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Thread: Guess who's out of touch with reality?

  1. #1

    Default Guess who's out of touch with reality?

    I'm surprised they published this on the Guardian, but nonetheless:
    Think Republicans are disconnected from reality? It's even worse among liberals

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...idApp_Facebook
    In a surprising new national survey, members of each major American political party were asked what they imagined to be the beliefs held by members of the other. The survey asked Democrats: “How many Republicans believe that racism is still a problem in America today?” Democrats guessed 50%. It’s actually 79%. The survey asked Republicans how many Democrats believe “most police are bad people”. Republicans estimated half; it’s really 15%.
    The survey, published by the thinktank More in Common as part of its Hidden Tribes of America project, was based on a sample of more than 2,000 people. One of the study’s findings: the wilder a person’s guess as to what the other party is thinking, the more likely they are to also personally disparage members of the opposite party as mean, selfish or bad. Not only do the two parties diverge on a great many issues, they also disagree on what they disagree on.


    This much we might guess. But what’s startling is the further finding that higher education does not improve a person’s perceptions – and sometimes even hurts it. In their survey answers, highly educated Republicans were no more accurate in their ideas about Democratic opinion than poorly educated Republicans. For Democrats, the education effect was even worse: the more educated a Democrat is, according to the study, the less he or she understands the Republican worldview.

    This effect,” the report says, “is so strong that Democrats without a high school diploma are three times more accurate than those with a postgraduate degree.” And the more politically engaged a person is, the greater the distortion.

    What could be going on? Bubble-ism, the report suggests. Even more than their Republican counterparts, highly educated Democrats tend to live in exclusively Democratic enclaves. The more they report “almost all my friends hold the same political views”, the worse their guesses on what Republicans think.

    So do they believe in sticking with their own? No. When asked in a Pew survey whether it’s important to live in a place “where most people share my political views”, half of conservatives and only a third of liberals agreed. Although in principle more tolerant of political diversity, highly educated – and mostly urban – Democrats live, ironically, with less of it.

    Something besides city living may be going on. Particularly among highly engaged Democrats, I think many are in grief. The recent losses have been hard to absorb: the presidency. The supreme court. The Senate. A majority of governorships. And of states in which the governor and both houses of the state legislatures are controlled by the same party, 22 are Republican and 14 Democratic. Withdrawal from the Paris agreement. Neil Gorsuch. Voter suppression. Children in cages. The future of the party highly unclear. Democrats are now the ones who feel like strangers in their own land.
    In the face of loss or personal crisis – whether a pink slip, a medical issue or political defeat – most of us turn inward toward what feels self-confirming, comforting and safe. During the Great Depression, and more recently in the aftermath of the 2008 crash, those who had lost homes and jobs tended to volunteer less, visit less and generally retreat from the world, sometimes thereby making a bad situation worse. Today’s wounded warriors of the left – including many women and voters of color who have struggled mightily and fear their progress is in danger of going up in smoke – may feel a similar need for the familiar.
    Being home surely restores one’s spirits. But in the long run, staying home leads to trouble. It keeps the left from knowing what it needs to know, good news and bad. It further marginalizes it. After all, in the heat of battle, the most brilliant generals are not those who insult the enemy from inside their own tent. It is those who most astutely gauge the troop count, the terrain and quirks of the opposing general.

    In peacetime, too, in this political moment, the best approach is to learn about what is sometimes the alternative truth in which Fox News watchers live, the class and cultural grievances it appeals to and amplifies, and to understand, as one keeps listening, a curiously hidden moderation in substance and tone.
    For starters, Democrats can recognize pieces of common ground where they already exist. For my 2016 book, Strangers in Their Own Land: Anger and Mourning on the American Right, I studied enthusiastic backers of Donald Trump in Louisiana – the last place on earth a Democrat might look for common ground.
    But one man I talked with – someone raised on a sugar plantation, retired from a life-long career in oil, a proud member of the Louisiana Tea Party and a Trump supporter – grinned broadly at the mention of Bernie Sanders. “Free college? Free medical care? How yawl going to pay for that? He’s a pie in the sky guy,” he said. “But he’s a good man, Uncle Bernie.” Although an oil worker, he was a fan of clean energy, and liked the idea of a Manhattan Project to implement it.
    Among Republicans, he isn’t alone. Despite the president’s denial of the climate crisis, national polls recently conducted by researchers at Yale, Stanford and Monmouth Universities show that a majority of voters in both parties now agree on many actions to mitigate it.

