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Thread: New Unit - Help!

  1. #21
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Anyway, here are some images of the updated version: https://imgur.com/a/8rTQew5
    And the images of the older version in case you want to compare: https://imgur.com/a/5KtGxN3

  2. #22

    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Highly trained seems to be only given to phalanx units, I think it's due to their need to be very close to each other. I will reduce their defensive skill to 11 and their morale to 10. But I still may change their throwing spears to soliferrum, it will depend on what Trarco says.
    Highly trained its used by a lot of line infantry specially above some quality. Depending on equipment and tradition some get it despite been a unit with less training while others are restricted to he "better"/more elite versions of the units.

    All hoplites types that are average or above get it (for hoplites even the mercenary ones), roman heavy infantry gets it barring the hastati (that are the less trained and experienced). On thureos bearing units, highly trained its reserved for the elite version (epilektoi thorakitai). Shock cavalry seems to be mostly highly trained (lydians, tessalians, aspidotai, heitaroi, parashim, cataphracts, celt nobles...) only the standard medium hippeis are only trained of those that are shock oriented and probably due to their mediocre quality due to lack of tradition/training.

    This unit mixed the tradition (they come from a unit thats highly trained) use the equipment of units that are mostly highly trained, and they are experienced and above average in quality. So thats why they felt like a clear candidate for highly trained. Maybe we would need to seek how the unit was described/behaved in actual combat during Annibal's campaigns to see whats the proper formation for them maybe.

    We will either find a way, or make one.



  3. #23
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    Highly trained its used by a lot of line infantry specially above some quality. Depending on equipment and tradition some get it despite been a unit with less training while others are restricted to he "better"/more elite versions of the units.

    All hoplites types that are average or above get it (for hoplites even the mercenary ones), roman heavy infantry gets it barring the hastati (that are the less trained and experienced). On thureos bearing units, highly trained its reserved for the elite version (epilektoi thorakitai). Shock cavalry seems to be mostly highly trained (lydians, tessalians, aspidotai, heitaroi, parashim, cataphracts, celt nobles...) only the standard medium hippeis are only trained of those that are shock oriented and probably due to their mediocre quality due to lack of tradition/training.

    This unit mixed the tradition (they come from a unit thats highly trained) use the equipment of units that are mostly highly trained, and they are experienced and above average in quality. So thats why they felt like a clear candidate for highly trained. Maybe we would need to seek how the unit was described/behaved in actual combat during Annibal's campaigns to see whats the proper formation for them maybe.
    Are you sure? I checked the descr_unit and only the phalanx units with the sarissa have the higly_trained attribute.
    Because if it is something I can give without being only reserved to that specific type of unit I may consider giving them since they were surely highly trained units.


    Edit: For vanilla it seems that it was given to: All pikes are Highly Trained and a lot of eastern cavalry is too. These units move in tight synchronicity and when they stop they rarely need to reform. Great for cavalry as you don't have to factor in preparation time. The only western cavalry with this trait are the Order Knights, but most elite level eastern cavalry have it: Kataphractoi, Mamluks, Mongol Heavy Lancers and upwards.
    Last edited by Lusitanio; September 05, 2019 at 10:31 AM.

  4. #24
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    I have seen exceptions in some cases regarding defensive skill but fine, I will give it 10 defensive skill since this guys are an elite veteran unit. For morale I'm going to check other units but I think they willbe given 8 like the Sacred Band.
    That makes them out of sync with all the other units. Infantry have defensive skill of 3 (levies), 6 (semi-professionals, highlanders or raiders), 9 (professionals and veterans) or 12 (elites), unless they are using an aspis (in which case it is lower than normal for their class).

    They are not an elite like the Sacred Band, who are much like the royal guard.

