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Thread: Empire 2 Total War, suggestions and ideas

  1. #1

    Default Empire 2 Total War, suggestions and ideas

    I was thinking of this: full musket game, the return to 18th century where you recruit 200 peasants and train them for one turn to be militia, 2 turns to be conscripts, 3 turns to be standard line infantry. Then from various line infantry regiments - if you have managed to raise 10 of them - you have an option to form a single grenadier regiment with the best, tallest and strongest men from your line regiments. It requires additional 4 turns to form due to advanced training in bayonet warfare, firing drills and discipline.

    2nd thing is that you cannot arm peasants without cloth industry making 200 uniforms and metalwork industry making 200 muskets. Also for cavalry unit you have to breed horses and choose the type of cavalry to produce combinations of pistols-swords, pistols-sabers, lances-swords, carbines-swords... etc. For artillery you have to choose what type of cannon/howitzer/mortar to produce and train your crew for it. Cloth industry makes uniforms and metalworking industry makes artillery.

    If you want additional experience for troops then your general has to spend some number of turns in the military school. You can go to war without additional chevrons that general gives to your army in the peace time and earn them via combat.

    Elite guard regiments of the king are the hardest to produce but once you set them ready for combat their strength on the battlefield should tip the balance into your side. The drawback is that the number of elite regiments is limited and requires more than 8 turns to produce - expensive cloth for uniforms, the best muskets, extensive drill, the best officers...

    There should be also a tree for generals where they choose, after some prolonged accumulation of experience or turns spent in the academy in the peacetime, the specialization - logistics, engineer, artillery, cavalry or infantry. With logistics he is able to keep his troops always well supplied with food and ammo, with engineer he can dig field defenses faster and on the first turn, artillery, cavalry and infantry specializations even better trained soldiers and officers - faster gallop for cavalry, faster reload for infantry, bigger range for arty etc.

    There should be complete family tree with advanced diplomacy reflecting the mess of interests that Europe was in the 18th century. ''My distant relative, or even I myself, is a successor to your throne because your king did not produce any heirs, but the rest of Europe is gonna attack me because I might unite our two kingdoms and ruin the delicate balance of powers on the continent''. That is the explanation, in a nutshell, of various wars of succession in the 18th century.

    But what do you think, what should be implemented in the Empire 2, if it ever comes to fruition?

  2. #2
    Dismounted Feudal Knight's Avatar my horse for a unicode
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    Default Re: Empire 2 Total War, suggestions and ideas

    The idea of additional training being what upgrades units is something interesting to me. Pooping out permanent elite units has always been a bit odd to me. I would not tie this to turns alone; rather, infrastructure for training and structure for equipping. The requirements on this appear simplistic, but they are debatable anyways, and the core concept is another I've always been interested in - instead of just getting permanent static units, getting an almost 'design it yourself' system where you select what they are equipped with based on what you have developed. Experience for troops should only go so far with training in the first place, and general competence should have no effect on the gain later on, though perhaps a slight bonus for a particularly good general could be fun.

    To tweak things up, I'm not sure I'd like to see a single specialization, rather, two with the ability to superficially invest in more. A moderately decent general can only go so far, anyways. A truly good one would be able to make headway in all fields, as it should be. But, for this to be relatively fair, we would need to see a true difficulty advancement so a general's talent actually means something. For the tweaks you mention, hm... I'd use those variables sparingly. You seem to be going for authenticity, and that's great, but those bonuses can only be marginal and suited to the circumstances that would allow them to pass, or you'd be subverting the goal, assuming that's what it is.

    A more comprehensive family system, including other character types on the map tying into it and every individual having place and standing in the structure, would be extremely fun to me.

    Much of this is on par with concepts I've enjoyed considering for years, but tempered with the pragmatism that if they even happen, it will not be for a long time. I'm not really a fan of the Empire context, but a true evolution in design like this could push through my weariness of the premise, as Shogun 1 managed to do.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Empire 2 Total War, suggestions and ideas

    Customization of uniforms would be great. For instance every big city can produce certain number of units - big urban areas mostly infantry, peasant farms and landowner mansions cavalry, industrial hubs artillery, coastal cities produce marines. And what's more each unit is customizable! Each has its own name, emblem, flag, uniform, color of the uniform... You cannot spawn endless number of boring generic units but each one of your regiments is valuable and unique.

    One of the mods for Napoleon Total War made a huge step towards this goal and the mod is l'Aigle's and Steph's ''Masters of Europe''. There each region can produce limited number of units and each unit has its own territorial designation. So in battle I enjoy watching for instance Prussian line regiment from Silesia marching to attack French line regiment from Provence. Small things like that completely change the immersion and the whole feeling of the game. Still there are limitations in Empire and Napoleon where it is impossible to implement ideas mentioned above.