    Should the US “set strict carbon dioxide emission limits on existing coal-fired power plants to reduce global warming and improve public heath”, Yale asked, even if “the cost of electricity to consumers and companies would likely increase”? Eighty-seven per cent of Democrats and 56% of Republicans answered yes.
    “Should the US participate in the Paris climate accord and reduce greenhouse gas emissions regardless of what other countries do?” A majority of voters in both parties said yes.
    A coalition of college Republican clubs recently endorsed a tax on carbon pollution.
    There are other promising signs of middle ground. In response to the violence and death in Charlottesville, Virginia, big donors to the feuding parties, George Soros and David Koch, jointly funded the After Charlottesville Project to curb online calls to violence. The New York congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez and the Texas senator Ted Cruz have co-sponsored a congressional bill preventing lawmakers from entering lucrative second careers as corporate lobbyists. Conservatives and liberals united to push for ex-felons in Florida to win the right to vote in 2018, and, this year to push modest but significant reform of our draconian criminal justice laws through Congress.
    Such cross-party diplomats have not misjudged their opposite number – such a good lesson for us all.
    When Martin Luther King marched from Selma to Montgomery, his fellow marchers included a priest, a nun, two rabbis, a Greek Orthodox archbishop and clergy of many Protestant denominations, black and white. In the long run, major political change virtually always requires rising up to cross a bridge – an urgently needed model for the Democratic party itself today.
    I'd personally add that Russiagating has de-facto prevented the urban, highly educated liberal to make a honest analysis of their defeat, instead allowing to further cement their factually wrong views of what's going on in the world. If Brexit/Trump could be blamed on Russia, then the liberal elite is still right about everything and its rightful victory has been only stolen. Unable to make an intellectually valid assessment, they simply segregated themselves in their bubble of disinformation, heavily promoted by main channel of information. As a result, not only the urban highly educated liberal doesn't understand the other side, but simply thinks it's a bunch of bad people, thus it doesn't need to be understood at all; just removed and dismissed.

    So, what do you think went wrong with the ''most educated generation of all times'' that they are also the most out of touch?

  2. #2
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Guess who's out of touch with reality?

    Think Republicans are disconnected from reality? It's even worse among liberals
    Umm not sure what you point is the overall summary (tables 1 and 2)

    D perception gap is 19

    R perception gap is 27

    Table 4 the extremes of both parties have identical perception gaps

    Table 7 It not till post grad that Dem s perception gap is higher but given the error bars (std dev but could be CI) they are practically the same.

    So who is out of touch with reality Basil?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Guess who's out of touch with reality?

    Your post considering it misses the point completely and that's simply because it gives you a conclusion you don't like.

    And that's nothing considering the ''blame the messenger'' argument you just did.

  4. #4
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Guess who's out of touch with reality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Your post considering it misses the point completely and that's simply because it gives you a conclusion you don't like.

    And that's nothing considering the ''blame the messenger'' argument you just did.
    I not blaming the messenger because I don't understand the message.

    "Think Republicans are disconnected from reality? It's even worse among liberals"


    I don't see that in the data.

    "I'd personally add that Russiagating has de-facto prevented the urban, highly educated liberal to make a honest analysis of their defeat, instead allowing to further cement their factually wrong views of what's going on in the world. If Brexit/Trump could be blamed on Russia, then the liberal elite is still right about everything and its rightful victory has been only stolen. Unable to make an intellectually valid assessment, they simply segregated themselves in their bubble of disinformation, heavily promoted by main channel of information. As a result, not only the urban highly educated liberal doesn't understand the other side, but simply thinks it's a bunch of bad people, thus it doesn't need to be understood at all; just removed and dismissed."

