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Thread: [Offiial Submod] Alternative Pike/Hoplite Phalanx/Shieldwall

  1. #1
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default [Offiial Submod] Alternative Pike/Hoplite Phalanx/Shieldwall

    Alternative Hoplite Phalanx/Shieldwall

    Hi All,

    Current implementation of hoplite phalanx and barbarian shield wall has it pros and cons.

    For people who are more into cons side, we have prepared this submod.

    It removes pike phalanx based behaviour for these formations, fixing issues like AI units positioning sideways/walking through player formation or spinning awkwardly.

    Instead hoplite and shieldwall using units now have passive formation and old Formed Attack added, which forces them to stay in formation, without above bugs (although sometimes it makes AI deploy own units in thin column).

    Additionally all animations were swapped to only use spears in combat.

    Their bonuses are:

    a) Hoplite Phalanx:
    +10% to missile block chance
    +50 frontal armour, -30 back and rear armour = this means that frontally they are tougher but recieve higher damage when attacked from the rear
    +2 shield defence, -1 melee defence = = this means that frontally they are harder to hit but recieve more strikes when attacked from the rear
    +10% to Armour Piercing damage
    +2 bonus vs cavalry
    +3 bonus vs elephants

    b) Shieldwall:
    +5% to missile block chance
    +20 frontal armour, -10 back and rear armour = this means that frontally they are tougher but recieve higher damage when attacked from the rear
    +1 melee attack
    +10% to base Weapon damage
    +2 bonus vs cavalry
    +2 bonus vs elephants


    Main differences are that hoplite phalanx is more defense oriented while shieldwall is a bit more offensive. Phalanx also is tougher frontally but suffers more from flanking while Shieldwall is not as tough frontally but does not suffer as much when flanked.


    Download and screens:
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1850549179


    Alternative Pike Phalanx



    Pike phalanx implementation on TW engine has it pros and cons.

    For people who are more into cons side, we have prepared this offical submod.

    It removes pike phalanx based behaviour for these formations, fixing issues like AI units positioning sideways/walking through player formation or spinning awkwardly.

    Instead pike phalanx using units now have passive formation and old Formed Attack added, which forces them to stay in formation, without above bugs (although sometimes it makes AI deploy own units in thin column).

    All animations were swapped as pike animations would not trigger and soldiers were using only swords.

    To combat it, I have added new animations for them, which mixes spear & shield animations with two handed kill animations. Pike units will have 3 new kill animations that use different two handed thrusts like imapling enemy to the ground. Additionally there are new animations for phalanx vs phalanx combat where pikemen will parry pike thrusts with their own pikes.


    Stat values of pike phalanx formations:

    a) Ling Pike Phalanx
    +10% to missile block chance
    +50 frontal armour, -20 back and rear armour = this means that frontally they are tougher but recieve higher damage when attacked from the rear
    +5 shield defence, -3 melee defence = = this means that frontally they are harder to hit but recieve more strikes when attacked from the rear
    +15% to Base Weapon damage
    +3 bonus vs cavalry
    +3 bonus vs elephants

    b) Short pike phalanx:
    +5% to missile block chance
    +20 frontal armour, -10 back and rear armour = this means that frontally they are tougher but recieve higher damage when attacked from the rear
    +30% charge bonus
    +10% to base Weapon damage
    +10% to Armour Piercing damage
    +1 Melee Attack
    +3 bonus vs cavalry
    +3 bonus vs elephants


    Main differences are that Long Pike Phalanx is more defense oriented while Short Pike Phalanxis a more offensive. Long Pike Phalanx also is tougher frontally but suffers more from flanking while Short Pike Phalanx is not as tough frontally but does not suffer as much when flanked.

    Compatible with:
    -Divide et Impera
    -Divide et Impera: Alexander
    -Divide et Impera save games
    -Alternative Hoplite Phalanx/Shieldwall

    Not compatible with:
    -Other mods

    Download and screens:
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1856834350
    Last edited by KAM 2150; September 09, 2019 at 03:31 PM.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: [Offiial Submod] Alternative Hoplite Phalanx/Shieldwall

    Please, this one could be available on TWC too?

    Looking forward to try this one

  3. #3
    nikossaiz's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: [Offiial Submod] Alternative Hoplite Phalanx/Shieldwall

    Nice for doing this submod. I can understand that some people getting annoyed by the hall phallanx thing , but to be honest and despite its flows, the hoplitic and phallanx system as it is now is one of the best ( I dare say better than rome 1)

  4. #4
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Offiial Submod] Alternative Pike/Hoplite Phalanx/Shieldwall

    Alternative Pike Phalanx with few unique animations changed added to the main post:
    https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1856834350
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  5. #5

    Default Re: [Offiial Submod] Alternative Pike/Hoplite Phalanx/Shieldwall

    Thank you for this submod! This is exactly what I have wanted ever since I started playing this mod.

