Huge gaps between formations and Shield Wall no longer works

[Dat_Bloke]

Hi, It's been a while since I last played Rome II DEI, and just decided to play it again a couple days ago. I found out that many of the formations were not the way it were before..

For Roman's Diciplined Formation and Greek Hoplite Phalanx, instead of forming a solid battle line when the formation button is pressed, they now created gaps between the units. Though yeah they are still effective in battle (The AI are often just dumb enough to not passed through the gaps, allowing my slingers to target their flanks through the gaps), it is just annoying to get inside formation first to put them together should I want to remove the gaps.

The second is that Shield Wall formation for all Barbarian factions no longer works. Gallic Heavy Inf for example, would be literally next to useless in battle. As spear infantries can perform much better (With the expert charge defense and greater number of 300 instead of 200). Is it because of the changes done by CA?

Thank you and my appology should this has been answered before, as I couldnt find any thread that talks about this particular issue.

[CadetNewb]

Just a heads up for the future, I think the DeI guys want all questions in the questions thread sticky. Moving forward though, Rome's Disciplined Formation is supposed to form a block-like shape, which will have gaps between them if units are deployed in typical fashion first. It's also a very situational formation that's meant to be used with care. As for the Greek Hoplite Phalanx, it's still working fine for me. I deploy the hoplites in a line, and once the phalanx is activated, they stay in a line without any gaps appearing. I can't say much about Barbarian shield walls though, since they just never appealed to me, but I am under the impression that it was removed from the bulk of their units, perhaps with the exception of a select few, for both historical and game-play reasons. Assuming I recall properly, they have specific units that fight in shield walls and other similar formations, but the majority of Gauls and other Celtic peoples rely on high troop numbers and shock tactics.

If your hoplites aren't holding the line properly when the phalanx is being activated and deactivated, there might be something else wrong.

[Demosthenes26]

you may be stretching the line too thin, which can lead to gaps between units. In one of the recent updates the minimum depth of many units was increased, so players can't cheese and say, defend a pass with two units stretched out only a couple ranks deep. There is a submod that allows slightly thinner lines though: https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfil...?id=1604616242

[Dresden]

Do you have any other mods active?

[KAM 2150]

Disciplined formation will always make soldier get close together as CA made it hardcoded so you can't stretch it more than it is plus soldier do get closer. In hoplite phalanx hoplites get a bit closer together but you can stretch the formation. If you have already super stretched battle line and only then activate formation, obviously all soldiers will get closer to the center of own unit, making gaps, this is how it worked since day one of the game release. You need to activate formation and then create a battle line. Of course there is always a chance that you have some submods that additionally mix up some stuff.

[Goffredo85]

KAM how and when would you suggest to use disciplined formation then?

[KAM 2150]

To hold off enemies when you want to buy yourself time or if you want to have fewer overall casualties. It also makes units a bit more resistant to cavalrz charges and ranged attacks.

[CadetNewb]

As KAM said, it makes a unit harder to kill in exchange for reducing their killing ability. Some people use this with their Hastati, stretching out the time that fodder lasts so you can kill the enemy with other units. Maybe Principes following up to charge the units pouring through the gaps and get that sweet outflanking bonus, or shoot the held-up enemy with ranged units. Alternatively, it can be used to hold a narrow choke-point like a river crossing or city street as an anvil while other units come in to land as a hammer. Just don't expect it to rack up the kills though.

[Dat_Bloke]

Ah yes I do understand that the recent updates is trying to emphasize on unit depths and eliminating any attempt to do the usual spaghety line tactic. Its just that before I could stretch the Hoplite Phalanx to only 4 men deep and still have the same effectiveness as that of deeper ranks.

[Dat_Bloke]

Apart from DEI base files, I only install:
1. Rome 1 music
2. Higher chance of animation kills
3. 1 turn research
4. Higher tax rate 50%

So I dont think any of those would affect the unit formation activation, right?

So far its only the Barbarian faction Shieldwall that is not working, event after the recent update.

[KAM 2150]

Can you link to that higher kill animation mod? Because ANY combat mod will break DeI.

Hoplite phalanx can be stretched now just like any other unit. Being able to stretch it to 4 ranks and having same effectiveness was just pire BS.

[Goffredo85]

KAM is ther a way to give disciplined formation a different animation which does not reduce the frontage so much?
another question: the tooltip says it lowers attack but actual stats say otherwise, it even gives a +1 against infantry. is it to compensate the fact that it is easy to be encircled?

[KAM 2150]

Sadly no, only other option is giving them pike phalanx which will make them useless as AI will only use it, even it it means they will never be able to attack player pikes due to lack of range. Plus it would add all bugs related to phalanx.

Bonus vs infantry is there in order to not make them weak. For some reason non phalanx formations make units much weaker even if you dont change their stuff. For example Principes without disciplined formation would beat same Principes in disciplined formation even if they would only engage frontally.

You can work around it by giving crazy high buffs to armour or defence but it looks a bit weird, bonus vs infantry works a lot better here. For example bonus vs infantry of 3 would already make them OP.

[Dat_Bloke]

Hi KAM, thanks for your reply, I have just tested disabling the Animation Kills mod and now everything works just fine.. I can finally able to activate the Shield Wall formation again.

The Mod is called "Increase Animation Kills-For DEI"
It works just fine before the update, so I guess the mod need to updated as well.

I hate to see the "Heart Attack" death during the mellee, which is why I downloaded it before.. Do you know any other mod that allow me to increase the chance of animation kills, without actually breaking the game?

[KAM 2150]

We have deleted heart attack animations more than a year ago. We have only normal death animtions that play as wpunded and dying soldiers and sync kill animations. Anyyhing more than this screews with combat. You can tey our official dynamic combat submod, it has more animated kills but also combat speed is heavily influenced.

[Dat_Bloke]

I see, I must have been missed it out, as I thought it was due to the mod.. Thank you for your great support KAM..

[KAM 2150]

I can try to make a submod like that for you but I wont have time to test it and how it affects battles overall across all cultures. PM me if you are interested.

[Dat_Bloke]

Thank you KAM, however I'm already satisfied with how the combat currently is.

[meerkatology]

i cant attest the shieldwall ability on some of the barbarian units seem really terrible, it looks like a phalanx but iits much much worse than hoplites or no formation at all

[BooBooLovesAll]

On a related question, does the AI not flank your line except with cavalry? So regalrdsss if your front line is 5 in length vs 10, the AI will just, match your line and just stack multiple units on one?