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Thread: Bernie's Green New Deal

  1. #1

    Default Bernie's Green New Deal

    Bernie Sanders proposes $16.3 trillion Green New Deal plan
    Presidential hopeful Bernie Sanders unveiled a climate change strategy on Thursday that would mobilize $16.3 trillion to help the U.S. generate 100% of its electricity from renewable energy by 2030 and achieve “full decarbonization” by 2050.

    The plan would “launch a decade of the Green New Deal,” a 10-year federal “mobilization” that would factor climate change into every policy action from immigration to foreign policy while promising to create 20 million jobs in the process.

    The plan outlines dozens of policies aimed aggressively moving the United States off of fossil fuels in the electricity, transportation and building sectors, restoring U.S. leadership and financial aid under the Paris Climate Agreement and pouring trillions of dollars to assist fossil fuel workers and vulnerable minority communities in the transition to a green economy.

    It bans the practice of fracking to extract natural gas and oil, the import and export of fossil fuels and sets a moratorium on nuclear power plant license renewals.

    “As President, Bernie Sanders will boldly embrace the moral imperative of climate change and mobilize the political will necessary for a wholesale transformation of our society, with massive investments in sustainable energy, energy efficiency, and a transformation of our transportation system,” his plan says.
    He unveiled his plans on his website in quite more detail than Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez did. The basics:
    • Reaching 100 percent renewable energy for electricity and transportation by no later than 2030 and complete decarbonization by at least 2050 – consistent with the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change goals – by expanding the existing federal Power Marketing Administrations to build new solar, wind, and geothermal energy sources.
    • Ending unemployment by creating 20 million jobs needed to solve the climate crisis. These jobs will be good paying, union jobs with strong benefits and safety standards in steel and auto manufacturing, construction, energy efficiency retrofitting, coding and server farms, and renewable power plants. We will also create millions of jobs in sustainable agriculture, engineering, a reimagined and expanded Civilian Conservation Corp, and preserving our public lands.
    • Directly invest an historic $16.3 trillion public investment toward these efforts, in line with the mobilization of resources made during the New Deal and WWII, but with an explicit choice to include black, indigenous and other minority communities who were systematically excluded in the past.
    • A just transition for workers. This plan will prioritize the fossil fuel workers who have powered our economy for more than a century and who have too often been neglected by corporations and politicians. We will provide five years of unemployment insurance, a wage guarantee, housing assistance, job training, health care, pension support, and priority job placement for any displaced worker, as well as early retirement support for those who choose it or can no longer work.
    • Declaring climate change a national emergency. We must take action to ensure a habitable planet for ourselves, for our children, and for our grandchildren. We will do whatever it takes to defeat the threat of climate change.
    • Saving American families money by weatherizing homes and lowering energy bills, building affordable and high-quality, modern public transportation, providing grants and trade-in programs for families and small businesses to purchase high-efficiency electric vehicles, and rebuilding our inefficient and crumbling infrastructure, including deploying universal, affordable high-speed internet.
    • Supporting small family farms by investing in ecologically regenerative and sustainable agriculture. This plan will transform our agricultural system to fight climate change, provide sustainable, local foods, and break the corporate stranglehold on farmers and ranchers.
    • Justice for frontline communities – especially under-resourced groups, communities of color, Native Americans, people with disabilities, children and the elderly – to recover from, and prepare for, the climate impacts, including through a $40 billion Climate Justice Resiliency Fund. And providing those frontline and fenceline communities a just transition including real jobs, resilient infrastructure, economic development.
    • Commit to reducing emissions throughout the world, including providing $200 billion to the Green Climate Fund, rejoining the Paris Agreement, and reasserting the United States’ leadership in the global fight against climate change.
    • Meeting and exceeding our fair share of global emissions reductions. The United States has for over a century spewed carbon pollution emissions into the atmosphere in order to gain economic standing in the world. Therefore, we have an outsized obligation to help less industrialized nations meet their targets while improving quality of life. We will reduce domestic emissions by at least 71 percent by 2030 and reduce emissions among less industrialized nations by 36 percent by 2030 — the total equivalent of reducing our domestic emissions by 161 percent.
    • Making massive investments in research and development. We will invest in public research to drastically reduce the cost of energy storage, electric vehicles, and make our plastic more sustainable through advanced chemistry.
    • Expanding the climate justice movement. We will do this by coming together in a truly inclusive movement that prioritizes young people, workers, indigenous peoples, communities of color, and other historically marginalized groups to take on the fossil fuel industry and other polluters to push this over the finish line and lead the globe in solving the climate crisis.
    • Investing in conservation and public lands to heal our soils, forests, and prairie lands. We will reauthorize and expand the Civilian Conservation Corps and fully fund the Land and Water Conservation Corps to provide good paying jobs building green infrastructure.
    • This plan will pay for itself over 15 years. Experts have scored the plan and its economic effects. We will pay for the massive investment we need to reverse the climate crisis by:
      • Making the fossil fuel industry pay for their pollution, through litigation, fees, and taxes, and eliminating federal fossil fuel subsidies.
      • Generating revenue from the wholesale of energy produced by the regional Power Marketing Authorities. Revenues will be collected from 2023-2035, and after 2035 electricity will be virtually free, aside from operations and maintenance costs.
      • Scaling back military spending on maintaining global oil dependence.
      • Collecting new income tax revenue from the 20 million new jobs created by the plan.
      • Reduced need for federal and state safety net spending due to the creation of millions of good-paying, unionized jobs.
      • Making the wealthy and large corporations pay their fair share.


