrants and even if only 10% managed to vote, that could swing a tight election. I can't agree with your assessment, especially when so many are actively supporting illegal immigration as you do. Would a California official not examine very closely forged documents to allow illegals to vote, yes.
    Subjecting people to scrutiny reduces accessibility to the voting booths. This has nothing to do with voters not standing up to scrutiny, and everything to do with the fact that people are either poor or busy. Minorities especially, are vulnerable. And again, how many illegal immigrants have cast votes? This is like using a bazooka to clear out an ant's nest. Will you kill the ants? Sure, but you'll take down half of your house with it. I'm not going to compromise the ability of millions to vote, because a few dozen illegal ballots are cast every year.

  4. #24
    Ludicus's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: USA Voter registry purges - possible suppression?

    Slightly offtopic. Election day - Wikipedia
    Here, we head to polls on Sunday. It makes sense to me, it's almost impossible to vote and work at the same time. I have a question for our US friends: why election day in the US is not a holyday day?
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  5. #25

    Default Re: USA Voter registry purges - possible suppression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Slightly offtopic. Election day - Wikipedia
    Here, we head to polls on Sunday. It makes sense to me, it's almost impossible to vote and work at the same time. I have a question for our US friends: why election day in the US is not a holyday day?
    I have no idea, but it might explain why people past retirement age have the highest turnout. Although, I'm pretty sure we have online absentee ballets now, so it probably doesn't matter for most.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  6. #26

    Default Re: USA Voter registry purges - possible suppression?

    It depends on the state. Here in Washington I can vote by mail.

  7. #27

    Default Re: USA Voter registry purges - possible suppression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Slightly offtopic. Election day - Wikipedia
    Here, we head to polls on Sunday. It makes sense to me, it's almost impossible to vote and work at the same time. I have a question for our US friends: why election day in the US is not a holyday day?
    One. It doesn't matter. Two. It doesn't matter. Three. It doesn't matter.

    Anybody that has a job that lets them afford to take election day off can afford to tell their boss "You can't legally fire me for being late for being in the voting line and if you try to there's ten legal organizations that will sue you into the ground for free for me." And the boss knows this without the employee saying it and the boss won't dare stop them from voting.

    Anybody that has a job that they can't afford to miss is the kind of job that doesn't close on a federal holiday anyway(see: stores, restaurants, etc) and they're not going to skip work on a holiday anyway. Odds are, they're going to have part of the morning or evening off to vote. But they can't afford to skip work and they know it, their boss knows it, everybody involved knows it.

    There's a case to be made for increasing allowances for voting. Or a type of time off for voting the same way jobs tend to have time off for jury duty. As again, not even stores and restaurants can stop someone being called in for jury duty at least long enough to tell the judge they can't afford to miss work. But, the way these things swing, holiday is not the answer.
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  8. #28
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: USA Voter registry purges - possible suppression?

    It would certainly help with those lines... and it would be better for the businesses too!
    It's not just about the voters. It would be hell going to work in a voting day. Or having part of your workforce away on a business day.


    Now, how it would help with those lines:
    You could have more polling stations and more people available to work there if it was a Sunday.
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  9. #29

    Default Re: USA Voter registry purges - possible suppression?

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Now, how it would help with those lines:
    You could have more polling stations and more people available to work there if it was a Sunday.
    Let's be clear about one thing. Polling stations and the volunteers to man them aren't the issue. States that want more polling stations have never had a problem putting them in place. The issue arises when states try to lower the number of polling stations and basically make the lines a mile long and also muddy the waters and confuse people as to which polling station they should go.

    And again. Jobs people can't afford to miss do not close on Sunday.
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  10. #30
    Elfdude's Avatar The Blue Spirit
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    Default Re: USA Voter registry purges - possible suppression?

    Yeah, new polling stations don't increase strain on resources or increase costs, most research shows it actually decreases cost so decreasing polling places is a pretty transparent middle finger to your voters.
    "Pride is not the antidote of Shame but its source, humility is its only true antidote." - Iroh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    @ Elfdude, I don't give a for your condescending appraisal of my strategy. You haven't addresses a single point because I think you're unable to. I'm embarrassed for you honestly. Never has somebody so pathetically claimed the moral high ground. Piss poor debating, piss poor. I accept your surrender. Absolutely pathetic. Phalera my ass.
    When all else fails insult your opponents.

  11. #31

    Default Re: USA Voter registry purges - possible suppression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elfdude View Post
    Yeah, new polling stations don't increase strain on resources or increase costs, most research shows it actually decreases cost so decreasing polling places is a pretty transparent middle finger to your voters.
    Simply put, Republicans want as few working class people to vote as possible since that will benefit them.

  12. #32
    alhoon's Avatar Moderator
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    Default Re: USA Voter registry purges - possible suppression?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Let's be clear about one thing. Polling stations and the volunteers to man them aren't the issue. States that want more polling stations have never had a problem putting them in place. The issue arises when states try to lower the number of polling stations and basically make the lines a mile long and also muddy the waters and confuse people as to which polling station they should go.

    And again. Jobs people can't afford to miss do not close on Sunday.
    Interesting, but I am not convinced Sunday voting wouldn't increase voter turnout. I believe it would. Perhaps not as much, but it would.

    Now about polling stations not being too costly I agree that cost shouldn't be an issue. I mean, in a democracy, getting people to vote is insanely important, a very high priority. Spending a few thousand $ more per district is really not an issue.

    For the record, I am really surprised that more polling stations reduce the costs. Why would it?
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