Why were 20 people shot dead and 24 injured in El Paso today, and what’s causing the recent trend since the 90s of mass shootings and massacres.

[Cope]

Do you really not know why extra-judicial capital punishment is a bad thing?

Eliminating a clear and present threat to the lives of innocent people by way of force isn't a "punishment".

Strike this. It was an extra-judicial killing.

[95thrifleman]

" The simple fact is America, as a nation, consider the lives of children to be worth less than the cost of a gun."

Utter drivel.

Really? Sandy Hook, Columbine, Red Lake, West Nickel Mines, Virginia Tech, Northern Illimois Uni, Oikos Uni, Santa Monica College, Marysville Pilhuck High School, Umpqua Community College, Marshall County High School Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, Santa Fe High School.

The list goes on and on in schools across america with no changes to gun laws, so tell me how exactly do Americans value children more than guns?

[Prodromos]

So it's made up then. I mean I know that 95thrifleman's point was (as usual) utter drivel, but you don't need to rely on fictitious statistics to demonstrate that.

Who knows. But the point is, a child is infinitely more likely to be gang raped in Britain than killed in a mass shooting in America. But we certainly won't hear Rifleman claim that Britain considers the life of a child to be worth less than a curry house.

[95thrifleman]

Do you really not know why extra-judicial capital punishment is a bad thing?

Rather telling he had to drag an example from 1983

[The spartan]

Eliminating a clear and present threat to the lives of innocent people by way of force isn't a "punishment".

Strike this. It was an extra-judicial killing.

Huh?

[Cope]

Really? Sandy Hook, Columbine, Red Lake, West Nickel Mines, Virginia Tech, Northern Illimois Uni, Oikos Uni, Santa Monica College, Marysville Pilhuck High School, Umpqua Community College, Marshall County High School Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, Santa Fe High School.

The list goes on and on in schools across america with no changes to gun laws, so tell me how exactly do Americans value children more than guns?

Of a juvenile population (that is persons aged 18 or under) of ~75,000,000, 8 have been fatally wounded in school shootings in 2019. That's 0.0000106% of the school age population. Your position is hysterical drivel.

[The spartan]

Who knows. But the point is, a child is infinitely more likely to be gang raped in Britain than killed in a mass shooting in America. But we certainly won't hear Rifleman claim that Britain considers the life of a child to be worth less than a curry house.

I am seeing a lot of words chosen for emotional appeal rather than accuracy: "infinitely more likely", "gang raped", "life of a child". That plus the creepy racial element you are adding to this with the focus on Pakistanis (and their apparent necessity to have a curry house in the country) when the article you misquoted never mentioned Pakistanis or even immigrants, brings your post total to about a 2/10. It could be a good soundbite to use on dumb people who really don't like Pakistanis.

[95thrifleman]

Who knows. But the point is, a child is infinitely more likely to be gang raped in Britain than killed in a mass shooting in America. But we certainly won't hear Rifleman claim that Britain considers the life of a child to be worth less than a curry house.

I find it bloody funny you take what is a baseless, left wing anti-tory opinion piece as proof. Then again the right wing, mulsim haters do seem obsessed with this issue, ignoring the fact that the vast majority of peados in both the Uk and USA are white from christian backgrounds.

But any, desperate attempt to deflect from the sorry fact that Americans just don't seem to care how many of their kids die in school shootings.

[Cope]

I find it bloody funny you take what is a baseless, left wing anti-tory opinion piece as proof. Then again the right wing, mulsim haters do seem obsessed with this issue, ignoring the fact that the vast majority of peados in both the Uk and USA are white from christian backgrounds.

But any, desperate attempt to deflect from the sorry fact that Americans just don't seem to care how many of their kids die in school shootings.

This from a person who openly advocated for the criminally indiscriminate carpet bombing of Iraq. Your arguments really are among the most hypocritical and contemptible I've ever seen on this board.

[95thrifleman]

This from a person who openly advocated for the criminally indiscriminate carpet bombing of Iraq. Your arguments really are among the most hypocritical and contemptible I've ever seen on this board.

Really? How is fighting war properly, hypocritical?

Yes, I think if you are going to do something, it needs to be done properly. Had we used the same tactics in Iraq that where employed in WW2 BOTH during the war and the post war rebuilding you'd never see Isis.

But please, keep deflecting from the fact you love your guns more than your children.

[Cope]

Really? How is fighting war properly, hypocritical?

Yes, I think if you are going to do something, it needs to be done properly. Had we used the same tactics in Iraq that where employed in WW2 BOTH during the war and the post war rebuilding you'd never see Isis.

But please, keep deflecting from the fact you love your guns more than your children.

There you have it folks. A person who explicitly calls for military policies which would result in the deliberate destruction of tens of thousands of innocent Muslim civilians (and would by any modern standard be considered criminal) has the temerity to accuse others of Islamophobia and moral degeneracy. Like I said, your arguments are hypocritical and contemptible in equal measure.

[Cyclops]

...forced, with a notorious lack of enthusiasm, don't you agree?...

I think Trump shows a lack of enthusiasm for being president. He did the right thing in this instance, even if its because Pence or an adviser told him too.

