Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 12345
Results 81 to 93 of 93

Thread: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

  1. #81
    Protector Domesticus
    Join Date
    Dec 2015
    Posts
    4,458

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Is salvation by faith alone, or by belief that salvation is by faith alone? It's the faith that saves, not the belief that faith is what saves. The object of faith is Christ, not one belief or another. If someone has faith in Christ, but doesn't know that salvation is by faith alone, he's still saved, since he has faith. Satan probably knows that every Christian doctrine is true, but that obviously doesn't make him a Christian, since he lacks the necessary faith.

    The papal bull Unam Sanctam states:

    We declare, we proclaim, we define that it is absolutely necessary for salvation that every human creature be subject to the Roman Pontiff.
    We say that's false, because salvation is by faith alone, not by being subject to the Pope's political power.

    Now, since salvation is by faith alone, when someone says that salvation isn't by faith alone, but also by something else, it doesn't matter what that other thing is; just as belief that Catholicism is true isn't necessary for salvation, likewise it's not necessary for salvation to believe that Catholicism is false. The only thing that matters is faith.

    I like how the Anglican Articles of Religion put it:

    XVIII. Of obtaining eternal Salvation only by the Name of Christ.

    They also are to be had accursed that presume to say, That every man shall be saved by the Law or Sect which he professeth, so that he be diligent to frame his life according to that Law, and the light of Nature. For Holy Scripture doth set out unto us only the Name of Jesus Christ, whereby men must be saved.
    Some members of the Roman Catholic Church have faith in Christ, some members don't. Not all members of the RCC are Christians, but it's perfectly possible to be a Christian and belong to the RCC at the same time. So whether a member of the RCC is a Christian or not depends on that individual member's faith, same for members of any other church/sect, Protestant or otherwise.

  2. #82

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Is salvation by faith alone, or by belief that salvation is by faith alone? It's the faith that saves, not the belief that faith is what saves. The object of faith is Christ, not one belief or another. If someone has faith in Christ, but doesn't know that salvation is by faith alone, he's still saved, since he has faith. Satan probably knows that every Christian doctrine is true, but that obviously doesn't make him a Christian, since he lacks the necessary faith.

    The papal bull Unam Sanctam states:



    We say that's false, because salvation is by faith alone, not by being subject to the Pope's political power.

    Now, since salvation is by faith alone, when someone says that salvation isn't by faith alone, but also by something else, it doesn't matter what that other thing is; just as belief that Catholicism is true isn't necessary for salvation, likewise it's not necessary for salvation to believe that Catholicism is false. The only thing that matters is faith.

    I like how the Anglican Articles of Religion put it:



    Some members of the Roman Catholic Church have faith in Christ, some members don't. Not all members of the RCC are Christians, but it's perfectly possible to be a Christian and belong to the RCC at the same time. So whether a member of the RCC is a Christian or not depends on that individual member's faith, same for members of any other church/sect, Protestant or otherwise.


    This is a thread about Islam, and we seem to have gotten away from that in the discussions.

    Compared to this Prottestsnt vs Catholic discussion of belief vs faith, Islam is rather simple in that regard, and you don't see big theological debates in Islam like this, which is an advantage of Islam. However. The big Islamic divide centers aroound who should have inherited the leadership of thr Prophet, which seems just as shallow.e

  3. #83
    basics's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    9,092

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    You're right it is about Islam's weaknesses and strengths and I brought Rome into it because of the similarities they both have. Primarily they are both religions of works wherein neither guarantees salvation that the Bible teaches. Both are about mays and maybe nots all dependent on God's mercy. The thing is that God has shown His mercy in the Lord Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross by paying for the sins of all them that He died for. Islam and Catholics of the Roman presuasion don't believe that. Both give their adherents nothing but works whereby God may have mercy on them thus guaranteeing them nothing. The Bible teaches that salvation is Justification by Faith and Faith alone, why? Because in each part of salvation it is God Who does the calling, the regeneration and the sustaining of the new believer right through to their natural deaths and consequent resurrection when Christ Jesus comes back. Islam doesn't believe any of that and Rome is no different.

  4. #84

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    You're right it is about Islam's weaknesses and strengths and I brought Rome into it because of the similarities they both have. Primarily they are both religions of works wherein neither guarantees salvation that the Bible teaches. Both are about mays and maybe nots all dependent on God's mercy. The thing is that God has shown His mercy in the Lord Jesus Christ's sacrifice on the cross by paying for the sins of all them that He died for. Islam and Catholics of the Roman presuasion don't believe that. Both give their adherents nothing but works whereby God may have mercy on them thus guaranteeing them nothing. The Bible teaches that salvation is Justification by Faith and Faith alone, why? Because in each part of salvation it is God Who does the calling, the regeneration and the sustaining of the new believer right through to their natural deaths and consequent resurrection when Christ Jesus comes back. Islam doesn't believe any of that and Rome is no different.