    You might add that but that again is not a particular point of the presented and so you just can't add it.

    " So, what do you think went wrong with the ''most educated generation of all times'' that they are also the most out of touch? "

    On balance you see to be actually just responding to the Guardian Headline and the data at its source. Where did you dig "most educated Generation" and besides to make a meaningful comment you would need time series data anyway.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  5. #5
    Kritias's Avatar Petite bourgeois
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    Default Re: Guess who's out of touch with reality?

    Aside from the click-bait title, what's having you worked up and excited exactly? Let's dissect this article to see what it says.

    n a surprising new national survey, members of each major American political party were asked what they imagined to be the beliefs held by members of the other. The survey asked Democrats: “How many Republicans believe that racism is still a problem in America today?” Democrats guessed 50%. It’s actually 79%. The survey asked Republicans how many Democrats believe “most police are bad people”. Republicans estimated half; it’s really 15%.
    So democrats believe that about 29% less Republicans don't believe that racism is still a problem, while Republicans believe that an additional 35% percent of Democrats believe that most policemen are bad people. From the two questions in juxtaposition it doesn't add up that Democrats are out of touch with reality; it adds up that Democrats mischaracterize their opposition less than the Republicans do.

    The survey, published by the thinktank More in Common as part of its Hidden Tribes of America project, was based on a sample of more than 2,000 people. One of the studyÂ’s findings: the wilder a personÂ’s guess as to what the other party is thinking, the more likely they are to also personally disparage members of the opposite party as mean, selfish or bad. Not only do the two parties diverge on a great many issues, they also disagree on what they disagree on.
    I've put the important part in bold. Moving on.

    What could be going on? Bubble-ism, the report suggests. Even more than their Republican counterparts, highly educated Democrats tend to live in exclusively Democratic enclaves. The more they report “almost all my friends hold the same political views”, the worse their guesses on what Republicans think.
    Hmmm. Could this bubbleism be dependent on the right wing media that appear more hardliners than the average republican voter? If the secluded highly educated Democrats mischaracterize their opponents more than the non-highly educated Democrats because of a lack of republican social network around them, then where do they base their ideas of republicans if not on the right wing media? Also, note that the comparison is made between highly educated democrats and low-educated democrats, not democrats and republicans. In fact, nowhere in the article does the comparison between the democrats and republicans favor the last.

    Another piece from the study shows that adherence to the news, as I have recently pointed out, seems to lead to more misinformation and perception gaps. Here's the quote

    You might think that people who regularly read the news are more informed about their political opponents. In fact, the opposite is the case. We found that the more news people consumed, the larger their Perception Gap. People who said they read the news “most of the time” were nearly three times more distorted in their perceptions than those who said they read the news “only now and then.” We can’t prove that one causes the other, but these results suggest that rather than making Americans better informed, media coverage is now feeding our misperceptions.
    And take this in combination with table 1 & 2 where the Republican perception gap is on overall greater than the Democrat perception gap, we begin to have a clearer image what types of media outlets create the most disinformation. Again, from the study

    But not every media outlet is the same. We identified how specific news sources are associated with varying levels of distorted understanding in their audiences. Some news sources are associated with larger Perception Gaps, in particular Breitbart, Drudge Report and popular talk radio programs such as Sean Hannity and Rush Limbaugh. But large Perception Gaps are also associated with liberal sources such as Huffington Post and the Daily Kos. Only one media source is associated with better understanding other AmericansÂ’ views: the traditional television networks of ABC, NBC and CBS. Overall, these findings suggest that media is adding to a polarization ecosystem that is driving Americans apart.
    In terms of education, I'd really like to see what kind of degrees the people under question had. There's this obvious bias that every degree leads to better political understanding and that's not the case. In fact, in degrees so time-investing and micro-specializing its very difficult. An example would be medicine - the time invested to finish medical school alone and the necessity of focused, one-track studying will hardly equip one to understand political philosophy.