    Such a plan puts him as the most climate-oriented candidate out there. The plan is quite detailed with a lot of numbers thrown around. Have fun with it. Such a plan is not necessarily only necessary to tackle the climate problems. Such a plan is also required if USA wants to stay competitive. My main question is though, do people care? Do people realize how destructive climate is going to be if things continue as it is? Does USA have the guts to make the leap?
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  2. #2
    Legio_Italica's Avatar Lost in Limbo
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    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    I agree with the precedent that climate change is an emergency and drastic measures are justified. I don’t think a Green New Deal will help stave off climate change, as the developing world will continue to subsidize and rely on fossil fuels for the foreseeable future, even if wealthier countries can afford to convert to 100% renewables. Even in a best case scenario, we’ve already crossed the point of no return on climate change, and investment should focus as much on adaptation as on energy conversion.


    65% of energy consumption in the world will take place in the developing world by 2035. The only realistic way to fund a multi trillion dollar program while also incentivizing developing countries to use cleaner energy will be for the US to continue to invest in natural gas and marketing it globally at a competitive price. Effectively banning the most common forms of natural gas extraction, together with all physical participation in fossil fuels markets, is counterproductive to the assumption that a green new deal will be paid for by economic growth.


    Even if Sanders wants to also cut the military to get funding, something I don’t necessarily agree with, the program will not pay for itself. Future job growth and consumption is pure speculation, the same speculation used to justify tax cuts. We all saw how that worked out. It will have to be paid for with debt, and I think that’s something proponents should be honest about. The US can’t cut the military and ban major exports while also expecting to enjoy economic growth and the super power status that allows it to finance massive debt and trillion dollar programs.

    If it actually helps solve the climate emergency, the spending is justified, but I don’t agree with key points of the proposal or its assumptions at this time.

  3. #3
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    I agree with the environmental policies, we need to be nearly or totally running off renewable energy by 2050. I’m just concerned how America is going to do this since at first glance there’s no mention of nuclear energy which in my opinion is crucial to a carbon free economy due to long term running costs and efficiency.

    and

    • Ending unemployment by creating 20 million jobs needed to solve the climate crisis. These jobs will be good paying, union jobs with strong benefits and safety standards in steel and auto manufacturing, construction, energy efficiency retrofitting, coding and server farms, and renewable power plants. We will also create millions of jobs in sustainable agriculture, engineering, a reimagined and expanded Civilian Conservation Corp, and preserving our public lands.
    You can’t end unemployment, there will always be some unemployment. I do agree with the initiative, since the secondary sector is soon going to be replaced by automation and new jobs such as these will be required in all industrialised countries.

