How do you rebuild a country?

[the Black Prince]

Those of you who follow UK news will know of the partial collapse of a dam in England, the drama, the evacuation etc.

One of the theories cited for the collapse is age. The dam was built in the 1800s and has lasted past its life expectancy.

And this got me thinking, most of the original industrial nations must be in the same position the UK is in. Our infrastructure largely dates from what we'd call the Victorian period - roughly 1830 to 1900. So over a hundred years ago.

Our railways, bridges, viaducts, canals, sewers, tunnels, dams and large parts our road network. Only motorways and airports are more recent.

Is all of this now wearing out? A Roman building might last 2000 years with regular maintenance, but it's not under the same stresses as a bridge or dam.

I recall the US recently had some issues with bridges too

How do we replicate the massive investment in infrastructure of the Victorian period to replace or upgrade or modernise everything 100+ years old? If we don't, we're surely likely to see more dams and bridges fail...

[Love Mountain]

It's not hard to fix. The resources, the knowledge, and the people are there to use it. All you need is political will and a money press (which England does have).

[Dekhatres]

fixing infrastructure lmao who gives a , it's 2k19 bruh, race and gender is where it's at m8

[Gaidin]

All industrial construction literally has two things. One, a shelf life, and two, the worst disaster it's rated for. If it's not replaced or reupped by the end of the shelf life, then whatever country's civil engineering agency/society will start lowering it's rating. At some point something's gotta give. And depending one what may or may not have been accounted for, something may happen earlier:

https://www.twincities.com/2017/07/2...anged-forever/

https://www.designnews.com/materials...12548856551275

So now they do things a bit different:

https://globalnews.ca/news/5304859/s...e-pigeon-poop/

[MacCarthy]

Those of you who follow UK news will know of the partial collapse of a dam in England, the drama, the evacuation etc.

One of the theories cited for the collapse is age. The dam was built in the 1800s and has lasted past its life expectancy.

And this got me thinking, most of the original industrial nations must be in the same position the UK is in. Our infrastructure largely dates from what we'd call the Victorian period - roughly 1830 to 1900. So over a hundred years ago.

Our railways, bridges, viaducts, canals, sewers, tunnels, dams and large parts our road network. Only motorways and airports are more recent.

Is all of this now wearing out? A Roman building might last 2000 years with regular maintenance, but it's not under the same stresses as a bridge or dam.

I recall the US recently had some issues with bridges too

How do we replicate the massive investment in infrastructure of the Victorian period to replace or upgrade or modernise everything 100+ years old? If we don't, we're surely likely to see more dams and bridges fail...

IMO the US interstate system is over worked by heavy truck traffic. They rather send cargo across country in several semi-trailers than by rail.
So pavement that should last 20 years , wear out in 7.

[Common Soldier]

IMO the US interstate system is over worked by heavy truck traffic. They rather send cargo across country in several semi-trailers than by rail.
So pavement that should last 20 years , wear out in 7.

It is worse than that. US doesn't build its road beds as deep as in European countries, and typically a lower quality concrete is used. Also, in road construction, an the contractor has to do is meet specifications, while it is my understanding that the contractor in Europe has to warranty the roads does a certain length of time. I have seen where one side of a road redone at the same time as the other side fell apart after just a couple of years, while the other side was ok. The side hjust had a poor batch of concrete, but it still presumably meet specifications. The Euorpean roads (French, German) are a little more expensive up front, since the material is a little more expensive, but no doubt save more over the long run.


Old infrastructure can be hard to replace. Trump the candidate had innovative ideas on how to fund these updates to US infrastructure through ouvlic-privat partnerships and tax credits, but I haven't heard much of that plan lately. Democrats want to fund infratructue updates through federal spending.

[Love Mountain]

IMO the US interstate system is over worked by heavy truck traffic. They rather send cargo across country in several semi-trailers than by rail.
So pavement that should last 20 years , wear out in 7.

That's because rail cannot go everywhere and if something is time sensitive, which it often is, trucks are faster. The US rail handles an enormous amount of cargo. Trucks handle the margins and local logistics.

[Morifea]

@Sukiyama: I always thought the US Rail is kinda bad, at least when it comes to passenger trains.

