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Thread: Tsardoms Total War - FACTION PREVIEW: Tsardom of Serbia (Complete overhaul)

  1. #61
    Wallachian's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - FACTION PREVIEW: Tsardom of Serbia (Complete overhaul)

    Quote Originally Posted by PavleSubich View Post
    i cant imagine it to be an unit weapon more like an individual thing:
    Except later in the pike and shot era it vas used in units for anticav charge!
    Indeed. The proper two-handed weapons, anachronistically called Zweihanders, became weapons used by larger masses of infantry in the renaissance era in Western Europe when they were deployed against the pike blocks (not cavalry). Which is why they are the only types of two-handed weapons depicted in Tsardoms.

    Were there some sort of longswords possibly used as two-handed swords in Serbia? It seems so. But at the time the Serbian roster was designed over a decade ago it was decided not to include them as a separate unit. Could the Serbian roster benefit from such a unit? Sure, why not, at one point we could add it. But it will have to be a shared unit no matter what simply because now we are at the point of improving several factions at a time rather than only one faction.
    Last edited by Wallachian; August 10, 2020 at 08:43 AM.

  2. #62

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - FACTION PREVIEW: Tsardom of Serbia (Complete overhaul)

    Quote Originally Posted by PavleSubich View Post
    i cant imagine it to be an unit weapon more like an individual thing:
    Except later in the pike and shot era it vas used in units for anticav charge!
    You are not taking into account some important things:

    1. Medieval formations weren't always made up of men who were armed with the same type of weapon. They often consisted of men armed with various types of weapons... two handed swords, one handed swords, spears, pollaxes, halberds, other polearms etc.

    Although they're not a detailed study on the composition of medieval fighting formations, the images bellow help illustrate what I'm trying to say.

    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4161/7463/

    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4163/8801/

    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/3986/10891/

    http://manuscriptminiatures.com/4144/7427/

    Unfortunately, Medieval 2's engine is limited, it cannot represent such mixed fighting groups. Instead, mods make due with making separate units of swordsmen, spearmen, macemen, halberdiers etc.


    2. There are existing precedents. The mod already has whole units of macemen and one handed axemen. For the life of me, I don't remember ever seeing whole groups of men armed exclusively with maces or one handed axes in medieval artwork or records - yet there they are in the game. Maybe there are some, but they can't be found in medieval Serbia.

    3. The importance of representation. I hope I have managed to present enough information about the frequent use of two handed swords in Serbia. When a type of weapon is used to such an extent, it deserves to be represented. Wanna represent how medieval Serbian armored troops fought on foot? Make a unit that matches archeological discoveries. Besides, there are no indications that the use of the two handed sword was limited to Serbia. The articles about the Schiavonesca give information about their spread into Hungary. Croatia was a part of the Kingdom of Hungary for centuries, there's a good chance that local military traditions were influenced to a large extent by the Hungarians. Also, a longsword was found in a river in Bosnia not that long ago.

    EDIT: Here is news article about the find. There are lovely images as well.

    http://thesrpskatimes.com/medieval-s...-HWo4jBDrwLTVM

    p.s. I had another look at mgr Aleksic's catalogue. 33 of 50 documented swords from Croatia have dimensions of two handed swords. Thank you for helping me make the effort to increase my knowledge about the subject. I really should check the data on Bosnia and Hungary too
    Last edited by Rad; August 10, 2020 at 01:40 PM. Reason: It's not 49 swords, it's 50.

  3. #63
    Wallachian's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - FACTION PREVIEW: Tsardom of Serbia (Complete overhaul)

    Yes, we are aware that medieval fighting formations did not consist solely of soldiers with one single weapon. As mentioned there may be a shared two-handed sword unit for Serbia and other Balkan factions at one point. But for the moment if you want to enjoy such a unit you will have to play with the Western factions that do have them.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Tsardoms Total War - FACTION PREVIEW: Tsardom of Serbia (Complete overhaul)

    Unfortunately, I won't be playing Tsardoms. I simply don't have the time for it. I am interested in helping out as much as I can, though. It's my favorite era of history and I have accumulated a lot of information about it over the years.

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