Why were 20 people shot dead and 24 injured in El Paso today, and what’s causing the recent trend since the 90s of mass shootings and massacres.

[Common Soldier]

Ordinary American citizens are not deciding one morning to go outside with an assault rifle to kill randomly:

1 - Most of the kills have nothing to do with the ''gun culture'' but with the ''drug culture'' and are related to criminals.

2 - Second thing is complete silence from the left that majority of crimes are prevented by usage of the guns in self defense. The right to have guns is unique and only fools would want to lose it.

All true. 99.9999% of the guys owners don't go around shooting people. Only an extremely small.percentage go around shooting people. That said, if even only a few lives are saved by stricter gun laws, would it be worth it? How many lives would need to be saved by implementing stricter gun laws in order to justify them? I don't know the answer.

Also, I don't know of case of someone using a semi automatic rifle for self defense. If there is one, I would to see it. For self defense, I would rather have a 12 gauge shotgun. There is much less risk of a bullet missing its Target and hitting an innocent bystander. That said, I think there could be room for compromise in the topic. Allowing guns with limited capacity, like revovlers, does provide the means for self defense, yet limits the danger of a pschyco shooter. I don't know of a single case of civilian self defense where more than 6 shots were needed.

[Love Mountain]

All true. 99.9999% of the guys owners don't go around shooting people. Only an extremely small.percentage go around shooting people. That said, if even only a few lives are saved by stricter gun laws, would it be worth it? How many lives would need to be saved by implementing stricter gun laws in order to justify them? I don't know the answer.

Depends on the gun laws. The issue with Democrats, is that they are incapable of marketing the issue in a positive way.

Also, I don't know of case of someone using a semi automatic rifle for self defense. If there is one, I would to see it. For self defense, I would rather have a 12 gauge shotgun. There is much less risk of a bullet missing its Target and hitting an innocent bystander. That said, I think there could be room for compromise in the topic. Allowing guns with limited capacity, like revovlers, does provide the means for self defense, yet limits the danger of a pschyco shooter. I don't know of a single case of civilian self defense where more than 6 shots were needed.

Semi automatic rifles are rarely used for murder. The mass majority of firearm deaths use pistols. Fact is, a lot of these shootings could've been prevented by a thorough background check and a psych eval.

[The spartan]

I don't see anything wrong with citizen's ability to own "high-capacity" firearms. Some may just prefer something like an AK-47, it should be up to their own choice.

Do you know the event of the thread you are posting in? Mass shootings are part of having broad civilian access to "high-capacity" firearms. It's one we, as Americans, accept and tolerate, but it was a known bargain.

[Heathen Hammer]

And car accidents are part of having broad civilian access to vehicles. And car accidents are far more prevalent then mass shootings, which are quite minuscule even in retrospective of overall crime rates, let alone mortality overall.

[Love Mountain]

Cars have considerably more regulations. In fact, they are constantly regulated to be safer for everyone. Starting with seatbelts, to mandating requirement on active safety technologies. There is legislation on drinking while driving, on intoxication levels, finally there's safety improvement in the roads themselves. From materials used to traffic control systems.

So no, bad example. Car accidents per capita have been steadily going down.

[Heathen Hammer]

Violent crime per capita has also been going down. There are plenty of regulations in regards to firearms, from background checks to gun-free areas. It seems that pro-gun control crowd isn't concerned with population's safety, but rather wants to make the latter more dependent on the state.

[Love Mountain]

Violent crime per capita has also been going down. There are plenty of regulations in regards to firearms, from background checks to gun-free areas.

Then it would seem that gun regulations are indeed working and we should institute more of them.

It seems that pro-gun control crowd isn't concerned with population's safety, but rather wants to make the latter more dependent on the state.

I'd rather rely on the state than the profit motivations of an unscrupulous firearm seller.

[Heathen Hammer]

Then it would seem that gun regulations are indeed working and we should institute more of them.

Over-regulation creates problems as well. Especially since purpose of firearms is self-defense, and over-regulation in this case would leave citizens unarmed and defenseless at mercy of violent criminals.

I'd rather rely on the state than the profit motivations of an unscrupulous firearm seller.

That's the line of thinking that gave us Third Reich, USSR and Mao's China.

[Ludicus]

Gun control is just a form of authoritarianism...It seems that pro-gun control crowd isn't concerned with population's safety, but rather wants to make the latter more dependent on the state.

Another...bizarre, nonsensical idea.

Global Firearms Holdings, Dynamic Map https://bit.ly/2ttGxMK
Switzerland has a deeply-rooted gun culture, but has has rarely seen mass shootings. Last May, in a national referendum, 63.7% of voters nationwide agreed to toughen its laws on firearms possession in order to bring it in line with the European Union legislation on the matter.

Conclusion: Switzerland is under an authoritarian regime.

[Love Mountain]

Over-regulation creates problems as well. Especially since purpose of firearms is self-defense, and over-regulation in this case would leave citizens unarmed and defenseless at mercy of violent criminals.