    • Directly invest an historic $16.3 trillion public investment toward these efforts, in line with the mobilization of resources made during the New Deal and WWII, but with an explicit choice to include black, indigenous and other minority communities who were systematically excluded in the past.
    • Justice for frontline communities – especially under-resourced groups, communities of color, Native Americans, people with disabilities, children and the elderly – to recover from, and prepare for, the climate impacts, including through a $40 billion Climate Justice Resiliency Fund. And providing those frontline and fenceline communities a just transition including real jobs, resilient infrastructure, economic development.
    • Expanding the climate justice movement. We will do this by coming together in a truly inclusive movement that prioritizes young people, workers, indigenous peoples, communities of color, and other historically marginalized groups to take on the fossil fuel industry and other polluters to push this over the finish line and lead the globe in solving the climate crisis.
    Why do Sanders and Cortez feel the need to shoehorn in stupid social justice clauses into environmental campaigns. The green movement needs to ensure it DOES NOT get hijacked by SJWs. Or socialists, for example you have the red/green coalitions out there.

    • Meeting and exceeding our fair share of global emissions reductions. The United States has for over a century spewed carbon pollution emissions into the atmosphere in order to gain economic standing in the world. Therefore, we have an outsized obligation to help less industrialized nations meet their targets while improving quality of life. We will reduce domestic emissions by at least 71 percent by 2030 and reduce emissions among less industrialized nations by 36 percent by 2030 — the total equivalent of reducing our domestic emissions by 161 percent.
    Realistically the likes of Pakistan, The Congo, Columbia etc will not agree to reduce emissions by as much as industrialised economies without coercive force. That said, it’s a good thing Sander’s plan intends to get other countries to reduce emissions, but the big thing is persuading - or if that doesn’t work coercing - countries in Europe such as Germany and the UK (which at present are onboard), countries in Asia like Russia, and especially China and India which are the two of the biggest emitters to dramatically reduce emissions, which isn’t happening at the moment.

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  4. #4
    Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    This commie wants to hand Trump the election on a silver platter.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    I agree with the environmental policies, we need to be nearly or totally running off renewable energy by 2050. I’m just concerned how America is going to do this since at first glance there’s no mention of nuclear energy which in my opinion is crucial to a carbon free economy due to long term running costs and efficiency.

    and

    You can’t end unemployment, there will always be some unemployment. I do agree with the initiative, since the secondary sector is soon going to be replaced by automation and new jobs such as these will be required in all industrialised countries.
    I am also very annoyed with the constant blind eye that the nuclear industry gets. That industry has issues, sure, but it doesn't deserve to be completely ignored. Also, I believe he is talking about structural unemployment.


    As for Bernie's plan.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Reaching 100 percent renewable energy for electricity and transportation by no later than 2030 and complete decarbonization by 2050 at latest

    100% renewable energy is a pipe dream. I doubt that even 75% is feasible by 2050.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Ending unemployment by creating 20 million jobs

    2. High skilled, high paying jobs typically don't need unionization. Where we actually need unionization is in low-skill, low-wage industries. The bulk of the 20 million jobs created by the energy industry are probably going to require a college or technical degree. Current demographics who are under threat of unemployment or being "replaced" by the changes in the global economy are not prepared or in the mindset of getting ready for a major career shift. It'll take an enormous effort to mobilize these workers.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Directly invest an historic $16.3 trillion public investment

    3. Investing massive amounts of money into infrastructure and energy production is a good idea. About time honestly.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    A just transition for workers.

    4. No. I'm against wage guarantees, I'm all for helping them transition, but a free checkbook is pissing into the wind. A massive effort to create a retraining pipeline that achieves Scandinavian (or something resembling that) results is what we want. Not a blank paper for negotiating with displaced workers.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Declaring climate change a national emergency.

