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Thread: Forming an alliance option not always available

  1. #1

    Default Forming an alliance option not always available

    I always thought you cannot offer an alliance to a faction which is an enemy to one of your ally. But i noticed it's not always that way, and you can do it and they will ceasefire. For some factions i have an alliance option available even tho they are at war with my allies but for others i don't have that option.

    Hungary and Denmark were my allies, they declared war on each other and i lost alliance with Denmark but i can offer it to them again which will bring truce between Denmark and Hungary. I can also make an alliance with Egypt that is in war with half my allies and Moors. I cannot make an alliance with England and Genoa, they are at war with only one of my ally. Looks like some random, bugged thing?

    Also i noticed sometimes factions declare war but if i check with toggle_fow i don't see them fighting anywhere. Sometimes they don't even border like Denmark and Hungary. I think there was some bug with accidental port blocking but it didn't happen in this case. Hungary was busy fighting south with Venice, Byzantium and Turks, Denmark fighting Poland and HRE and they suddenly declared war on each other and signed truce with they previous enemies.
    Anyone knows why it happens?

  2. #2

    Default Re: Forming an alliance option not always available

    dont think it's random or bugged it's just you and me aswell not knowing the systems enough

    might be a cap on how many times you can do that, maybe it's based on reputation who knows
    once reason you might not be able to make an alliance with a faction is because you destroyed a faction they were allied to, so if you're HRE and denmark is allied with norway means that after you destroy denmark you will never be able to ally with norway (unless you make them vassals)

    crusader armies sometimes declare war with byzantines while passing through their terrirories despite not attacking anything, something similar might be happening in your case with different factions

  3. #3

    Default Re: Forming an alliance option not always available

    If it was some hidden mechanic (which indeed are many in this game) wouldn't be there any info about this posted by players? I didn't find any, just few people asking the same question.

    It's not a cap coz i didn't do it yet to any faction, all my alliances are from the beginning. It's not a rep or relations aswell from what i can see in my campaign.

    Destroying a faction could make some sense but there isn't anything like not being able to ally with someone in this game at least in a normal way, if they don't have war with any of your allies then you always have alliance option available. I mean if i would now break all my alliances with everyone, i'd be able to make an alliance with everyone again, including factions i cannot ally now (England, Genoa). The only question is why the game allows me to ally with Egipt, Moors, Denmark and in the same time i cannot ally with England and Genoa until i break my alliance with someone they are fighting. Like it doesn't make any sense, and no one yet explained it by looking in game files or something :/

  4. #4

    Default Re: Forming an alliance option not always available

    the effect of reputation is that it makes it harder to ally, the faction you want to ally with will want more from you if your reputation is bad, it does not eliminate the option to ally though or atleast it shouldnt afaik

    for relations idk, it's a long shot but there might be some limitations based on faction standings, improve your relations with the faction you want to ally and see if alliance becomes available

    factions do not all start the campaign with the same relations between each other

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Code:
    ; >>>> start of diplomacy section <<<<
    
