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Thread: New Unit - Help!

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    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default New Unit - Help!

    If you have been following this forum for some time, you might know that I've done a good amount of work trying to add a new unit for Carthage, which is basically a spearmen veteran unit based on Hannibal Veteran Africans.

    Thanks to the contributions of Wermez (who did all the work modelling the unit and textures), Adalingum (who helped a lot with the files in order to be able to have the unit in the game), Midnite (who gave permission to use his shield textures from DBM) and others just as Quintus and Gigantus who gave some suggestions and helped clearing my doubts, I have now the unit implemented in my build.
    However, there is some problem with the textures in the unit that I don't know how to solve and I really need help from someone who understands. It is the only thing stoping the release so if you have some good understanding of how textures and unit models work, please send me a pm.

  2. #2

    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Alletun's Tome of Knoweldge:

    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downl...o=file&id=1672

    Texture files must have height and width in the base of 2, for instance 1024, 512 (pixel's) etc. They must be of the same size (all 4 of them), etc. You have to check whether each of their texture's UV map is on the right place in the texture file, every single one. Use Milkshape's texture editor only for moving UV maps and nothing else, because it's crap. If you need to unwrap the model and create new UV maps you must use 3d studio max. If you don't have 3d studio max then: rutracker.org.

    I am a beginner in creating unit models, but my starting place was aforementioned manuel by Alletun.

    All the best.

    P.S. Use this for conversion of mesh to ms3d and texture to dds: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...-On-06-06-2015
    Last edited by Mr. Blob; August 23, 2019 at 08:06 AM.

  3. #3
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    The unit is ready to go to battle!
    It is finally finished! While there are still things that I would like to change and/or improve, I'm not going to wait for months for it. But if someone is interested in helping, contact me! Anyway, I will release the files either today or tomorrow so that everyone will be able to have the unit in their build.

    You can see the unit here:
    https://imgur.com/a/5KtGxN3

  4. #4

    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Great job. Thank you.

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    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Unit ready to download in my submod page: https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...Revenge-submod

    Follow the instructions and have fun!

  6. #6

    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    AWESOME! i was really sad at the Carthage army because i had to wait 100 + turns to get my "roman armored" troops. I wish there was a way to make units get a Armor bonus after battles like they do with experience. It only makes sense to me that an army as it defeats the enemy begins to take their equipment especially if its chain mail from Romans.

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    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by moisesjns View Post
    AWESOME! i was really sad at the Carthage army because i had to wait 100 + turns to get my "roman armored" troops. I wish there was a way to make units get a Armor bonus after battles like they do with experience. It only makes sense to me that an army as it defeats the enemy begins to take their equipment especially if its chain mail from Romans.
    Well, you still have to wait 100+ turns to get this unit in the game x) And the recruitment is so low that it will take a lot of time for you to have two units in the same army, but they are beasts. Stats related, they are similar to the Elite Hellenic Spearmen (forgot the name), but they have three advantages, the ability to throw javelins, their superior numbers and a great morale. If you fight against them, they will surely be the last unit to break.

    It only makes sense to me that an army as it defeats the enemy begins to take their equipment especially if its chain mail from Romans.
    It does make sense and that is also why the current Carthaginian reforms only trigger after you fought 5 battles with Rome. Defeated armies would also try to adopt the enemy weapons. However, most of the Carthaginian reform is more related with the wars in Spain and the increasing use of thureos in the Mediterranean. Only the use of chain mail and other Roman armour is clearly mentioned as being taken by the Carthaginians after being victorious in battle.

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    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    They appear to be a Carthaginian version of the Thorakitai - both from their equipment and description.

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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    They appear to be a Carthaginian version of the Thorakitai - both from their equipment and description.
    On the equipment the Thorakitai Epilektoi have one point of advantage due to they having chainmail but also other types of armours but the Exalted/Elite African Infantry compensate with one more point for their shields.

    About the description, I failed to read the Thorakitai description, I will read to see what you mean Quintus x)

    But since we are talking about these two units, I did a custom battle recently, Seleucids (player) vs Carthaginians (AI) and I had the Thorakitai facing the Elite Africans. The fight went well, the Thorakitai lost 2/3 units at first because the Africans throwed their spears at them, but once they started fighting it was balanced all the way to the end, of course, due to the Africans superior numbers they would win. But my armies routed the Carthaginian armies easily and while they were the last ones still holding, once a phalanx unit started attacking them from behind, they routed.