    But I would like that each small city has its own regiment! So the farms, industry hubs, vineyards, ports... can produce at least one regiment of their own. This concept is something I was thinking about for some time and gave it a name - ''European Regiments''. Or just short ''Regiment''.

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    Default Re: Empire 2 Total War, suggestions and ideas

    I'm enjoying reading the ideas on this thread. I like the idea of each regiment being valuable, unique and connected to the city or area where it was recruited.

    This might sound odd, but I wonder if elite units should be recruitable from barracks. I'm not saying that Guards and other elite units didn't exist, of course they did. I'm suggesting that elite regiments benefit from military traditions gained through military campaigns as well as training - in other words, elite units could be formed by experience, not simply recruited.

    Maybe ordinary regiments could gradually become elite regiments through something simiar to the heroic victory mechanic in some older games, where a captain commanding an army could become a general through heroic leadership, or the military traditions in Rome II where a veteran army acquires bonuses? I can imagine this being implemented in either of two ways:

    1. If elite regiments recruit the best soldiers from ordinary regiments (I could be wrong and I imagine they would have trained raw recruits at times), then maybe, as an extension of the 'merge units' option, the player could merge two (or more) very experienced regiments to form an elite regiment?

    2. Maybe an experienced regiment which is especially successful on the battlefield (for example by not breaking under severe pressure and by killing unusually large numbers of enemies) could sometimes qualify as an elite unit (similar to gaining experience chevrons), so that elite units are formed through experience rather than simply recruited?

  5. #5

    Default Re: Empire 2 Total War, suggestions and ideas

    What do you say about this concept when it comes to elite units: as I mentioned before 10 line regiments can give enough quality men for 1 grenadier regiment. BUT to form one elite regiment you have to pick the best men from at least 3 or 4 or even more grenadier regiments. So the experience and quality can be even more upgraded via better selection of soldiers.

    Your concept of units being ''upgraded'' to elite status via heroic feats in combat is something that Soviets did in the WW2 by giving the additional ''Guards'' or ''Shock'' names to usual generic armies. So if you had played Call of Duty you will remember that one of the armies that attacked Berlin was named 3rd Shock army.

    I am not an expert but I believe that things like that did not happen in the 18th century. Ordinary line regiment might have a special name given by the king because of its bravery but they will never be designated as elite in the sense of king's guard units.

    One of the reasons for that is that in grenadier regiments were picked the tallest and strongest guys. King wanted the strongest soldiers around him to present them in parades. Remember the disdain nobility in army had towards artillery because their uniforms were not as flashy as infantry or cavalry uniforms. To them the appearance also played big role in army. Not to mention almost non existent system of picking officers for higher command based on merit.

    So in 18th century regiment you often had situation where a young noble bought a rank of colonel for 40.000. livres, and his subordinates are 60 year old officers who are not of noble birth and who have 40 years of experience in the army, while the noble has limited experience and is still ''green''.

    All that must be reflected in the concept of ''Regiments'' because king has to pick his elite soldiers and he cannot give elite status to the line regiment, despite the before unseen bravery and sacrifice, because in the regiment are together tall, handsome, wealthy and fair guys along with the short, ugly, toothless, without one eye, poorest and even former criminals.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Empire 2 Total War, suggestions and ideas

    I would like to see improvements in three areas of game:

    1) Global map + state management

    I would love to see global map with theatres for local goverments. I would love to see ability to create colonies (Africa, South Asia/America) and that AI will try to fight for them with me. Basically problem is initial fight vs indegious native population, it has sense in some areas like India but then there are large areas where such resistance was pretty weak...Africa? And I would prefer if other powers/pirates whatever actively fight for those. Something like Boer Wars for example. Anglo/French wars in North America etc...

    Essentialy I love the trade theatres in Empire and would like to mitigate it. Plus I would like to see heavy emphasis on naval combat. Up to now Empire is only TW where naval actions feel like High See Action. All other games the water is basically coastal, shallow water. Napoleon,R2/Attila - just around Europe, Shogun 2 - just around Japan. Only in Empire player was able to conduct naval action far far away.

    This is tied with colonial system and state. Basically I would love to see bigger difference colony vs main state where having big army in New World/India is far more difficult to having army in main Europe. This would force player to rely more on diplomacy in colonies and making allies. With natives etc.

    2) Army management

    This is similar to what I wrote in different threat. I would love to see bigger armies. 40 units? But split into sub sections like front guard, rear guard, center, flanks, scouting, baggage/reserves. Basically each one with position for general/leader (is character good cavalry leader? good, put him in flanks or scouting, is he great staff manager? Letīs put him in reserve,center...and so on..so the character stats might boost army performance etc.) At the same time each army sub-section would be able to consist from different number of units, it is up to player if he wants some unit in each section or just concentrate on some. This would have consequences in actual battles. Scouts will be able to deploy forward,occupy certain areas like crossroads, hills, bridges...Rear guard and reserves will arrive later and flanks will arrive at the sides. I will return to this later with battle maps.