    5. Yes. By tackling climate change we can put ourselves into an advantageous position for the global economy.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Saving American families money

    6. Homes and old infrastructure are the barriers to home efficiency. That's not something government can help with in a significant way. That's the homeowner's responsibility, the technology is already out there. There is no point in subsidizing electric vehicles. In order for us to meaningfully move the technology forward, mandate harsher CAFE standards (like we already are), and allow the market to develop the vehicles. Subsidizing vehicles adds more distortions to a, quite frankly, underwhelming market. Electric vehicles, with the exception of a couple cars like Tesla, are terrible. We can connect every family to the Internet by changing the current regulatory structure of ground fiber, and subsidizing cities to encourage them to build it. Municipal Fiber>Cable Companies.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Supporting small family farms by investing in ecologically regenerative and sustainable agriculture.

    7. There is no point in supporting small family farms. I don't mind small commercial operations being viable, but they already are. For example, Wagyu beef ranchers in the Pacific North West that focus on specialty, expensive cuts of beef. The majority of the food supply is heavily commercialized because it's simply more efficient. I don't mind regulations to improve quality or prevent contractor abuse, but I'm not interested in subsidizing small farmers. Get them doing something else, they're struggling to make ends meet anyway.

    I'd actually want to know Conon's take on this, he mentioned WSU's agriculture program, I was pleasantly surprised when he mentioned it.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Justice for frontline communities

    8. Minorities, especially African Americans, need serious investment into their communities to reduce violence, reduce poverty, and get them educated.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Commit to reducing emissions throughout the world

    9.Yes please. This can be an extension of future, positive American foreign policy. The new Marshall Plan.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Meeting and exceeding our fair share of global emissions reductions.

    10. Yeah, I don't think that's possible. It's fine to have an unrealistic goal, but I think the method should focus on incremental steps. The recent reductions in CO2 around the world have been achieved largely due to a massive switch to gas power, which is much cleaner than coal, but still a fossil fuel. We should continue that policy while working on expanding the base of renewable energy.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Making massive investments in research and development.

    11. Yep, common sense really.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Expanding the climate justice movement.

    12. Bizarre.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Investing in conservation and public lands to heal our soils, forests, and prairie lands.

    13. Yeah, that's actually really important and something people don't talk about. But the current masses of "untouched land" currently forms the bulk of our raw resources.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    This plan will pay for itself over 15 years.

    14. You'll never get carbon taxes passed, so no. This bill will not pay for itself over 15 years, more like 50. The other stuff sound feasible, but difficult to pull through.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    This idea that if USA goes ahead with such a plan it won't mean anything as others won't go with it is a quite short-sighted position. When USA goes with it other countries will definitely follow. Otherwise, they know that they will fall behind in everything. Such an upheaval will transform USA. Others will left with the choice of following or falling behind. The sheer economic gains will be convincing enough.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Not saying it won't mean anything. Imo, implementing this plan and falling far short of expectations would be still better than wasting the money on a giant tax cut or whatever.

  8. #8
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    What economic gains? I thought the whole point was tempering our want for economic growth in order to keep the damn planet habitable.
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  9. #9

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Government spending expands the economy via the multiplier effect. Green New Deal makes the economy more efficient. Eliminating fossil fuels eliminates the economic costs of pollution for example. To make an extreme example, spending trillions to save the environment means we dont need to spend trillions on underground shelters.

    The efforts spent on making the energy chain green will create thousands of new jobs which creates economic growth. The same goes for virtually every other industry. Other stuff in Sanders GND like retraining, theoretically makes the labor force more efficient because it reallocates labor to more productive sectors, which means there are more economic gains, etc.

    Where it loses me, is where he talks about this deal paying off. The government will never recover trillions in spending directly. Thats just a fantasy. However, in the same way that the interstate highway system made zero dollars for the treasury, but billions through increased economic activity, the GND will set up US to be a word leading economy for the rest of the 21st century.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Ehhh....more a general election thing.
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  11. #11
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    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Look sensible at first blush as an approach to the future. Sensible or not, can you imagine the US Congress passing these measures without monkeying with them? Many people blast Trump (me included) but he's only there because the system in Washington is so deeply broken.