    
    faction_standings    venice,            0.40    jerusalem
    faction_standings    venice,            0.30    papal_states, sicily
    faction_standings    venice,            0.20    hungary
    faction_standings    venice,            -0.20    milan
    faction_standings    venice,            -0.30    hre
    faction_standings    venice,            -0.40    egypt
    faction_standings    venice,            -0.50    byzantium
    faction_standings    venice,            -1.00    slave
    faction_standings    sicily,            0.40    jerusalem, hre
    faction_standings    sicily,            0.30    milan, venice
    faction_standings    sicily,            0.20    papal_states
    faction_standings    sicily,            -0.20    aragon
    faction_standings    sicily,            -0.40    byzantium, egypt, moors
    faction_standings    sicily,            -1.00    slave
    faction_standings    milan,            0.40    jerusalem
    faction_standings    milan,            0.30    sicily
    faction_standings    milan,            0.20    papal_states, aragon
    faction_standings    milan,            -0.20    venice, france
    faction_standings    milan,            -0.30    hre
    faction_standings    milan,            -0.40    moors
    faction_standings    milan,            -1.00    slave
    faction_standings    papal_states,        0.40    jerusalem
    faction_standings    papal_states,        0.30    venice
    faction_standings    papal_states,        0.20    hungary, aragon, norway, england, teutonic_order, denmark, milan, sicily, poland
    faction_standings    papal_states,        -0.20    byzantium, hre
    faction_standings    papal_states,        -0.60    slave
    faction_standings    papal_states,        -0.80    moors, turks
    faction_standings    papal_states,        -0.90    egypt
    faction_standings    denmark,        0.60    teutonic_order
    faction_standings    denmark,        0.40    norway
    faction_standings    denmark,        0.20    papal_states, russia
    faction_standings    denmark,        -0.20    lithuania, scotland, poland, england
    faction_standings    denmark,        -0.40    hre
    faction_standings    denmark,        -1.00    slave
    faction_standings    egypt,            0.40    turks, moors, kwarezm
    faction_standings    egypt,            -0.40    venice, byzantium, sicily
    faction_standings    egypt,            -0.90    papal_states, jerusalem
    faction_standings    egypt,            -1.00    mongols, slave, timurids
    faction_standings    scotland,        0.80    france
    faction_standings    scotland,        -0.20    norway, denmark
    faction_standings    scotland,        -0.70    england
    faction_standings    scotland,        -1.00    slave
    faction_standings    cumans,            0.60    lithuania
    faction_standings    cumans,            -0.40    kwarezm, turks, russia
    faction_standings    cumans,            -0.60    kievan_rus
    faction_standings    cumans,            -0.80    mongols
    faction_standings    cumans,            -1.00    slave
    faction_standings    mongols,        -0.80    hungary, poland, cumans
    faction_standings    mongols,        -1.00    egypt, timurids, slave, kwarezm, byzantium, russia, kievan_rus, turks
    faction_standings    turks,            0.40    egypt, moors, kwarezm
    faction_standings    turks,            -0.20    kievan_rus, teutonic_order
    faction_standings    turks,            -0.40    cumans
    faction_standings    turks,            -0.80    byzantium, papal_states
    faction_standings    turks,            -0.90    jerusalem
    faction_standings    turks,            -1.00    slave, mongols, timurids
    faction_standings    france,            0.80    scotland
    faction_standings    france,            -0.20    spain, milan, aragon
    faction_standings    france,            -0.40    hre
    faction_standings    france,            -0.80    england
    faction_standings    france,            -1.00    slave
    faction_standings    hre,            0.80    teutonic_order
    faction_standings    hre,            0.40    sicily
    faction_standings    hre,            0.20    hungary
    faction_standings    hre,            -0.20    norway, papal_states
    faction_standings    hre,            -0.30    venice, milan
    faction_standings    hre,            -0.40    denmark, poland, france
    faction_standings    hre,            -1.00    slave
    faction_standings    england,        0.20    spain, papal_states
    faction_standings    england,        -0.20    norway, denmark
    faction_standings    england,        -0.70    scotland
    faction_standings    england,        -0.80    france
    faction_standings    england,        -1.00    slave
    faction_standings    portugal,        0.80    aragon
    faction_standings    portugal,        0.60    spain
    faction_standings    portugal,        -0.70    moors
    faction_standings    portugal,        -1.00    slave
    faction_standings    poland,            0.60    hungary
    faction_standings    poland,            0.20    teutonic_order, papal_states
    faction_standings    poland,            -0.20    kievan_rus, byzantium, denmark, lithuania
    faction_standings    poland,            -0.40    russia, hre
    faction_standings    poland,            -0.80    mongols
    faction_standings    poland,            -1.00    slave
    faction_standings    byzantium,        0.40    russia, kievan_rus
    faction_standings    byzantium,        -0.20    papal_states, poland, hungary, timurids
    faction_standings    byzantium,        -0.40    sicily, egypt
    faction_standings    byzantium,        -0.50    venice
    faction_standings    byzantium,        -0.80    turks
    faction_standings    byzantium,        -1.00    slave, mongols
    faction_standings    moors,            0.40    egypt, turks
    faction_standings    moors,            -0.40    milan, sicily
    faction_standings    moors,            -0.70    portugal
    faction_standings    moors,            -0.80    aragon, papal_states
    faction_standings    moors,            -0.90    spain
    faction_standings    moors,            -1.00    slave
    faction_standings    russia,            0.40    byzantium
    faction_standings    russia,            0.20    denmark, lithuania, kievan_rus
    faction_standings    russia,            -0.20    norway, hungary
    faction_standings    russia,            -0.40    cumans, poland, teutonic_order
    faction_standings    russia,            -1.00    slave, mongols
    faction_standings    spain,            0.60    portugal
    faction_standings    spain,            0.50    aragon
    faction_standings    spain,            0.20    england
    faction_standings    spain,            -0.20    france
    faction_standings    spain,            -0.90    moors
    faction_standings    spain,            -1.00    slave
    faction_standings    hungary,        0.60    poland
    faction_standings    hungary,        0.20    hre, teutonic_order, lithuania, papal_states, venice
    faction_standings    hungary,        -0.20    kievan_rus, russia, byzantium
    faction_standings    hungary,        -0.80    mongols
    faction_standings    hungary,        -1.00    slave
    faction_standings    aragon,            0.80    portugal
    faction_standings    aragon,            0.50    spain
    faction_standings    aragon,            0.20    papal_states, milan
    faction_standings    aragon,            -0.20    sicily, france
    faction_standings    aragon,            -0.80    moors
    faction_standings    aragon,            -1.00    slave
    faction_standings    lithuania,        0.60    cumans
    faction_standings    lithuania,        0.20    hungary, kievan_rus, russia
    faction_standings    lithuania,        -0.20    denmark, poland
    faction_standings    lithuania,        -0.80    teutonic_order
    faction_standings    lithuania,        -1.00    slave
    faction_standings    kievan_rus,        0.40    byzantium
    faction_standings    kievan_rus,        0.20    lithuania, russia
    faction_standings    kievan_rus,        -0.20    teutonic_order, turks, poland, hungary
    faction_standings    kievan_rus,        -0.60    cumans
    faction_standings    kievan_rus,        -1.00    slave, mongols
    faction_standings    teutonic_order,        0.80    hre
    faction_standings    teutonic_order,        0.60    denmark
    faction_standings    teutonic_order,        0.20    papal_states, hungary, poland
    faction_standings    teutonic_order,        -0.20    turks, kievan_rus
    faction_standings    teutonic_order,        -0.40    russia
    faction_standings    teutonic_order,        -0.80    lithuania
    faction_standings    teutonic_order,        -1.00    slave
    faction_standings    timurids,        -0.20    byzantium
    faction_standings    timurids,        -1.00    kwarezm, slave, egypt, mongols, turks
    faction_standings    norway,            0.40    denmark
    faction_standings    norway,            0.20    papal_states
    faction_standings    norway,            -0.20    russia, england, hre, scotland
    faction_standings    norway,            -1.00    slave
    faction_standings    jerusalem,        0.40    milan, papal_states, venice, sicily
    faction_standings    jerusalem,        -0.90    egypt, turks
    faction_standings    kwarezm,        0.40    egypt, turks
    faction_standings    kwarezm,        -0.40    cumans
    faction_standings    kwarezm,        -1.00    mongols, slave, timurids
    faction_standings    slave,            -0.60    papal_states
    faction_standings    slave,            -1.00    hungary, spain, aragon, moors, lithuania, russia, kwarezm, norway, byzantium, teutonic_order, kievan_rus, timurids, egypt, denmark, cumans, scotland, sicily, poland, milan, england, hre, venice, portugal, turks, mongols, france
    