    EDIT: Did you use the formula to calculate their cost (upkeep is 3/16th the recruit cost this produces)?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    A: values 1 through 4
    - 1 = levy
    - 2 = regular infantryman and light cavalry
    - 3 = elite infantryman and regular cavalry
    - 4 = elite cavalry

    B:Addition of armor values depending on unit
    - helmet +1
    - 1 greave +0.5
    - 2 greaves +1
    - soft armour +0.5
    - scale shirt, and linothorax +1
    - mail +1.5
    - breatplate +2
    - cheires + 1
    - small shield +0.5
    - large shield +1.0

    C: weapons
    - sword +1
    - spear +1 (including kontos, sarissa, xyston)
    - dagger +0.25
    - longsword, kopis +1.5
    - rhomphaia +2
    - sling +0.1
    - simple bow +0.25
    - recurve bow +0.5
    - javelins +0.5
    - longchai +1.0
    - pila/soliferra +1.5
    - axe +0.75
    - club +0.5

    D: 2 through 3 based on green through elite
    2 = levy/green and skirmishers
    2.25 = militia-type units, drafted regionals, or semi-professionals
    2.5 = regular
    2.75 = veteran
    3 = elite

    F: Number of men in unit on normal setting

    H: horse type
    Camel = 5.5
    Pony = 6
    Horse = 7
    Nisaean = 8
    1/2 barding = +2
    3/4 barding = +3
    full barding = +4

    Equation:
    cost = F[D(A+B+C+H)]
    Last edited by QuintusSertorius; September 05, 2019 at 04:30 PM.

  5. #25

    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Are you sure? I checked the descr_unit and only the phalanx units with the sarissa have the higly_trained attribute.
    Because if it is something I can give without being only reserved to that specific type of unit I may consider giving them since they were surely highly trained units.


    Edit: For vanilla it seems that it was given to: All pikes are Highly Trained and a lot of eastern cavalry is too. These units move in tight synchronicity and when they stop they rarely need to reform. Great for cavalry as you don't have to factor in preparation time. The only western cavalry with this trait are the Order Knights, but most elite level eastern cavalry have it: Kataphractoi, Mamluks, Mongol Heavy Lancers and upwards.
    Errr, your affirmation confuses me. I find 88 units that have the highly_trained stat in export_descr_unit.txt using the count command (89 matches but the first one is the explanation of what the stat means in the comment section). And all those I mentioned are among them. Even "barbarians" have some though is rarer for them, specially on infantry.

    What file are you checking? Because this number matches that of the very file you udpated as part of your submod so its not a local difference.



    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    That makes them out of sync with all the other units. Infantry have defensive skill of 3 (levies), 6 (semi-professionals, highlanders or raiders), 9 (professionals and veterans) or 12 (elites), unless they are using an aspis (in which case it is lower than normal for their class).

    They are not an elite like the Sacred Band, who are much like the royal guard.
    Thats mostly true though there is still some variations (justified probably just mentioning its not perfectly standard). For example sacred band and epiloktoi hoplitai have 9 as opposed to 11 of the hyspaspistai despite been the "same" unit. But well they are just rich citiziens with superior training (in the case of the epilektoi also much more plentiful as each city has its own) as opposed as a proper pampered and selected among the best of a a larger pool royal guard. Carthiginian elite cavalry has a similar difference been a bit less skilled than heitaroi (probably same reasons).

    I always found interesting that Baktrians ones have top skill but less armour despite equipment looks similar. Did they went for lighter armour for higher mobility given they fought in the east with tis open terrains and more mobile overall armies?

    Also, I knew for a long time that aspis gives a penalty to defence skill in the mod, but why exactly? Was it that unwieldy? It looks like a relativelly simple shield in its shape and it isnt excesivelly big like others we see in hte mod. And was also used for a quite a long time around the mediterranean which implies it did is job well.
    Last edited by Jervaj; September 05, 2019 at 02:00 PM.

    We will either find a way, or make one.



  6. #26
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    Errr, your affirmation confuses me. I find 88 units that have the highly_trained stat in export_descr_unit.txt using the count command (89 matches but the first one is the explanation of what the stat means in the comment section). And all those I mentioned are among them. Even "barbarians" have some though is rarer for them, specially on infantry.

    What file are you checking? Because this number matches that of the very file you udpated as part of your submod so its not a local difference.
    I found the cause of the confusion. I was looking at the current file of the team build for the next patch, not to the 2.35 file. And for the next patch, highly_trained seems to be only for phalanx sarissa type units. Therefore, the Exalted African Unit will continue to be just trained.

    Here are the updated files, thanks to Alondite who worked on the model and gave it the new helmets, the new shield from Midnite model for DBM and changed the color on one crest.

    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/down...o=file&id=4481

  7. #27

    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    I found the cause of the confusion. I was looking at the current file of the team build for the next patch, not to the 2.35 file. And for the next patch, highly_trained seems to be only for phalanx sarissa type units. Therefore, the Exalted African Unit will continue to be just trained.

    Here are the updated files, thanks to Alondite who worked on the model and gave it the new helmets, the new shield from Midnite model for DBM and changed the color on one crest.

    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/down...o=file&id=4481
    Really? Mmm, it would be weird to lack proper close order formations on all those units. Lines are gonna be a lot more messy it seems.

    We will either find a way, or make one.



  8. #28
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    Really? Mmm, it would be weird to lack proper close order formations on all those units. Lines are gonna be a lot more messy it seems.
    That's Ibrahim's intent with the new formations, to make things a little less orderly.

  9. #29
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    Really? Mmm, it would be weird to lack proper close order formations on all those units. Lines are gonna be a lot more messy it seems.
    It changed so much that I didn't even noticed on my testings x) To be fair, I have been mostly doing tests for traits and events, not battles, so I fought only few battles on the last months.

  10. #30

    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    That's Ibrahim's intent with the new formations, to make things a little less orderly.
    How does this affect balance and unit interaction though? Trained was already the most common formation "tightness" and some units trade off were preciselly based on having a cohesive formation (Aspis vs Thureos for example). Feels weird that even elites are gonna have the same level of cohesion than levies now. I guess I will have to wait and see how it actually plays out as given how the game behaves specially with cohesion and such, its difficult to judge without seeing it. But Im very intrigued, and to be honest concerned.

    We will either find a way, or make one.



  11. #31
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    How does this affect balance and unit interaction though? Trained was already the most common formation "tightness" and some units trade off were preciselly based on having a cohesive formation (Aspis vs Thureos for example). Feels weird that even elites are gonna have the same level of cohesion than levies now. I guess I will have to wait and see how it actually plays out as given how the game behaves specially with cohesion and such, its difficult to judge without seeing it. But Im very intrigued, and to be honest concerned.
    There are a lot more units that are untrained now, so there won't be an equivalence that way. If anything, properly ordered infantry will be more noticeable.

  12. #32
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post

    EDIT: Did you use the formula to calculate their cost (upkeep is 3/16th the recruit cost this produces)?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    A: values 1 through 4
    - 1 = levy
    - 2 = regular infantryman and light cavalry
    - 3 = elite infantryman and regular cavalry
    - 4 = elite cavalry

    B:Addition of armor values depending on unit
    - helmet +1
    - 1 greave +0.5
    - 2 greaves +1
    - soft armour +0.5
    - scale shirt, and linothorax +1
    - mail +1.5
    - breatplate +2
    - cheires + 1
    - small shield +0.5
    - large shield +1.0

    C: weapons
    - sword +1
    - spear +1 (including kontos, sarissa, xyston)
    - dagger +0.25
    - longsword, kopis +1.5
    - rhomphaia +2
    - sling +0.1
    - simple bow +0.25
    - recurve bow +0.5
    - javelins +0.5
    - longchai +1.0
    - pila/soliferra +1.5
    - axe +0.75
    - club +0.5

    D: 2 through 3 based on green through elite
    2 = levy/green and skirmishers
    2.25 = militia-type units, drafted regionals, or semi-professionals
    2.5 = regular
    2.75 = veteran
    3 = elite

    F: Number of men in unit on normal setting

    H: horse type
    Camel = 5.5
    Pony = 6
    Horse = 7
    Nisaean = 8
    1/2 barding = +2
    3/4 barding = +3
    full barding = +4

    Equation:
    cost = F[D(A+B+C+H)]
    Just noticed now your edit. I did at first but then considered that this soldiers would be veterans which would require large amounts of booty to be paid and they should be an economic strain on the player economy, so I went for the current values. I'm not against anyone who wants to follow the formula.