I see it as a trend in most first world countries... since the 90s the investments in infastructure have gone down or where misused... its more sexy for a politican to inaugurate a new road then to pay for the maintenance.

In Germany a lot of efforts where directed into eastern Germany (paid by an extra tax, Solidaritätszuschlag), therefore alot of the Roads there are better then in western Germany.
A big problem are the canals and waterways, most of the locks and floodgates are from the early 1900s, some even older.

Our Rail is another point, the Deutsche Bahn has failed to invest into Cargo transport while putting alot of effort into highspeed trains like the ICE... which cant`t operate efficient, since their using the same Rail-lines like the slow cargotrains.

[hellheaven1987]

How do we replicate the massive investment in infrastructure of the Victorian period to replace or upgrade or modernise everything 100+ years old?

By print more cash.

@Sukiyama: I always thought the US Rail is kinda bad, at least when it comes to passenger trains.

Probably because a passenger trains stop in a town of 10k population is retarded, and unfortunately most Americans live in those small settlements.

[conon394]

Trump the candidate had innovative ideas on how to fund these updates to US infrastructure through ouvlic-privat partnerships and tax credits

Nah his plans were drivel. They might get some nice toll road built for a commute to Seattle from a wealthy suburb, but they wont say update and fix the crumbling freeways, bridges and locals roads around Detroit that bear the burden of working trucks. They might get some more expensive condos in San Cruz with a 5g network but not 5g in rural Montana. Upgrade century old levies along the Mississippi - nope. Build the bridges needed to allow the US have commuter trains that run at least as fast as the UK nope. But probably manage to fund golf courses in Arizona - yep.

In any case spend a lot of money at the national level. But with Bush Tax cuts and Bush the US kinda missed the chance of a Generation (and republicans terrified about deficits except for those caused by tax cuts).
When the Greek crises was rocking the Euro - a sans the debt wasted on Iraq and the largly pointless forever war on Terror, the US could likely have financed a 1 or eve 2 trillion dollar round of infrastructure spending with out a blip and at very low interest rates.

[PointOfViewGun]

This is perhaps what will bring USA down for real. The aging infrastructure is one place where USA lags behind many other nations. However, it can also be what brings USA to the top back. The drive to basically reset USA's infrastructure will be expensive but it can also generate a lot of jobs as well as support many businesses.

4 years old but even more relevant (beware of the language):

[Cyclops]

Building a country takes high taxes. Currently low taxes are flavour of the moth with the chattering idiots. Ideologues typically believe in ideas rather than reality: the reality is high taxes build and rebuild countries.

When the US was actually being made into the world power it is today they had personal tax rates scaling up to the 80's and 90's at the top tier. When the UK was facing crises like WWI and II they jacked the top rate up into the 90's as well.

Selfish individuals break the system, either legally by bribing politicians to lower tax rates, or semi/illegally by evading tax to increase personal wealth. They undermine the security and wealth of our nations and the institutions that make them great.

Low taxes are unpatriotic. Ideologues spouting about low taxes typically serve a few wealthy masters.

[MacCarthy]

https://www.bts.gov/newsroom/2017-no...reight-numbers

Trucking far outweighs rail in goods moved in the US. The transportation of goods by trucks to and from a distribution hub could make up a good portion of that number.
There's still around 20% are shipments greater than 250 miles. Then add in highway safety with truckers that can be over worked and lacking sleep to meet a schedule.

In my area there's several rail lines that are abandoned or have been converted to foot/bike ways around the city.

Perhaps Elon Musk can save us with his vacuum tube transportation system.

*mentioning waterway locks, the current course of action seems to be removing them to return rivers back to a more natural flow

[Gaidin]

Probably because a passenger trains stop in a town of 10k population is retarded, and unfortunately most Americans live in those small settlements.

Drop a scale map of Europe on the US before you make this criticism.

[Love Mountain]

@Sukiyama: I always thought the US Rail is kinda bad, at least when it comes to passenger trains.

Only passenger trains. US has the best freight rail network in the world.

I see it as a trend in most first world countries... since the 90s the investments in infastructure have gone down or where misused... its more sexy for a politican to inaugurate a new road then to pay for the maintenance.