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  12. #12

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    The plan is basically about spending a lot of money on a number of industries that are better for the environment. For example:
    We will spend $1.52 trillion on renewable energy and $852 billion to build energy storage capacity.
    We will spend $526 billion on a modern, high-volt, underground, renewable, direct current, smart, electric transmission and distribution grid will ensure our transition to 100 percent sustainable energy is safe and smooth.
    In order to ensure that no one is ever stranded without the ability to charge their vehicle, we will spend $85.6 billion building a national electric vehicle charging infrastructure network similar to the gas stations and rest stops we have today.
    That means we must spend $216 billion to replace all diesel tractor trailer trucks with fast-charging and long-range electric trucks.
    Additionally, in order to ensure an affordable and complete transition away from fossil fuels in the transportation sector, we will also spend $100 billion to decrease the cost of a new electric vehicle to at most $18,000.
    We will spend $900 million to permanently fund the LWCF to safeguard natural areas, water resources, and our cultural heritage, and to provide recreation opportunities to all Americans.
    We will spend $1.3 trillion to ensure that workers in the fossil fuel and other carbon intensive industries receive strong benefits, a living wage, training, and job placement.
    We will spend $100 billion on fossil fuel well and mine cleanup.
    We will spend $24.85 billion to bolster existing programs like the Conservation Stewardship program, the Agricultural Conservation Easement program, and the Regional Conservation Partnership program that help farmers make conservation improvements on their farm.
    We will spend $500 million to help farmers that are enrolled in the Conservation Reserve Program (CRP) transition their land to new organic farmers.
    The Farmer Opportunity Training and Outreach program helps coordinate USDA training and education for beginning, veteran, and socially disadvantaged farmers. The program has been historically underfunded, so we will spend $1 billion to expand it to ensure those who have been chronically underserved by the USDA have access to the resources they need to thrive.
    These are all the times in the plan that they mention government spending money under Bernie. The major spending measures are all spending geared towards giving steroids to transportation and energy industry. These measures will create a lot of jobs and help transform those industries to new technologies.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    These are all the times in the plan that they mention government spending money under Bernie. The major spending measures are all spending geared towards giving steroids to transportation and energy industry. These measures will create a lot of jobs and help transform those industries to new technologies.
    The only way it could work is if the Democrats get a super majority in the Senate along with Bernie winning. And even then expect the Republicans to do anything they can to sabotage it out of misplaced fear/ignorance/sheer evil spite.

  14. #14
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    The Democrats need policies like this to be supported by centrists as well as Socialists, in order to reach out to the Republicans in bipartisan fashion. Climate change is bipartisan in the UK it can be the same in America.

    Dissociating green energy from socialism and progressivism would be a good start to make people less fearful or sceptical.
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    The Democrats need policies like this to be supported by centrists as well as Socialists, in order to reach out to the Republicans in bipartisan fashion. Climate change is bipartisan in the UK it can be the same in America.

    Dissociating green energy from socialism and progressivism would be a good start to make people less fearful or sceptical.
    What part of it is associated with socialism and progressiveness?
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  16. #16

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    I've never understood climate change denial. How do you get to the point where you say, "Tens of thousands of eminent, reputable scientists with their peer reviewed research are all wrong and the bloke on YouTube wearing the tin foil hat is obviously right"?

  17. #17

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    I've never understood climate change denial. How do you get to the point where you say, "Tens of thousands of eminent, reputable scientists with their peer reviewed research are all wrong and the bloke on YouTube wearing the tin foil hat is obviously right"?
    Part of the problem is a lack of trust in university research caused by the severe over representation of progressivism/liberalism within faculties. Another part of the problem is that people perceive climate change to have been drastically oversold.

  18. #18
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    What part of it is associated with socialism and progressiveness?
    Most of the parts that aren’t directly related to climate change, such as talk about minority communities and labour unions.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Part of the problem is a lack of trust in university research caused by the severe over representation of progressivism/liberalism within faculties. Another part of the problem is that people perceive climate change to have been drastically oversold.
    So the problem is the messenger, and not the message? Is the solution to chuck a few Neo-Nazis into some of the top Uni's so the message gets across?

    In other words, the problem is as I've always suspected. Idiocy.

  20. #20
    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Bernie's Green New Deal

    Actually it’s a lack of trust in academic institutions to be impartial.
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