    What you say seems to be true about Islam, but does not seem true about Catholicism. Catholics believe in salvation by faith, and they do not believe, at least today, that you can "earn" salvation. It is just that the Catholics believe that without actions your belief isn't real, not really. If I believe that airplanes are safe, but refuse to get on a plane to fly, then my belief that flying is safe is rather meaningless, if you don't have faith to put your beliefs to the test.

    Cathoolics believe in Jesus saving sacrifice on the cross, while Muslims do not. Indeed, many Muslims do not believe Jesus even died on the cross.


    .

  5. #85
    basics's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    9,092

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Common Soldier,

    When any system takes a baby and sprinkles it with water at what point does that child know that he or she is a Christian for it is not in the Bible anywhere? The Baptist said that he does so to prepare people for the coming kingdom but that Jesus is the One Who will baptise with the Holy Spirit to make that possibility come true but only after being born again. So, there's a huge gap in the theology here. Millions of people from both Rome and Protestantism are Christian in but name only because of false teaching and Jesus highlighted that in the parables of the wheat and tares as well as the sheep and the goats. Yes, there are Catholics who do believe in the works of the cross as being enough for salvation yet they still put themselves under a priesthood that do not and the daft thing is that when born again a new believer becomes a priest in his or her own right accordin to the Book to the Hebrews.

  6. #86

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Common Soldier,

    When any system takes a baby and sprinkles it with water at what point does that child know that he or she is a Christian for it is not in the Bible anywhere? The Baptist said that he does so to prepare people for the coming kingdom but that Jesus is the One Who will baptise with the Holy Spirit to make that possibility come true but only after being born again. So, there's a huge gap in the theology here. Millions of people from both Rome and Protestantism are Christian in but name only because of false teaching and Jesus highlighted that in the parables of the wheat and tares as well as the sheep and the goats. Yes, there are Catholics who do believe in the works of the cross as being enough for salvation yet they still put themselves under a priesthood that do not and the daft thing is that when born again a new believer becomes a priest in his or her own right accordin to the Book to the Hebrews.

    Might I suggest you start a new thread where we can discuss these things, instead of hijacking this thread further? I could respond, but I don't want to divert the thread even further from its topic, which is about Islam.

  7. #87
    basics's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    9,092

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Common Soldier,

    May I suggest that it is all interrelated because Islam rejects Jesus as the Christ Whom the prophets of God foretold through the centuries just as most of the Jews did before it. Before one can discuss weakness in any religion one has to understand where that weakness comes from and so it is only right and proper to root out the falseness that is in Christianity that gives credence to any anti-Christ religions. Oh it might look like a distraction but believe me it is not. In Mohammed's time he was confronted by two major beliefs outside of the usual Arab ones which worshipped many gods. The two were fundamentally built on the Old Testament and it was to this that Mohammed began to build his system and clearly remains his system to this day. The very idea that men might be saved other than by works, their own works, was and still is the stumbling block to them as well as Rome. So, Justification by Faith alone is the weakness of both Islam and Rome.

  8. #88

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Common Soldier,

    May I suggest that it is all interrelated because Islam rejects Jesus as the Christ Whom the prophets of God foretold through the centuries just as most of the Jews did before it. Before one can discuss weakness in any religion one has to understand where that weakness comes from and so it is only right and proper to root out the falseness that is in Christianity that gives credence to any anti-Christ religions. Oh it might look like a distraction but believe me it is not. In Mohammed's time he was confronted by two major beliefs outside of the usual Arab ones which worshipped many gods. The two were fundamentally built on the Old Testament and it was to this that Mohammed began to build his system and clearly remains his system to this day. The very idea that men might be saved other than by works, their own works, was and still is the stumbling block to them as well as Rome. So, Justification by Faith alone is the weakness of both Islam and Rome.
    I would argue that you are incorrect in your analysis of Catholic beliefs. I see that Catholics believe you are justified by faith, but their opinion is that if your faith doesn't produced concrete results, is your belief real? In the New Testament Letter of James, he clearly makes this point:

    In Chapter 2, James says: 14 What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,” but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
    Neither James nor modern Catholics are saying that you are justified by your works, that you can somehow earn you way into salvation. Rather, that if you truly have faith, it should be reflected in your actions. If I believe that flying is safe, but still don't have "faith" enough to get on an airplane and fly, what is the point of my belief that flying is safe? Can I even truly say I believe flying is safe, if I don't have the faith to put it to the test. It is not fair or accurate to compare the beliefs of the Catholics and similar groups like Orthodox, with those of the Muslims, since there are fundamental differences. Catholics most certainly believe in the saving power of Jesus' death and resurrection, and it is central to their belief, while Muslims don't believe in the saving power of Jesus death, and many Muslims don't even believe Jesus died on the cross.

    While you criticisms of Islam may be correct, I have heard it said that Islam is an "orthopraxy" religion, where right actions and conducts is what really matters, rather than right belief, but that does not seem to be true for Catholics. The 5 pillars of Islams all are some form of act, rather than a belief. Even the Shahadah, the Muslim public proclamation of belief in Allah, the emphasis is on the public act of proclaiming the faith rather than on the inner belief.