Under-regulation resulted in regular 80 hour work weeks, company towns, and lack of basic sanitation.

That's the line of thinking that gave us Third Reich, USSR and Mao's China.

And food standards. I know, imagine the horror of uninfected food.

[Katsumoto]

As Thomas Jefferson said:

It is essential that Americans remain ready to respond to any threat that would encroach on our dearly won freedom.

That is why the tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants and kindergartners and newlyweds and grandpas and high-schoolers and dads and teachers and moms and worshippers and workers and occasionally infants.

We vow to never again find ourselves caught in the ruthless grip of the British Empire or a group of lifelong friends reuniting at a country music festival.

I hope that this point will be sufficiently clarified in our Constitution, so that our descendants may understand fully the need for an armed and well-regulated group of citizens that can put down any despotic government, ninth-grade class, synagogue congregation, The Dark Knight Rises audience, or group of shoppers at a Walmart that rises up against them.

https://www.theonion.com/thomas-jeff...she-1836974855

[Aexodus]

Over-regulation creates problems as well. Especially since purpose of firearms is self-defense, and over-regulation in this case would leave citizens unarmed and defenseless at mercy of violent criminals.

That's the line of thinking that gave us Third Reich, USSR and Mao's China.

Under-regulation resulted in regular 80 hour work weeks, company towns, and lack of basic sanitation.



And food standards. I know, imagine the horror of uninfected food.

There’s a time and a place for both introducing or removing regulation.

To be honest you’re not going to get anywhere with HH.

[Ludicus]

That's the line of thinking that gave us Third Reich, USSR and Mao's China.

Sure...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

The irony,
Trump vetoes 3 bills prohibiting arms sales to Saudi Arabia

------

Why More And More Countries Are Blocking Arms Sales To Saudi

Why? according to H.H.. we are all communists. Guns in the European Union — Firearms, gun law and gun control
------

As Thomas Jefferson said:
is essential that Americans remain ready to respond to any threat that would encroach on our dearly won freedom.

Don't take this too literally, Jefferson lived in a revolutionary period. Jefferson also wrote in the Declaration of Independence " all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator (1) with certain inalienable rights"
(1) debatable
But in the egalitarian statement, the word men indicate only white people. Throughout his life, Jefferson believed that all persons of African descent should be permitted to reside in the new Republic unless they were enslaved, because he said, "blacks are inferior to whites in the endowment both of the body and mind".

[Love Mountain]

Its satire Ludicus.

[Cyclops]

There’s a time and a place for both introducing or removing regulation.

Indeed. You've brought up and framed a very good discussion here and despite attempts to derail its worth continuing with.

Gun regulation and mass shootings are related but the vast majority of gun deaths are not mass shootings. Currently the US has a massive oversupply of weapons plus and regionally entrenched culture of private dealers. Regulation patchy because of states rights and there's a flourishing black market as well.

Its unlikely sensible gun reform would bear much fruit in the short term. It might even lead to a spike of armed resistance from entrenched sub cultures (eg the African-American gangs where the huge proportion of gun deaths occur, or white supremacist/survivalist types).

Mas shootings do have a mental health aspect. a reduction in mental health services in my country was linked to some police shootings, that is police shot some mentally ill individuals, eg an axe-wielding maniac. Its extremely tragic that someone who should have been in a schizophrenia ward found herself homeless and berserk facing a 22 year old rookie cop, one of them was going to die.

There is a political dimension as well. A dangerous ideology can become a flame for suicidal moths: in my country there was a seige in Sydney (the Lindt Cafe siege) where a mentally ill rapist on man who was about to go to gaol took hostages with a shotgun. He claimed to be a representative of Islamic state but lacked the flag (the police had to supply one, they got the wrong flag in any case) and turned out to be a "wounded narcissist" rather than a terrorist (he was actually a Shia Iranian, the last person ISIS would accept).

If stupid racist paranoia like the "Great Replacement" nonsense, or the President raving about "Mexican rapists" create a toxic crusade, self destructive moths will fly into it. In the same way that the evil Islamic State sucks up hopeless cases (mostly but not all from the Islamic community) so hopeless Anglo-Christians will be sucked into this evil ideology.

I'm very glad the president spoke clearly against White Supremacy. He's spoken clearly about the evils of Radical Islam and that had to be said: so did this.

I suspect the influence of Mike Pence in this. He's a fairly conservative figure, but I think a moral man with his own code and i can't imagine him tolerating this sort of evil. Good to see that scab-faced scumbag Bannon has lost influence and someone (I guess Pence) giving the President wise counsel.

To be honest you’re not going to get anywhere with HH.

Its still worth continuing the discussion though, I hate to use it but the ignore button is useful for time-wasters.