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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    On the equipment the Thorakitai Epilektoi have one point of advantage due to they having chainmail but also other types of armours but the Exalted/Elite African Infantry compensate with one more point for their shields.

    About the description, I failed to read the Thorakitai description, I will read to see what you mean Quintus x)

    But since we are talking about these two units, I did a custom battle recently, Seleucids (player) vs Carthaginians (AI) and I had the Thorakitai facing the Elite Africans. The fight went well, the Thorakitai lost 2/3 units at first because the Africans throwed their spears at them, but once they started fighting it was balanced all the way to the end, of course, due to the Africans superior numbers they would win. But my armies routed the Carthaginian armies easily and while they were the last ones still holding, once a phalanx unit started attacking them from behind, they routed.
    The Thorakitai Epilektoi are a royal guard, this unit doesn't seem to be an equally elite equivalent. They're veterans, but that makes them similar to the Thorakitai, who are also professionals.

  11. #11

    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    The Thorakitai Epilektoi are a royal guard, this unit doesn't seem to be an equally elite equivalent. They're veterans, but that makes them similar to the Thorakitai, who are also professionals.
    A question. What unit in fits best this african infantry that formed the core of Annibal's and other carthaginian armies at the time and that eventually became this group of often remarked loyal african veterans that updated their equipment? Dorekim Afriqim? They are mentioned to be heavy compared to other units or mercenaries and, although average in stats, thats the only really heavy infantry in the Carthaginian roster until the reforms is that one alongside the elite sacred band that was too scarce for that. I guess maybe their overall higher loyalty its what amde them stand out, and with enough experience they did become very effective.

    We will either find a way, or make one.



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    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    The Thorakitai Epilektoi are a royal guard, this unit doesn't seem to be an equally elite equivalent. They're veterans, but that makes them similar to the Thorakitai, who are also professionals.
    I will have to read about the Thorakitai. Since I have been playtesting for so much time, I simply stoped reading the descriptions because I don't have time for that x)

    But while I do agree that they are not royal guard, they are the product of being mobilized for active duty for decades in the Carthaginian military in active wars. After Hamilqar disembarked in Iberia, the troops there were in constant conflict with the Iberian tribes, translating in the expansion of the Carthaginian territories. When the time of Hannibal arrived, he had already years of experience as cavalry commander and knew what his army was capable of. This guys are not just veterans, they are the veterans of the veterans x) In Hannibal times they proved that they were some of the most disciplined troops in history.

    Just a remark, Carthaginian veterans seem to have been of a really higher quality then other Carthaginian troops. We can see that from the Punic-Greek wars, especially when Agathocles saw that we could not defeat the experienced Carthaginian armies in Sicily and invaded Africa where he would face less experienced troops. Then again the Mercenary troops that faced the Romans during the Siege of Lilybaeum, when they came back to Carthage to be paid, they felt sufficient powerful to challenge Carthages itself, they lost more due to bad leadership then their own quality. And the Second Punic war gives us plenty of examples between the differences of experienced Carthaginian troops and regular troops.

    A question. What unit in fits best this african infantry that formed the core of Annibal's and other carthaginian armies at the time and that eventually became this group of often remarked loyal african veterans that updated their equipment? Dorekim Afriqim? They are mentioned to be heavy compared to other units or mercenaries and, although average in stats, thats the only really heavy infantry in the Carthaginian roster until the reforms is that one alongside the elite sacred band that was too scarce for that. I guess maybe their overall higher loyalty its what amde them stand out, and with enough experience they did become very effective.
    You said it. Dorekim Afriqim when you need heavy infantry. Later on, as the Carthaginian armies evolve, you have the Libyan Swordsmen and the Dorekim Afriqim with chainmail. The Late Libyan Spearmen don't have chainmail. The sacred band is a unit that you should use in the African core regions (mostly to defend Carthage and Atig) and in Sicily on special occasions (like a big Carthaginian invasion).

