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Thread: Bernie's Green New Deal

  1. #21

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    So the problem is the messenger, and not the message? Is the solution to chuck a few Neo-Nazis into some of the top Uni's so the message gets across?

    In other words, the problem is as I've always suspected. Idiocy.
    Human beings naturally respond with greater scepticism to sources they are distrustful of. Simply calling people "idiots" is not only a misrepresentation of reality its entirely counterproductive.



  2. #22

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Actually it’s a lack of trust in academic institutions to be impartial.
    So the whole concept of peer review isn't really a thing amongst climate change deniers?

  3. #23

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Human beings naturally respond with greater scepticism to sources they are distrustful of. Simply calling people "idiots" is not only a misrepresentation of reality its entirely counterproductive.
    I beg to differ. If people honestly think the random bloke on YouTube wearing the tin-foil hat and blaming everything on "The Libs", is more of a reputable source of information than a peer reviewed scientific journal. Than yes, he/she is an idiot.

  4. #24

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    I beg to differ. If people honestly think the random bloke on YouTube wearing the tin-foil hat and blaming everything on "The Libs", is more of a reputable source of information than a peer reviewed scientific journal. Than yes, he/she is an idiot.
    The reality is that virtually no one actually reads peer reviewed scientific journals. Most people's opinions are formed on the basis of second or third hand accounts which they get through the press.



  5. #25
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    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Part of the problem is a lack of trust in university research caused by the severe over representation of progressivism/liberalism within faculties. Another part of the problem is that people perceive climate change to have been drastically oversold.
    I guess we should introduce some sort of quota for conservative academics within faculties. An 'affirmative action', if you will.

    In any case, there are all manner of reasons why liberals/progressives are over represented in academic institutions and it seems a bit daft to distrust them just because of their political leanings if there are no other reasons to doubt their trustworthiness (e.g. their work has been shown to be deliberately misleading). Most law enforcement officials lean conservative, does that mean we should distrust them even if it can be seen that they do their work objectively?
    "I pray Heaven to bestow the best of blessings on this house and all that shall hereafter inhabit it. May none but honest and wise men ever rule under this roof."
    - John Adams, on the White House, in a letter to Abigail Adams (2 November 1800)

  6. #26

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    I guess we should introduce some sort of quota for conservative academics within faculties. An 'affirmative action', if you will.

    In any case, there are all manner of reasons why liberals/progressives are over represented in academic institutions and it seems a bit daft to distrust them just because of their political leanings if there are no other reasons to doubt their trustworthiness (e.g. their work has been shown to be deliberately misleading). Most law enforcement officials lean conservative, does that mean we should distrust them even if it can be seen that they do their work objectively?
    I dare say that if I were to drag up the statistics I'd find that law enforcement officers were far less trusted among progressives/liberals than they are among conservatives.



  7. #27

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Most of the parts that aren’t directly related to climate change, such as talk about minority communities and labour unions.
    How much of the plan is associated with those concepts?


    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    I dare say that if I were to drag up the statistics I'd find that law enforcement officers were far less trusted among progressives/liberals than they are among conservatives.
    And you find their concern valid?
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; August 23, 2019 at 09:39 AM.
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  8. #28

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    The Democrats need policies like this to be supported by centrists as well as Socialists, in order to reach out to the Republicans in bipartisan fashion. Climate change is bipartisan in the UK it can be the same in America.

    Dissociating green energy from socialism and progressivism would be a good start to make people less fearful or sceptical.
    After Obama tried repeatedly to reach out to Republicans for ACA and they screamed about death panels I'd say that any attempt to get Republicans on board with anything Democrats want is a waste of time. We just have to assume they will never support anything we want for the sole reason that we support it.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    I've never understood climate change denial. How do you get to the point where you say, "Tens of thousands of eminent, reputable scientists with their peer reviewed research are all wrong and the bloke on YouTube wearing the tin foil hat is obviously right"?
    Four reasons:

    1: Because Republicanism in general is deeply distrustful of education (or liberal indoctrination as they call it).

    2: Most Republican sources are openly biased, existing to keep the viewer angry and afraid. Republicans then assume that all other sources must be equally as biased, particularly if those sources says things they don't want to hear.

    3: Narcissism. The idea that they know better then those fancy scientists with their fancy degrees and book learning appeals to their massive, overblown egos.

    4: The big polluters who own the Republican party don't want to change, so they use Republican media to spread lies and conspiracy theories to discredit legitimate science.

  9. #29

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    And you find their concern valid?
    Some of it.



  10. #30
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    I dare say that if I were to drag up the statistics I'd find that law enforcement officers were far less trusted among progressives/liberals than they are among conservatives.
    And what would be the relevance of you doing so?
    "I pray Heaven to bestow the best of blessings on this house and all that shall hereafter inhabit it. May none but honest and wise men ever rule under this roof."
    - John Adams, on the White House, in a letter to Abigail Adams (2 November 1800)

  11. #31

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    As far as I know, the reality of human impact on climate change is only considered a politically partisan issue within the US. Europeans, feel free to correct the record if necessary.


    In other words, there are people who believe the earth is flat, but that does not mean they should not be dismissed as idiots merely because allegedly biased academics claim the earth is round.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  12. #32
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    So the whole concept of peer review isn't really a thing amongst climate change deniers?
    The problem is they believe the peers are all ideologically compromised. It’s yours and my job to make the case that this is either not the case, or climate change is manmade anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    And what would be the relevance of you doing so?
    To show that when institutions lack ideological/political balance or are otherwise poorly representative they begin to alienate minority groups and that this is as true for liberals as it is for conservatives.



  14. #34

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    I guess we should introduce some sort of quota for conservative academics within faculties. An 'affirmative action', if you will.