[Common Soldier]

One thing stricter gun laws might prevent is suicides. Suicides are a growing problem, and guns are the leading method of successful ones among whites. I can help but think that guns might be contributing to it. It is much easier to off yourself in a momentary fit of.depression if you have a gun lying around. If you had to get in your car, and drive to a bridge to jump off, you have will more time to change your mind. More controls might keep guns out of the hands of such people.

[NorthernXY]

One thing stricter gun laws might prevent is suicides. Suicides are a growing problem, and guns are the leading method of successful ones among whites. I can help but think that guns might be contributing to it. It is much easier to off yourself in a momentary fit of.depression if you have a gun lying around. If you had to get in your car, and drive to a bridge to jump off, you have will more time to change your mind. More comfortable nttrols might keep guns out of the hands of such people.

The problem you present though is the person already has the gun. Are people with guns going to be required to take quarterly psych evaluations? If someone is suicidal and doesn't have a gun, they drive to said bridge.

If I don't have a gun and I want to kill people, I can hop in my car and drive through the crowd at a farmer's market or a parade.

[Love Mountain]

The problem you present though is the person already has the gun. Are people with guns going to be required to take quarterly psych evaluations? If someone is suicidal and doesn't have a gun, they drive to said bridge.

If I don't have a gun and I want to kill people, I can hop in my car and drive through the crowd at a farmer's market or a parade.

Which is more difficult and less lethal than a mass shooting. Your example proves the opposite, as the Charlottesville and the Berlin Truck attack proves.

[Caduet]

I really feel like they have a lawsuit incoming.

for what

[Infidel144]

The Texas school shooting last year used a shotgun and a revolver because those are the guns the kids’ Dad had lying out and not locked in a safe.

The Aurora Colorado shooter as well (he also had a rifle w/ drum magazine which malfunctioned as I recall).

==========
Jefferson quotes:
As to the species of exercise, I advise the gun. While this gives a moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise, and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball, and others of that nature, are too violent for the body, and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks. Never think of taking a book with you.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to his nephew Peter Carr (19 August 1785), from Paris, France.

One loves to possess arms, though they hope never to have occasion for them.
Thomas Jefferson, letter to George Washington, 1796. As quoted in The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, Lipscomb and Bergh, editors, 20 Vols., Washington, D.C., 1903-04, 9:341.

For a people who are free, and who mean to remain so, a well organized and armed militia is their best security.
Thomas Jefferson, Eighth State of the Union Address (8 November 1808)

The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, … or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed; that they are entitled to freedom of person, freedom of religion, freedom of property, and freedom of the press.
Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Major John Cartwright (5 June 1824)

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Second...omas_Jefferson


Falsa idea di utilità è quella, che sacrifica mille vantaggi reali, per un inconveniente o immaginario, o di poca conseguenza, che toglierebbe agli uomini il fuoco perchè incendia, e l'acqua perchè annega; che non ripara ai mali, che col distruggere. Le leggi, che proibiscono di portar le armi, sono leggi di tal natura; esse non disarmano che i non inclinati, nè determinati ai delitti, mentre coloro che hanno il coraggio di poter violare le leggi più sacre della umanità è le più importanti del codice, come rispetteranno le minori, e le puramente arbitrarie? Queste peggiorano la condizione degli assaliti migliorando quella degli assalitori, non iscemano gli omicidi, ma gli accrescono, perchè è maggiore la confidenza nell'assalire i disarmati, che gli armati. Queste si chiaman leggi, non preventrici, ma paurose dei delitti, che nascono dalla tumultuosa impressione di alcuni fatti particolari, non dalla ragionata meditazione degl'inconvenienti, ed avvantaggi di un decreto universale.

Jefferson, The Commonplace Book of Thomas Jefferson: A Repertory of His Ideas on Government, where he is quoting Cesare Beccaria, Dei Delitti E Delle Pene: Edizione Rivista ...

English translation of this passage, which appeared in the 1809 edition that Jefferson later owned:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

A principal source of errors and injustice are false ideas of utility. For example: that legislator has false ideas of utility who considers particular more than general conveniencies, who had rather command the sentiments of mankind than excite them, who dares say to reason, "Be thou a slave;" who would sacrifice a thousand real advantages to the fear of an imaginary or trifling inconvenience; who would deprive men of the use of fire for fear of their being burnt, and of water for fear of their being drowned; and who knows of no means of preventing evil but by destroying it.

The laws of this nature are those which forbid to wear arms, disarming those only who are not disposed to commit the crime which the laws mean to prevent. Can it be supposed, that those who have the courage to violate the most sacred laws of humanity, and the most important of the code, will respect the less considerable and arbitrary injunctions, the violation of which is so easy, and of so little comparative importance? Does not the execution of this law deprive the subject of that personal liberty, so dear to mankind and to the wise legislator? and does it not subject the innocent to all the disagreeable circumstances that should only fall on the guilty? It certainly makes the situation of the assaulted worse, and of the assailants better, and rather encourages than prevents murder, as it requires less courage to attack unarmed than armed persons.

https://www.monticello.org/site/rese...tnote3_d6m6bzy