    About actual units, elite units. We have the rank system and what I would like to add are some abilities. It is mostly about small stats increasement but i would like the units to get things like new formations, ability to dig in, upon getting rank 10 ability to be equivalent of RoR Wh units. Those legendary ones. Basically from regular unit, legendary one will be forever. So the idea about getting tradition on unit level,similar to R2 legion tradition is nice one. Some triggered (fighting in desert 10 times?) some pickable with a few choices?

    And of course there should be elite units however I would like the idea that I have to produce some regular units for each elite to be produce. Simulating that elite guys cannot be created from thin air. Basically imagine ToB recruitment system where after 10 regular units, one elite will be unlocked to be recruited. Plus if we are talking about colonialism. I would love to see some kind of locality system where sending units to fight across whole world will increase their upkeep/refill rate. So player will have to rely more upon local units.

    3) Actual battles + battle maps

    I see three major things here for me

    a) Map itself. Is usallly very small and without many features. Actually it is not small but because our fights usually result into blob fighting, the 90% of map is useless. What I would imagine is way more complicated map. Roads that boost movement speed around 200-300% versus grass/trees. Forest would be very very very slow pace of movement, you cna start start charge from tree line but moving army through will take a lot time. Marshes, rivers, bridges, more buildings, more valleys and so. If we combine this with more army sub-sections which are not arriving at the same time and place. Imagine basically any Napoleonic battles where armies are not in one blob but fought about various terrrain parts. During deployment only scouting force would be able to capture some important terrain features or skirmish for them, then slowly parts of army will arrive. It would be important to occupy for example crossroads because army not moving into single colum will be way faster upon roads than in terrain. Then during normal deployment the zones will be influences by what "area" was secured by scouts or not denied by enemy. Then normal battle will occur where armies will not fight about singular place but on multiple smaller fronts.

    b) interaction with enviroment. In Empire/Napoleon infantry was able to occupy buildings and I would love to see way more of it. Buildable deployables like trenches, cannon fortification, ability to construct pontons,bridges with engineers or demolish bridges. Ability to set forest afire or dynamic weather. In rain marshes will be basically dead end for cavalry/infantry/artillery to pass through.

    c) blob fighting style. Basically all TWs degenerate into such state. And honestly I have no idea how to prevent it but I would like to have army on greater surface.
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  7. #7

    Default Re: Empire 2 Total War, suggestions and ideas

    Two things - field battles and sieges:

    1 - I recommend something revolutionary, something that departs from the Total War concept of the last 20 years! The huge map of Europe where there is no separate loading of battle maps but when you zoom in you see units in that big map moving in real time! Every river, hill, valley, village and town are mapped to the detail.

    In all Total War games to date we had only 2 parts of military skill - strategic level on the strategic map and tactical level on battle maps. But we did not have proper operational level, i.e. grand strategy as it is called in the west.

    The art of operational skill, or grand strategy, is placed between strategy and tactics. Operational skill is the art of concentrating and maneuvering your army, i.e. its core elements (Napoleon's corps for instance), in order to have the advantage over enemy before the potential battle or potential encirclement or the need to outmaneuver the enemy and force him to retreat from certain strong position. To put yourself into position to have advantage while the enemy is at a disadvantage - numerical, technical, topographical, logistical (causing the enemy army to dissipate because of lack of money for mercenaries because of prolonged operations in the 16th and 17th century, lack of food or ammo due to cutting off of the supply line).

    If you had read about military operations in 16th, 17th, 18th or 19th century often there were no general engagements, often campaigns did not end with a huge battle but you had endless ''game of chess'' between opposing commanders - each wanted to outmaneuver the other, each wanted to force another to attack his strong position or to get the other in the weak position and attack him, if practicable (favorite general Lee's sentence), and in that ''game of chess'' if one army is positioned badly and there is time to maneuver to better position the general would usually use that small window of opportunity and retreat and change position. Or sometimes be caught during the maneuvering and defeated in detail (Pinkie Cleugh 1547. is the example of a battle where English army started maneuvering close to Scots and was saved from the disaster by the sacrifice of its cavalry who charged into the Scottish pikes in order to give time to the rest of army to finish its reordering. Salamanca 1812. is the example of an army caught on the march/maneuver and defeated due to bad decisions of its commander).

    That kind of thing is impossible in the Total War concept that we play for the last 20 years.

    2 - Sieges. Sieges must require at least 3 to 1 advantage in numbers for the attacker and could last for months. Great fort is covered by small forts surrounding it and any frontal assault is ripe to fail if there are not dug parallels to which you can put your arty and infantry closer. Also it requires the mine warfare. I will speak about siege warfare more later, but in Total War it has to change drastically.

    Fortification and siege warfare were separate art in itself and required great skill and specialization.

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