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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    A question. What unit in fits best this african infantry that formed the core of Annibal's and other carthaginian armies at the time and that eventually became this group of often remarked loyal african veterans that updated their equipment? Dorekim Afriqim? They are mentioned to be heavy compared to other units or mercenaries and, although average in stats, thats the only really heavy infantry in the Carthaginian roster until the reforms is that one alongside the elite sacred band that was too scarce for that. I guess maybe their overall higher loyalty its what amde them stand out, and with enough experience they did become very effective.
    Pretty much as Lusitanio says:

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    You said it. Dorekim Afriqim when you need heavy infantry. Later on, as the Carthaginian armies evolve, you have the Libyan Swordsmen and the Dorekim Afriqim with chainmail. The Late Libyan Spearmen don't have chainmail. The sacred band is a unit that you should use in the African core regions (mostly to defend Carthage and Atig) and in Sicily on special occasions (like a big Carthaginian invasion).
    The "reformed" units fit that slot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    I will have to read about the Thorakitai. Since I have been playtesting for so much time, I simply stoped reading the descriptions because I don't have time for that x)

    But while I do agree that they are not royal guard, they are the product of being mobilized for active duty for decades in the Carthaginian military in active wars. After Hamilqar disembarked in Iberia, the troops there were in constant conflict with the Iberian tribes, translating in the expansion of the Carthaginian territories. When the time of Hannibal arrived, he had already years of experience as cavalry commander and knew what his army was capable of. This guys are not just veterans, they are the veterans of the veterans x) In Hannibal times they proved that they were some of the most disciplined troops in history.

    Just a remark, Carthaginian veterans seem to have been of a really higher quality then other Carthaginian troops. We can see that from the Punic-Greek wars, especially when Agathocles saw that we could not defeat the experienced Carthaginian armies in Sicily and invaded Africa where he would face less experienced troops. Then again the Mercenary troops that faced the Romans during the Siege of Lilybaeum, when they came back to Carthage to be paid, they felt sufficient powerful to challenge Carthages itself, they lost more due to bad leadership then their own quality. And the Second Punic war gives us plenty of examples between the differences of experienced Carthaginian troops and regular troops.
    Similarly, the Thorakitai represent the best-trained and best-equipped regular Hellenistic forces. There's a justification for a high armour value of 8 or 9 for this unit, since they have a lot of gear, but otherwise I'd expect their stats to be equivalent to the regular Thorakitai. Not equivalent to the Epilektoi, who are the best of the best.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Similarly, the Thorakitai represent the best-trained and best-equipped regular Hellenistic forces. There's a justification for a high armour value of 8 or 9 for this unit, since they have a lot of gear, but otherwise I'd expect their stats to be equivalent to the regular Thorakitai. Not equivalent to the Epilektoi, who are the best of the best.
    Well, I have just read the the descriptions on both Thorakitai and Epilektoi and I have to disagree with you. The Thorakitai seem to be very good professional troops just like the Late Libyan Reformed Carthaginian troops but may be a bit better. (at least better than the Late Libyan Spearmen). While the African Exalted Infantry represents the best-trained, equipped and experienced soldiers in the Carthaginian armies, surely, they are the best of the best, capable of outstanding tactical maneuvres in the battle field, with tremendous morale and fighting skills. So I put them at the same level as the Epilektoi.
    As an example, an in game representation of the battle of Cannae could have 1 Exalted African Infantry unit and 1 Libyan Swordsmen unit with chainmail to represent the veteran African troops.

    By the way, thanks to Alondite, the African Exalted Infantry has now a new look. Two helmets that didn't look very good were replaced (one of the helmets had a weird darker colour compared with the others), there is also a different shield to add more variety and a crest from one of the helmets has been painted white. Later on this day, I will post the files and images of the unit.
    Last edited by Lusitanio; September 04, 2019 at 08:02 AM.

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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Well, I have just read the the descriptions on both Thorakitai and Epilektoi and I have to disagree with you. The Thorakitai seem to be very good professional troops just like the Late Libyan Reformed Carthaginian troops but may be a bit better. (at least better than the Late Libyan Spearmen). While the African Exalted Infantry represents the best-trained, equipped and experienced soldiers in the Carthaginian armies, surely, they are the best of the best, capable of outstanding tactical maneuvres in the battle field, with tremendous morale and fighting skills. So I put them at the same level as the Epilektoi.
    As an example, an in game representation of the battle of Cannae could have 1 Exalted African Infantry unit and 1 Libyan Swordsmen unit with chainmail to represent the veteran African troops.

    By the way, thanks to Alondite, the African Exalted Infantry has now a new look. Two helmets that didn't look very good were replaced (one of the helmets had a weird darker colour compared with the others), there is also a different shield to add more variety and a crest from one of the helmets has been painted white. Later on this day, I will post the files and images of the unit.
    Royal guard units are an elite who are trained from a very young age, with all the best things available to them. These Libyans started out as regular levied Libyan soldiers; while veterans, they are not a pampered elite like the Agema, they don't have the same years of training prior to service. They're a very good professional unit, not an elite one.