    But right beliefs matter to Catholics as to Protestants. Even if the Catholics include a lot of accessory baggage with their belief, what the Catholics believe is important to them as to Protestants. And I would argue that Catholicism is even less influenced by the Old Testament than many Protestants are. You don't see the popularity of Old Testament names, for example, similar to what you seem among some Protestants. It was Protestants who rejected the deuterocanonical books largely because they were not found in the Jewish Hebrew Old Testamant (but had been found in the Greek version of the Old Testament that influenced early Christians, since the writers of the New Testament wrote in Greek). Protestantism was a much, perhaps even more, influenced by the Old Testament than Catholicism.

    The Koran doesn't seem to have any source material directly from either the Old Testament nor the New Testament, but rather all its material that parallels stories from the Old Testament seem to be derived from Jewish folk tales that were inspired by the Old Testament. Although, Islam's practices seem much more derived from and influenced by Jewish practices than Christians ones, be they Orthodox or Catholic. Things like circumcision and banning of certain foods like pork are practices similar to Jewish ones, but we don't find any similar practices borrowed from Catholic or other Christian ones, like baptism, or celebrating something like the eucharist. And none of the stories about Jesus or Mary in the Koran comes from the New Testament, but rather from the apocryphal gospels rejected by the Catholic and other Christian groups, stories such as Jesus turning clay birds into real ones. So any borrowing by Muhammad from the Old Testament or the New Testament was indirect, and I am not sure that Muhammad had any direct contact with Christians, or the Koran wouldn't have the errors in it regarding Christians as it does. For example Koran 5:116 where the Koran implies Christians worship Mary as one of the Trinity, which is obviously false, and that Miriam, the sister of Aaron and Moses, was the mother of Jesus (Koran 19:27-28, 66:12), again an error. Mary is the Greek version of the name Miriam, so we can see how such an error arose, but it is hard to see how someone with direct knowledge of Christians could confuse Miriam and Mary.

    This is one of the major problems with the Koran, since it claims things about Jews and Christians and their sacred scriptures that are not true, which sets up direct conflict and unavoidable conflict with these religions. Since Muhammad and Islam did not exist when the Old Testament an New Testament were written, there isn't a similar explicit conflict in the OT and NT with Islam, since they have nothing specific to say about Islam similar to what Islam has to say about Judaism and Christianity by the simple virtue of the fact they were written before Islam arose. The Koran is quite critical of what are core Christian beliefs for most Christians, and can also be quite critical of Jews at times. Given the Koran's importance to Muslims, it makes is likely that some amount of hostility and confrontation almost inevitable.

  9. #89
    Praefectus
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6,250

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    @Basics.

    Its shows no respect to your fellow posters to preach off topic, and its also a breach of the ToS.

    Only a couple of posts ITT actually address the issue, the rest is a mess of stupid bigotry and off topic self indulgent rambling.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  10. #90
    basics's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    9,092

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Cyclops,

    OK, look at it this way, the question begs what are the strengths or weaknesses of Islam and the answer lies in both its physicality and its spirituality which can only be measured by what it has done and is doing. There is no doubt that its strength comes by the sword and in certain areas of the world that is still so. Its biggest weakness is that it guarantees nothing to its adherents about the afterlife. The only certainty may be that God may have mercy but that mercy comes by works without payment for any wrongs done. As God is just and true then His justice being that no sinner can enter heaven how do they get there? Islam beheads, cuts off limbs and kills in its justice yet it doesn't allow God to do the same for if He did as islam does then paradise must be full of disfigured men and women. Its biggest weakness is that the same Jesus Whom it rejects is coming to judge them and at His next arrival He's coming to pronounce the wrath of Almighty God on both the living and the dead for all their unGodliness. Yes, this God Who became a man to die for the sins of the world is to be its judge not because they believe rather that they have never believed and so must pay the price for sin themselves.

  11. #91

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    You preach it, basics! The end is nigh! Repent now, Muslims, or burn at the hand of the holy crusaders and God Almighty!

    Islam has the flaws and weaknesses of all religions. It's good for controlling the masses but bad for any intellectual advancements.

  12. #92

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bethrezen View Post

    Islam has the flaws and weaknesses of all religions. It's good for controlling the masses but bad for any intellectual advancements.
    To be fair to Islam, the sense of community helped the exchange od ideas and promote innovation for a time. If is just that Islam, like most religions, comes with a lot of negative baggage as well. Of course, what is innovative and forward thinking in thr 7th through 10th century is hopelessly backwards and regressive today

  13. #93
    basics's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    9,092

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    It is written that, " every knee shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord." Now since Islam acknowledges that it is Jesus Who is coming back to judge all things and it rejecting what is written would anyone claim that is not a weakness in its system?

Page 5 of 5 FirstFirst 12345

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •