WTF is wrong with pike phalanx?

**CrazyZombie** · August 27, 2019, 09:47 AM

Ok, it looks like I haven't been in the game and specifically DEI mod for too long, but I have the question? What has happened with pikemen? It is absurd - like, you put them into position, but enemy somehow manages to push them, cutting through formation and destroying any semblance of organised fight. And all this may be done with some crappy quality units. Also, it feels like phalanx in general is random as hell. In one battle they may slaughter a lot men, while losing couple of own, in the next one they are the ones to be slaughtered, while killing good if 10 enemies.

It really just feels like best you can do with plalanx is to reach second Greek reform and build an army of pseudo-legioneers with swords and ability to fight in a more predictable manner, while forgetting about pikemen as a nightmare.

**Dardo21** · August 27, 2019, 10:50 AM

My lord almighty, 1st of all, if you have feedback, we have a feedback sticky exactly for that, 2ndly if you had done a search for this issue you would have seen that this behaviour has been asked about for about a billion gazillion times, it really did not need yet another complaint post. The phalanx turning around in enemy formations is an engine hardcoded bug, it has always been since the first time it was reported to us years ago.

**Dago Red** · August 27, 2019, 11:10 AM

Originally Posted by Dardo21

My lord almighty....
The phalanx turning around in enemy formations is an engine hardcoded bug, it has always been since the first time it was reported to us years ago.

Lord almighty x2. But when it happens, I found it's often better to *quickly* reposition them yourself. But only if they aren't completely swamped by the enemy already and it's even better if you can get another friendly unit to assist them during this.

Quickly:
1. Pretend a grizzled Lochagos has yelled out, or blown a whistle, or whatever they did to command the unit.
2. Take them out of phalanx formation.
3. Reform their position manually, without making them retreat much -- just redraw the square as close to where they already are as possible. Better units can withstand a backward "retreat" movement but if they are levy and already under stress this may make them rout. Either way it's better to reform the position exactly where they are versus moving backward if you can help it.
4. Re-engage phalanx formation.

A friendly unit engaging as many of the enemy as possible just before you begin this is ideal. Otherwise you may have a lot of casualties/rout depending on unit quality and what their morale is at the time. If they're already flagging, I wouldn't bother with this, they'll probably rout immediately.

Either way, drink wine. It is the nectar of gods and men.

**CrazyZombie** · August 27, 2019, 11:30 AM

Originally Posted by Dago Red

Lord almighty x2. But when it happens, I found it's often better to *quickly* reposition them yourself. But only if they aren't completely swamped by the enemy already and it's even better if you can get another friendly unit to assist them during this.

Quickly:
1. Pretend a grizzled Lochagos has yelled out, or blown a whistle, or whatever they did to command the unit.
2. Take them out of phalanx formation.
3. Reform their position manually, without making them retreat much -- just redraw the square as close to where they already are as possible. Better units can withstand a backward "retreat" movement but if they are levy and already under stress this may make them rout. Either way it's better to reform the position exactly where they are versus moving backward if you can help it.
4. Re-engage phalanx formation.

A friendly unit engaging as many of the enemy as possible just before you begin this is ideal. Otherwise you may have a lot of casualties/rout depending on unit quality and what their morale is at the time. If they're already flagging, I wouldn't bother with this, they'll probably rout immediately.

Either way, drink wine. It is the nectar of gods and men.

Hmmm, so in the end, flanking sword/spear infantry to tie enemy for some time is just a must-have to combat such behavior and buy pikemen some time to return into formation? Ok, never thought about this trick (retreating couple of steps, I mean), but thanks. Any more tips to use them as they are? I guess, that game is played by way better "commanders" than I am, so some trickery must exist anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I know that pikes were always just an anvil, it is just that sometimes you simply want some predictability of that "anvil performance". If it is invoidable - well, sad but okay.

Originally Posted by Dago Red

Either way, drink wine. It is the nectar of gods and men.

Nah, I'm more a cider guy.

**CrazyZombie** · August 27, 2019, 11:39 AM

And, yeah, no need to tell me that I'm a slowpoke. Know that pretty well myself.

Let's say, that pikes are just as random as they were, and I needed a confirmation of this. And maybe a few tips of how to mitigate this.

**waidizss** · August 27, 2019, 11:46 AM

Ygraine's pikes in Data Venia fight well. Formation held intact, levies repulsed. I'm quite satisfied in their performance. Base game, not so much.

**CrazyZombie** · August 27, 2019, 11:53 AM

Originally Posted by waidizss

Ygraine's pikes in Data Venia fight well. Formation held intact, levies repulsed. I'm quite satisfied in their performance. Base game, not so much.

Ok, you basically "sold" me that mod.

**CadetNewb** · August 27, 2019, 01:00 PM

Don't kid yourself. It's a bug from the base game, and you'll find it no matter where you go. No mod is able to fix their occasionally janky behavior, just tweak the balance to their own preferences.

Anyways, if the pikes or hoplites are getting too disorderly, what I do to reorganize their lines is just tap forward and then back on the arrow keys real quick. It gives the unit in question the order to move forward, followed by another one to move back, right to where it was originally. Since pikes and hoplites are super slowpokes when in phalanx, they don't actually move that much or at all, and just straighten their lines out. Additionally, when (not if) an enemy phalanx rotates into one of our own and juts through it, be it pike or hoplite, it's actually an opportunity to cut it to pieces with another unit. Just having a small handful of swords or spears as a second line to cover any gaps as well as screen the flanks is just proper good policy. Another way to mitigate the issue of enemy unites penetrating the pike or hoplite phalanx is to simply use a deeper formation, causing them to take even more casualties the deeper they go, and preventing them from coming out the other side. You'll have to plan accordingly though, considering your reduced frontage.

Also, if I recall correctly, base Rome 2 has hoplites using a modified shield screen ability, while DeI has it classified as a pike unit. It just looks way better how DeI does it I think, but has the same behavior issues as pikes as a result. Go take a look if you haven't already!

**Nordling** · August 27, 2019, 02:46 PM

PHALANX THREAD HYPE! WOO HOO!

**CrazyZombie** · August 27, 2019, 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Nordling

PHALANX THREAD HYPE! WOO HOO!

Feel myself bad. Well, sorry.

Originally Posted by CadetNewb

Don't kid yourself. It's a bug from the base game, and you'll find it no matter where you go. No mod is able to fix their occasionally janky behavior, just tweak the balance to their own preferences.

Ok, refund was called not long after the "buying".

**CadetNewb** · August 27, 2019, 10:54 PM

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're saying, but I wanna play it safe and gotta be honest here. If you're willing to refund Rome 2 over this, you're missing out. In the grand scheme of things, it's a single bug in an otherwise huge game full of content, and even bigger heaps of content with DeI. It's a bug that doesn't even happen all that often if you get a feel for using pikes, and can also be taken advantage of as I pointed out earlier.

If you're just talking about trying out different mods though, nevermind!

**Nordling** · August 28, 2019, 01:40 AM

Don't get me wrong my friend but I've been around for 4 years and saw a lot of thread regarding the pikes, either praising them or hating on them. I believe last one was around here like a month ago or so. It's sort of DeI tradition to have those poppin, i guess.

Anyways, back to the topic at hand. Phalanx have always been performing consistently for me if used properly. They are a slowly advancing wall of spears and that is the way to use them. You need always support this wall from the sides if you don't want to repeat the massacres that Romans inflicted on this formation. AFAIK pyrrhus mixed phalanx regiments with swordsmen and spearmen along his line and it's perhaps a thing to consider? In reality, every phalanx regiment acted more or less independently with its officers and uniqueness. I recommend to see the movie 'Alexander'which whilst not being amazingly accurate historically, shows ancient hellenic army in the best way hollywood has ever done (at least IMO). One more thing you can do if you feel that they are underperforming is to double click, with phalanx selected, on the unit directly in front of it - this will make them push forward and be more deadly in battle while being more exposed themselves.

Another thing - pikes are great and don't have to fight as phalanx every day. In reality, those were just soldiers who picked their weaponry according to the task at hand. They scaled walls and fought in the different terrain like forest, dessert or mountains of Hellas. It would be naive to think they used pikes every damn time. But as we all know there is no way to portrait that in R2TW. What I am getting is that you can always deactivate phalanx formation and just rush phlanagites forward as with every other sword unit

Last thing - how to fight the clipping hoplite/phalanx issue. Have a decent shock infantry squadron at the back of your line. If an enemy hoplite/phalanx clips through your line just send them to charge the unit at their exposed back/flank. That should solve the problem quite quickly. I tend to use axemen or peltasts for that.

All in all, just enjoy the game! Cheers

**BooBooLovesAll** · August 28, 2019, 11:21 AM

I found the discipline formation has the same issue. I'll give some the tips a try in this thread.

I have found that when a unit says "Formation Broken", I just drag it back into place and the warning goes away.

**CadetNewb** · August 28, 2019, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by BooBooLovesAll

I found the discipline formation has the same issue. I'll give some the tips a try in this thread.

I have found that when a unit says "Formation Broken", I just drag it back into place and the warning goes away.

I think you can try using the arrow keys for this too. Just tap it in one direction, then the opposite really quick to send them commands that'll place them right back where they were at. If it's fast enough, they won't even move out of place, and it's more precise/faster/lower effort than dragging and dropping.

**Dardo21** · August 28, 2019, 01:56 PM

Yeah, and when an unit in formation stays at a gap, you can also try to make it sprint behind an enemy for a sec and then have it re-engage. Reformating a hoplite unit might cost some units initially, but I find it usually worth it if it means that they'll be in a proper formation again.

**BooBooLovesAll** · August 28, 2019, 04:19 PM

Originally Posted by CadetNewb

I think you can try using the arrow keys for this too. Just tap it in one direction, then the opposite really quick to send them commands that'll place them right back where they were at. If it's fast enough, they won't even move out of place, and it's more precise/faster/lower effort than dragging and dropping.

Thanks.

**Oliver27** · August 31, 2019, 06:41 AM

If you are moving a large line of many units I find that sometimes not actually clicking to engage (charge) the enemy is better for maintaining solidarity, the units will automatically engage when they make contact, so you can just control group them to move 'through' the enemy. Even if you lose the charge bonus, which I'm not sure if you do actually, its still worth it to keep all your units in one continual line, as you take fewer losses.

**Antiochos VII Sidetes** · September 01, 2019, 01:38 PM

I am finding that even my mediocre Pergamene pike phalanxes are performing extremely well. The main thing that makes them suck is elevation. Rome II's engine WAY overweighs even tiny inclines, and makes hoplites and phalangites get slaughtered even over a gradual, map-wide slope. If you find yourself with a map like that, better to just keep them out of their formations and use them as mediocre heavy swordsmen.

Ahistorical, but regrettably necessary. And as it is an engine thing, I don't think even Kam's wizardry can fix it. But used well they are remarkably lethal.

**antred** · September 04, 2019, 04:58 PM

Yes, pikemen are kind of hit and miss. Sometimes they seem fairly useless, other times they absolutely slaughter the opposition. Today, my Markomanni pikemen completely obliterated a bunch of Nervii elite heavy swordsmen (I forgot the unit name) while barely suffering any casualties themselves. There were times when my pikemen were dropping a few enemies per second. I don't know what makes them overperform like this sometimes and then kind of suck at others.