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    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Royal guard units are an elite who are trained from a very young age, with all the best things available to them. These Libyans started out as regular levied Libyan soldiers; while veterans, they are not a pampered elite like the Agema, they don't have the same years of training prior to service. They're a very good professional unit, not an elite one.
    They don't have the same years of training prior to service but they do have a lot of years of active duty in constant fighting against the Iberian tribes, Gallics and later Italians (following Hamilcar, Hasdrubal and later, Hannibaal troops) which makes them an elite professional unit, not just a very good professional unit.
    But I do see a point in that they do not have as much training at a very young age as the Royal guard units so I will consider reducing their defensive skill from 12 to 11 but I will also ask Trarco about their throwing spears since currently they have normal throwing spears like the Late Libyans (I remember seing one post by Trarco discussing why the team decided for that type of spears and not others more heavy like the Iberian soliferrum) and I will see if it is possible to give them those spears instead of the others.

  17. #17

    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    They don't have the same years of training prior to service but they do have a lot of years of active duty in constant fighting against the Iberian tribes, Gallics and later Italians (following Hamilcar, Hasdrubal and later, Hannibaal troops) which makes them an elite professional unit, not just a very good professional unit.
    But I do see a point in that they do not have as much training at a very young age as the Royal guard units so I will consider reducing their defensive skill from 12 to 11 but I will also ask Trarco about their throwing spears since currently they have normal throwing spears like the Late Libyans (I remember seing one post by Trarco discussing why the team decided for that type of spears and not others more heavy like the Iberian soliferrum) and I will see if it is possible to give them those spears instead of the others.
    I guess the thing is that those units would probably fit better as "thorakitai" (in terms of comparison of stats and all) with a lot of chevrons rather than having the higher stats.

    PD: Im a fan of this unit myself, but seen the actual unit stats, I feel like armour and shield values are quite fitting given their gear, but 12 defensive skills is too much. A lot of elites dont have it themselves. I think 9 is more fitting and they will still perform great. Morale is also too high. 12 is bodyguard level. Even if you want to consider them elite morale wise it should be 8. THe up I would give them from now would be making them highly trained instead of trained. I dont see why they would change. They are the evolution of a unit that was already used to fighting in tight formation, and while adapting to the gear may be difficult, its the gear of units that are also considered "highly trained" and we are considering them above par after all due tot heir experience and all.

    We will either find a way, or make one.



  18. #18
    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Jervaj View Post
    I guess the thing is that those units would probably fit better as "thorakitai" (in terms of comparison of stats and all) with a lot of chevrons rather than having the higher stats.

    PD: Im a fan of this unit myself, but seen the actual unit stats, I feel like armour and shield values are quite fitting given their gear, but 12 defensive skills is too much. A lot of elites dont have it themselves. I think 9 is more fitting and they will still perform great. Morale is also too high. 12 is bodyguard level. Even if you want to consider them elite morale wise it should be 8. THe up I would give them from now would be making them highly trained instead of trained. I dont see why they would change. They are the evolution of a unit that was already used to fighting in tight formation, and while adapting to the gear may be difficult, its the gear of units that are also considered "highly trained" and we are considering them above par after all due tot heir experience and all.
    Highly trained seems to be only given to phalanx units, I think it's due to their need to be very close to each other. I will reduce their defensive skill to 11 and their morale to 10. But I still may change their throwing spears to soliferrum, it will depend on what Trarco says.

  19. #19
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Highly trained seems to be only given to phalanx units, I think it's due to their need to be very close to each other. I will reduce their defensive skill to 11 and their morale to 10. But I still may change their throwing spears to soliferrum, it will depend on what Trarco says.
    That does not fit with the fairly rigorous system used by every other unit. Defensive skill isn't something chosen at random, they are fixed values for classes of unit (which is 9 for professionals and veterans not using an aspis). Nor does anything merit a morale score of 10 without being a bodyguard. They're overpowered.

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    Lusitanio's Avatar Content Staff
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    Default Re: New Unit - Help!

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    That does not fit with the fairly rigorous system used by every other unit. Defensive skill isn't something chosen at random, they are fixed values for classes of unit (which is 9 for professionals and veterans not using an aspis). Nor does anything merit a morale score of 10 without being a bodyguard. They're overpowered.
    I have seen exceptions in some cases regarding defensive skill but fine, I will give it 10 defensive skill since this guys are an elite veteran unit. For morale I'm going to check other units but I think they willbe given 8 like the Sacred Band.

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