    
    faction_relationships     venice, at_war_with     slave
    faction_relationships     sicily, at_war_with     slave
    faction_relationships     milan, at_war_with     slave
    faction_relationships     papal_states, at_war_with     slave
    faction_relationships     denmark, at_war_with     slave
    faction_relationships     egypt, at_war_with     slave, timurids
    faction_relationships     scotland, at_war_with     slave
    faction_relationships     cumans, at_war_with     slave, mongols
    faction_relationships     mongols, at_war_with     kievan_rus, kwarezm, timurids, turks, poland, slave, cumans, russia, hungary, byzantium
    faction_relationships     turks, at_war_with     mongols, slave, timurids
    faction_relationships     france, at_war_with     slave
    faction_relationships     hre, at_war_with     slave
    faction_relationships     england, at_war_with     slave
    faction_relationships     portugal, at_war_with     slave
    faction_relationships     poland, at_war_with     slave, mongols
    faction_relationships     byzantium, at_war_with     slave, mongols
    faction_relationships     moors, at_war_with     slave
    faction_relationships     russia, at_war_with     slave, mongols
    faction_relationships     spain, at_war_with     slave
    faction_relationships     hungary, at_war_with     slave, mongols
    faction_relationships     aragon, at_war_with     slave
    faction_relationships     lithuania, at_war_with     slave
    faction_relationships     kievan_rus, at_war_with     slave, mongols
    faction_relationships     teutonic_order, at_war_with     slave
    faction_relationships     timurids, at_war_with     kwarezm, turks, slave, egypt, mongols
    faction_relationships     norway, at_war_with     slave
    faction_relationships     jerusalem, at_war_with     slave
    faction_relationships     kwarezm, at_war_with     mongols, slave, timurids
    faction_relationships     slave, at_war_with     hungary, spain, aragon, byzantium, lithuania, russia, moors, jerusalem, norway, venice, kwarezm, teutonic_order, kievan_rus, timurids, denmark, papal_states, scotland, egypt, sicily, poland, milan, hre, france, portugal, england, mongols, cumans, turks
    
    
    ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;

  5. #5

    Default Re: Forming an alliance option not always available

    Yeah i know reputation = chance of AI accepting. But i'm talking about the fact that there is no alliance option in diplomacy screen at all for SOME factions that are in war with my allies but for SOME other factions i still have that option, even tho they are at war with my allies aswell. I maxed relations but it didn't make the alliance option appear. For a while i thought it might have something to do with the pope and catholic/islamic factions but i tested and it doesn't matter. If i cancel all my alliances then the option appears for those factions who didn't have it.

  6. #6

  7. #7

    Default Re: Forming an alliance option not always available

    This occurs when:

    A) You have killed a faction allied to the one you are in diplomacy with (or the faction ended up dying before you could make peace)
    B) You have personally declared war a faction allied to the one you are in diplomacy with (different if you start out at war or if the faction declares war on you). I've had this happen mostly in more overhaul mods like TATW.
    C) You made an alliance with a faction they are at war with after they have declared war (meaning you chose a side).

  8. #8

    Default Re: Forming an alliance option not always available

    Hmm, i started a fresh campaign to test that and it looks like it doesn't work this way either.

    - I didn't kill any faction/no faction died.
    - I didn't declare war to anyone.
    - I made an alliance with Crusaders (they had no enemies yet), after few turns they declared war on Egypt, i did cancel our alliance and allied with Egypt and i can still ally with Crusaders.
    - I had no alliance with Byzantine/Turks. Byzantine declared war on Turks, i allied with Byzantine and still can ally with Turks.

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