  6. #6
    Jake Armitage's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: [Offiial Submod] Alternative Pike/Hoplite Phalanx/Shieldwall

    Thx kam

  7. #7

    Default Re: [Offiial Submod] Alternative Pike/Hoplite Phalanx/Shieldwall

    I think this should be somehow introduced on the main DEI page also, a lot of people do not visit sub forums.

  8. #8

    Default Re: [Offiial Submod] Alternative Pike/Hoplite Phalanx/Shieldwall

    Great submod! The pike phalanxes are great in vanilla but I was never completely satisfied with the Hoplites. Fighting Greeks is much more fun for me now.

  9. #9
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Offiial Submod] Alternative Pike/Hoplite Phalanx/Shieldwall

    Update release, pikes should be more sturdy from the front and be able to deal a bit more casualties.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: [Offiial Submod] Alternative Pike/Hoplite Phalanx/Shieldwall

    Silver shields in Aleksandr's campaign don't use spears in melee fight with this sub-mod. It is the bug?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

  11. #11
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Offiial Submod] Alternative Pike/Hoplite Phalanx/Shieldwall

    It is not intended to work with Alexander campaign. It is even stated in compatibility section.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: [Offiial Submod] Alternative Pike/Hoplite Phalanx/Shieldwall

    Quote Originally Posted by KAM 2150 View Post
    It is not intended to work with Alexander campaign. It is even stated in compatibility section.
    Sorry, I didn't notice.

    Are you planning to make this submod compatible with Aleksandr's campaign?

  13. #13

    Default Re: [Offiial Submod] Alternative Pike/Hoplite Phalanx/Shieldwall

    I think this is an interesting and possibly essential mod, so I am currently trying it out.

    After some really easy wins with Rome against Massalia - even 2 to 1 with heavily outnumbered Roman infantry - I decided to do a little basic testing in custom battles.
    The results I thought were really interesting, so figured I would share them here.

    The basic setup was a flat plain with only 1 unit of infantry on either side.
    For Massalia I used Palaemachoi Hoplitai, which have the advantage of doubling as general so perfect for use by the AI and keep consistent results.
    For Rome, any general to satisfy the start requirements, and 1 unit of Early/Camillan Hastati. Throwing pila disabled to keep consistency and focus on the melee.
    Battle was simply walking to the enemy unit and engaging straight on.
    Battles were run multiple times in each setting below; no other mods affecting battles and unit size maxed.

    With the mod DISABLED I got these results:

    Hastati in normal formation: easy victory for hastati, roughly 130 out of 200 men remaining upon rout.
    Hastati in disciplined formation: clear defeat for hastati, 140+ men remaining with the hoplitai. Interesting fact is the hoplite formation always moved slightly to the left upon contact, so the formations were never perfectly opposite each other. This doesn't happen in the other scenario's.

    Then with the mod ENABLED, the results changed around:

    Hastati in normal formation: the hoplitai always win, but the fight is more evenly matched: remaining men standing varies quite a bit depending on early random luck in the fight.
    Hastati in disciplined formation: the very definition of an even match-up. Impossible to predict which side will win and usually unclear who will win for a long time into the fight.

    My take-away from this: Alternative Phalanx mod strengthens the phalanx units against 'normal' infantry types, but strangely doesn't improve on the effectiveness against disciplined formations. This means a change of tactics is advised in some circumstances.

  14. #14

    Default Re: [Offiial Submod] Alternative Pike/Hoplite Phalanx/Shieldwall

    As much as I am enjoying this mod, one thing I've been missing is how pikes used to be able to keep enemies at bay (by that I mean pinning the enemies at the ends of the pikes with a gap inbetween the two units, like the pic in my signature). Was that changed to keep balance in mind?

    Also, say that I wanted to modify how pikes work so that they did so, what values should I change, if it is even possible? Thanks

  15. #15
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Offiial Submod] Alternative Pike/Hoplite Phalanx/Shieldwall

    That would ruin the entire point of this as it would just bring back rotating bug. Units can use weapon reach if they use phalanx formation behaviour (which this submod removes), which has rotation bug and other issues.

    In other words, what you want is what already is in base DeI.
    Last edited by KAM 2150; Yesterday at 05:11 PM.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: [Offiial Submod] Alternative Pike/Hoplite Phalanx/Shieldwall

    I had no idea that weapon reach specifically was the cause of the bug. I see though, so the choice is weapon reach with bug or no reach and no bug. I'll stick with the latter.
    Last edited by Grabbin_Megroin; Yesterday at 06:10 PM.

  17. #17
    KAM 2150's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: [Offiial Submod] Alternative Pike/Hoplite Phalanx/Shieldwall

    Weapon reach is not the problem, if you take away weapon reach from unit using pike phalanx behaviour, it will still rorate and try to walk through player units. It is just that this formation behaviour is bugged.
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