In Germany a lot of efforts where directed into eastern Germany (paid by an extra tax, Solidaritätszuschlag), therefore alot of the Roads there are better then in western Germany.
A big problem are the canals and waterways, most of the locks and floodgates are from the early 1900s, some even older.

Our Rail is another point, the Deutsche Bahn has failed to invest into Cargo transport while putting alot of effort into highspeed trains like the ICE... which cant`t operate efficient, since their using the same Rail-lines like the slow cargotrains.

I don't about Germany, but the problem with maintenance of the Interstate system and other highways, is gas taxes not keeping up with inflation.

https://www.bts.gov/newsroom/2017-no...reight-numbers

Trucking far outweighs rail in goods moved in the US. The transportation of goods by trucks to and from a distribution hub could make up a good portion of that number.
There's still around 20% are shipments greater than 250 miles. Then add in highway safety with truckers that can be over worked and lacking sleep to meet a schedule.

In my area there's several rail lines that are abandoned or have been converted to foot/bike ways around the city.

Perhaps Elon Musk can save us with his vacuum tube transportation system.

*mentioning waterway locks, the current course of action seems to be removing them to return rivers back to a more natural flow

You're looking at value of the freight moved. I'm talking about total volume.



Rail and Truck are a lot more competitive. The two complement each other as well as compete against each other. Rail is a lot cheaper, but it obviously doesn't go everywhere. U.S. rail isn't going anywhere for a while. In fact, like trucks, they'll have a bit of a renaissance soon. Automation is hitting railroads hard, just like it will with trucks.

[conon394]

Simple fix would to right them to adjust to the CPI and not be flat. You could also toss in an automatic % decreases for negative GDP growth.

[z3n]

Wait as long as you can, then implement post WW2 style infrastructure building in Europe / Western countries by building railways reliant on automation and drone technology, along with better highways that accommodate automated cars and trucks, perhaps even a specific lane for them.

Emphasize speed, and efficiency of movement for goods and people.

[the Black Prince]

Building a country takes high taxes. Currently low taxes are flavour of the moth with the chattering idiots. Ideologues typically believe in ideas rather than reality: the reality is high taxes build and rebuild countries.

If memory serves, most of the Victorian infrastructure I was thinking of was built either by private funding (rail) or by local corporations (ports). I think the main victorian sewer systems were funded from local taxation and certainly the 60s highway constructions were.

[Common Soldier]

Nah his plans were drivel. They might get some nice toll road built for a commute to Seattle from a wealthy suburb, but they wont say update and fix the crumbling freeways, bridges and locals roads around Detroit that bear the burden of working trucks. They might get some more expensive condos in San Cruz with a 5g network but not 5g in rural Montana. Upgrade century old levies along the Mississippi - nope. Build the bridges needed to allow the US have commuter trains that run at least as fast as the UK nope. But probably manage to fund golf courses in Arizona - yep.

In any case spend a lot of money at the national level. But with Bush Tax cuts and Bush the US kinda missed the chance of a Generation (and republicans terrified about deficits except for those caused by tax cuts).
When the Greek crises was rocking the Euro - a sans the debt wasted on Iraq and the largly pointless forever war on Terror, the US could likely have financed a 1 or eve 2 trillion dollar round of infrastructure spending with out a blip and at very low interest rates.

Ok, I guess there isn't a clever way of avoiding having to spend a lot of money.to rebuild the US infrastructure.

I think just as damaging as Bush tax cuts was his war in Iraq. A lot of money got sunk into that war, and many long time US allies said it was a bad idea. Even if Saddam had had nuclear weapons, he was less dsnterous than North Korea, and the US never seriously considered invading North Korea. And eliminating Saddam helped set the stage for ISIS to move in, which is not an improvement of Saddam. Money spent on the war could have been spent on infrastructure.

[95thrifleman]

The last time we rebuilt Britain, back in 1948 (after 380,000 military deaths and 67,000 civilian along with massive infrastructure and industrial damage) we imported black people from the colonies who then filled the labour market, helped rebuild the nation and added to our culture and productivity.

But apparently that's ethnic cleansing and an act of genocide against whites.

So I guess all we can do now is spend money we don't have and hope it doesn't all fall apart.