  13. #33
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Just noticed now your edit. I did at first but then considered that this soldiers would be veterans which would require large amounts of booty to be paid and they should be an economic strain on the player economy, so I went for the current values. I'm not against anyone who wants to follow the formula.
    Sorry, but every unit follows the formula. This is more important than every other element of standardisation in the statting.

  14. #34
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Sorry, but every unit follows the formula. This is more important than every other element of standardisation in the statting.
    If it is that important I can change it, but this is a submod, it's not like the unit is going to be present at the EBII full build so chill
    And I will change on my build but I'm not going to create another download file just for it, I will wait until I get more changes on the unit done.

  15. #35

    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    We have some interesting times ahead, it seems
    I recommend a pugio rather than a spear, because in close quarters combat, a dagger will serve you better than a spear.

    Rad, 2016.

  16. #36

    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    There are a lot more units that are untrained now, so there won't be an equivalence that way. If anything, properly ordered infantry will be more noticeable.
    Umm, well that makes sense. Untrained does make a huge difference as that one is really messy, though trained spacing was already notably superior too, the same unit count took quite more space in the close order variation. I guess you maybe played with other variables too that are unknown to me. I like your last statement too a lot. Very curious to see indeed.

    Seeing you are playing a lot with cohesion, formations and such. Can we expect any changes/improvement on infantry charges? Maybe Im not doing something right, but I think I havent managed a proper infantry charge no matter the conditions for the longest times. Always have this problem of only the first line charging which tends to be counterproductive.

    We will either find a way, or make one.



  17. #37
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    Seeing you are playing a lot with cohesion, formations and such. Can we expect any changes/improvement on infantry charges? Maybe Im not doing something right, but I think I havent managed a proper infantry charge no matter the conditions for the longest times. Always have this problem of only the first line charging which tends to be counterproductive.
    Did you see the post when Quintus asked for players to test different values on charges? Well, increasing the values has a better effect on the charges. It's still not perfect but at least it is a lot better than before.

    By the way Jervaj, could you send me your avatar image? It would be a nice portrait picture for the greeks

  18. #38
    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    I am happy to announce that your request for a couple new Carthaginian shields has been met.
    Unfortunately I don't have the time to rearrange the textures on the texture map for your unit as this would also require a complete rework of the UV map.
    I just don't have the time to do all that.
    Here is the link, right click on them and select download image, feel free to use, with acknowledgement.

  19. #39
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by paleologos View Post
    I am happy to announce that your request for a couple new Carthaginian shields has been met.
    Unfortunately I don't have the time to rearrange the textures on the texture map for your unit as this would also require a complete rework of the UV map.
    I just don't have the time to do all that.
    Here is the link, right click on them and select download image, feel free to use, with acknowledgement.
    Those are great! Thanks! +1 rep from me.
    I will see if Alondite can take care of it.

    Thanks a lot

  20. #40
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    Umm, well that makes sense. Untrained does make a huge difference as that one is really messy, though trained spacing was already notably superior too, the same unit count took quite more space in the close order variation. I guess you maybe played with other variables too that are unknown to me. I like your last statement too a lot. Very curious to see indeed.

    Seeing you are playing a lot with cohesion, formations and such. Can we expect any changes/improvement on infantry charges? Maybe Im not doing something right, but I think I havent managed a proper infantry charge no matter the conditions for the longest times. Always have this problem of only the first line charging which tends to be counterproductive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Did you see the post when Quintus asked for players to test different values on charges? Well, increasing the values has a better effect on the charges. It's still not perfect but at least it is a lot better than before.
    As Lusi says, we've extended infantry charge distances which has improved things a little, along with restoring prec. It's a hard one to address without turning the kill rate up (which we can't do without throwing the whole combat balance off).

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