    In any case, there are all manner of reasons why liberals/progressives are over represented in academic institutions and it seems a bit daft to distrust them just because of their political leanings if there are no other reasons to doubt their trustworthiness (e.g. their work has been shown to be deliberately misleading). Most law enforcement officials lean conservative, does that mean we should distrust them even if it can be seen that they do their work objectively?
    Generally speaking, being deliberately misleading isn't really the main problem, it's the lack of individuals involved in the peer-review process able to poke holes in the arguments of researchers which have been missed due to ideological blindspots. Without viewpoint diversity, academics can't effectively serve the function of being the solution to each other's confirmation bias.

    That said, there are also entire departments devoted to advocacy research, whose members generally reject the concept of objective truth and see the "production of knowledge" as serving one function - power.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  15. #35
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    I guess we should introduce some sort of quota for conservative academics within faculties. An 'affirmative action', if you will.

    In any case, there are all manner of reasons why liberals/progressives are over represented in academic institutions and it seems a bit daft to distrust them just because of their political leanings if there are no other reasons to doubt their trustworthiness (e.g. their work has been shown to be deliberately misleading). Most law enforcement officials lean conservative, does that mean we should distrust them even if it can be seen that they do their work objectively?
    It doesn’t matter if they’re over represented, as long as they don’t abuse their position by acting on that bias this won’t be an issue. That’s not the case unfortunately. I don’t believe it is inevitable, I have faith in people’s ability to put science first and thus I am not a climate denier. For example, Cambridge is thought to be more actively progressive than Oxford as a University, which I assume is despite them having similar political breakdowns.
    Last edited by Aexodus; August 23, 2019 at 10:12 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    To show that when institutions lack ideological/political balance or are otherwise poorly representative they begin to alienate minority groups and that this is as true for liberals as it is for conservatives.
    Is calling for 'ideological/political balance' not as daft as calling for 'gender/race balance'? Just to clarify, are you arguing for a political balance in academia or were you just stating why people might feel alienated?

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Generally speaking, being deliberately misleading isn't really the main problem, it's the lack of individuals involved in the peer-review process able to poke holes in the arguments of researchers which have been missed due to ideological blindspots. Without viewpoint diversity, academics can't effectively serve the function of being the solution to each other's confirmation bias.

    That said, there are also entire departments devoted to advocacy research, whose members generally reject the concept of objective truth and see the "production of knowledge" as serving one function - power.
    In terms of climate research, what ideological blindspot could a liberal have that a conservative wouldn't, though? Is the issue really that pronounced that people are justified in their distrust of academia just because it happens to be dominated by liberals?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    It doesn’t matter if they’re over represented, as long as they don’t abuse their position by acting on that bias this won’t be an issue. That’s not the case unfortunately. I don’t believe it is inevitable, I have faith in people’s ability to put science first and thus I am not a climate denier. For example, Cambridge is thought to be more actively progressive than Oxford as a University, which I assume is despite them having similar political breakdowns.
    That case seems unfortunate, but it's hardly representative of wider academia. Are swathes of 'anti-liberal' academics or viewpoints being dismissed or censored?
    "I pray Heaven to bestow the best of blessings on this house and all that shall hereafter inhabit it. May none but honest and wise men ever rule under this roof."
    - John Adams, on the White House, in a letter to Abigail Adams (2 November 1800)

  17. #37

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Katsumoto View Post
    Is calling for 'ideological/political balance' not as daft as calling for 'gender/race balance'?
    That depends on the context. When we observe disparate outcomes which have no obvious explanation and are well outside of any conceivable natural range it can be worth considering discrimination. In instances where university departments have a 33:1 ratio of registered Democrat professors vs registered Republican professors I think you'd have a hard time convincing anyone that prejudice isn't involved.

    Just to clarify, are you arguing for a political balance in academia or were you just stating why people might feel alienated?
    The purpose of my post was to suggest why some people reject climate change theories, though as it so happens I do also believe in political balance in academia.
    Last edited by Cope; August 23, 2019 at 11:44 AM.



  18. #38
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    That case seems unfortunate, but it's hardly representative of wider academia. Are swathes of 'anti-liberal' academics or viewpoints being dismissed or censored?
    In the climate change field of research at least, no I personally don’t believe so. Some do think that because of the cases above where the political toxicity in Uni goes too far.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Is there actually any data confirming that global warming acceptance is disproportionately endorsed by "liberal" professors? Perhaps right-wing academics tend to be more skeptical about the severity of the situation, but, frankly, but the scientific consesus about the reality of the greenhouse effect and its broader repercussions is so massive that I personally doubt that progressives are more willing to recognize it than their conservative colleagues. In fact, denialism is essentially limited to the United States, with the Republican Party being the only moderately right-wing political institution in the "democratic world" persistently refusing to face the facts.

    The Republican position, which has essentially been radicalised in the 21st century, in comparison to Nixon's more benign perspective, is probably explained by the obsession of American conservatism with the dogma of domestic consumption and "laissez-faire" economics and especially by the generous donations of the fossil industry's lobbying. Meanwhile, in Europe, climate denial has only recently been adopted by right-wing extremists, in what is presumably an imitation of the overseas successful recipe. Donald tweeting about the "Chinese hoax" probably motivated many of his fans to copy his tactics, although denial of global warming is still not as prominent ideologically as blood purity and Jewish subversion. Finally, from my experience, the political affiliations of the intellectual elites is a total non-issue even for the most determined voter of the National Rally, at least until Marine realises that complaining over it may advance her professional career.

  20. #40
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdulmecid
    although denial of global warming is still not as prominent ideologically as blood purity and Jewish subversion.
    wait wut?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Himster View Post
    The trick is to never be honest. That's what this social phenomenon is engineering: publicly conform, or else.

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