Sometimes when he's said and done the wrong thing its because he's a puppet with Bannon or Putin holding the strings. Maybe Trump is casually racist, he's an older guy with few morals so its plausible. I think his vitriol against Mexicans was for election purposes, like his dogwhistling wannabe Nazis and KKK types.

Maybe he can cool things down with less "Mexicans are rapists" tweets.

[95thrifleman]

There you have it folks. A person who explicitly calls for military policies which would result in the deliberate destruction of tens of thousands of innocent Muslim civilians (and would by any modern standard be considered criminal) has the temerity to accuse others of Islamophobia and moral degeneracy. Like I said, your arguments are hypocritical and contemptible in equal measure.

There you have it folks. More desperate attempts to deflect from the fact that America's lack of action in response to school shootings shows they value children less than guns.

No amount of derailment, whataboutism or deflection avoids it.

[Cope]

There you have it folks. More desperate attempts to deflect from the fact that America's lack of action in response to school shootings shows they value children less than guns.

No amount of derailment, whataboutism or deflection avoids it.

You can keep repeating your asinine drivel till kingdom come, it won't make it true. I've already shown how the statistically negligible probability of a child being fatally wounded in a school shooting in the US plainly contradicts your already baseless accusations. Did you respond to that post? No, of course you didn't. Will you qualify your claims? No, of course you won't. Do you really have any understanding of firearms culture in the US? No, of course you don't. As I've said, and will say again, your argument is just contemptible garbage.

[Aexodus]

Bleaargh this is getting toxic. I’m not a moderator and I don’t want to play at being one but if you guys don’t cool down mods will lock the thread and no-one wants that.

[95thrifleman]

Bleaargh this is getting toxic. I’m not a moderator and I don’t want to play at being one but if you guys don’t cool down mods will lock the thread and no-one wants that.

That's the problem. I point out that despite school shooting after school shooting the Americans do not change any legislation. By any estimation this shows they love their guns more than the lives of these school kids.

Look at the other nations that have had gun massacres and then changed the laws to prevent it.

Failing to have a response to this point the gun supporters try to derail, deflect and then resort to outright personal attacks because they can not deal with that painful truth. If Americans cared about these schoolkids they would, as other nations have done, change their gun laws to prevent them.

[z3n]

Interestingly, the romans struggled with weapons as well. Their solution was to use religion to forbid weapons in certain areas of the city which were considered sacred (the pomerium). Of course, this did not apply to everywhere within Rome, and Caesar was subsequently killed within the city but outside of the pomerium. That's not really a possibility anymore as most western countries are not as religious any more, and therefore less likely to hold certain values.


The state should fear its populace, they should not want to engage in too much violence against their citizens for fear of armed reprisal. USA's founders were quite clever in that sense. Regardless, 4.46 gun homicides per 100'000 of the population in the USA is nowhere near the 66.64 of 100'000 people gun homicides of the worlds leading country (Honduras). Obviously you would want 0 deaths in homicides related to guns or any weapon, but lets be honest; the criminals who do things like that would obtain guns illegally like they do in other western countries. Germany has 1.01 deaths per 100'000 but has some of the strictest gun laws in all of Europe; it's also only ranked 10 countries ahead of USA. Canada follows in at 2 countries after Germany and also has strict (stricter in my opinion than Germany) gun laws.

[Heathen Hammer]

Gun control does not mean disarming the population.

What do you mean by "gun control" then? It seems like US already has gun control and it doesn't really have a huge gun problem.

You think food standards lead to famine? Novel.

Over-regulation did also cause mass-famines.

[mongrel]

What do you mean by "gun control" then? It seems like US already has gun control and it doesn't really have a huge gun problem.

It has a problem with males wishing to impose daft ideologies by killing people, sometimes en masse. Tired of people on this forum excusing such nonsense.

[Prodromos]

Do you really not know why extra-judicial capital punishment is a bad thing?

I think there's a golden mean between anarchy and government monopoly on justice. In a society where justice is dispensed perfectly, there's no need for people to take matters into their own hands. But when the government fails in its duties and doesn't punish criminals properly, people will try to pick up the slack. This is one area where the right to keep and bear arms comes in quite handy.

I am seeing a lot of words chosen for emotional appeal rather than accuracy: "infinitely more likely", "gang raped", "life of a child". That plus the creepy racial element you are adding to this with the focus on Pakistanis (and their apparent necessity to have a curry house in the country) when the article you misquoted never mentioned Pakistanis or even immigrants, brings your post total to about a 2/10. It could be a good soundbite to use on dumb people who really don't like Pakistanis.

I don't see what's emotional about it. The majority of grooming gangs in the UK are Pakistani, if I recall correctly, so imprisoning all Pakistanis would get rid of most grooming gangs, in the same way that imprisoning all AR-15 owners would get rid of mass shootings.

The right to keep and bear arms is a human right, no different from any other right. Either human rights violations are an acceptable means of reducing crime or they aren't. You can't advocate human rights violations in one breath and in the next breath condemn them as intrinsically wrong.