    Another important issue is the online trolls and general online misinformation. As the study shows the people who post political activities online come in contact with types of commentators who reinforce the perception gap. Now, why is that if not to say that trolls play a role in how disengaged people are with the opposition and that the debate is often hijacked by trolls starting flame wars and disinformation?

    Social media platforms provide us a personalized way to receive news and commentary from anyone and everyone with whom we are connected. In theory, this could mean that users see a cross section of their community's political views, representing the full range of perspectives within their network. Unfortunately, our study's findings paint a less encouraging picture. First, only 26% of American report sharing social media posts about politics. Second, these Americans have higher Perception Gaps than the national average. While those who do not post on social media have an average Perception Gap of 18, those who do post on social media have an average Perception Gap of 29. The political content we see on social media is therefore disproportionately from people with a more distorted understanding of the other side, further adding to the problem.
    Lastly, the perception gap is more important when it's viewed on the bad intentions barometer. There, the republicans believe the democrats are mostly caring (31 to 19 from democrats), but less honest (24 to 26) and less reasonable (17 to 20) but the differences are so minute that don't seem statistically important. On the bad traits, brainwashed (86 to 88), hateful (84 to 87) and racist (71 to 89), the democrats seem to have statistical importance only in believing that the republicans are more racist than the republicans think the democrats to be. From this table, it seems that -surprise, surprise- there are more democrats blaming republicans for racism than the other way around. Otherwise, the two groups seem pretty unison in how they view each other.

    So, again - what's up with this thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    I'd personally add that Russiagating has de-facto prevented the urban, highly educated liberal to make a honest analysis of their defeat, instead allowing to further cement their factually wrong views of what's going on in the world. If Brexit/Trump could be blamed on Russia, then the liberal elite is still right about everything and its rightful victory has been only stolen. Unable to make an intellectually valid assessment, they simply segregated themselves in their bubble of disinformation, heavily promoted by main channel of information. As a result, not only the urban highly educated liberal doesn't understand the other side, but simply thinks it's a bunch of bad people, thus it doesn't need to be understood at all; just removed and dismissed.


    Explain this sentence. Particularly the 'remove' part. Are you suggesting something?
    Last edited by Kritias; July 29, 2019 at 12:43 PM. Reason: Caught something else that I needed to throw in, surry.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Guess who's out of touch with reality?

    The report includes all comparisons. The one that stands out, unlike the others is that Democrats with high school diploma are more likely to understand the Republican way of thinking than the highly educated one, meaning that education makes you more, not less out of touch with reality. And that is really bad. The rest are not that important. However, Democrat disparaging of Republican voters is due to Democrat self-inflicted bubble-ism.

    As for the remove and dismissed: if highly educated Democrats think Republicans are a bunch of Nazis, then it's obvious that the outcome is that the former will demand that the latter is ostracized; which is exactly what's going on. There's a strong pressure from urban upper class, mostly, white liberals to censor conservatives in tech, media, and universities. Ironically that will make Democrats even more out of touch with Rebublicans.

  7. #7
    Kritias's Avatar Petite bourgeois
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    Default Re: Guess who's out of touch with reality?

    You miss that republicans, highly educated or not, mischaracterize democrats to a greater degree. For some reason you skipped that comparison on the first paragraph of the link you provided. The research says that among high-schooled and college-schooled democrats the latter tend to mischaracterize more. So in a very quick graph:

    Most to least likely to misunderstand
    1) Republicans
    2) College-schooled democrats
    3) High-schooled democrats

    Thinking someone more racist doesn't equal thinking that they are Nazis. And on the same level, republicans would assume more than the democrats that their opposition are traitors. And that's what I see happening. In fact that's what you've been calling democrats in dozens a day threads.

    What's your point exactly?
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  8. #8

    Default Re: Guess who's out of touch with reality?

    This much we might guess. But what’s startling is the further finding that higher education does not improve a person’s perceptions – and sometimes even hurts it. In their survey answers, highly educated Republicans were no more accurate in their ideas about Democratic opinion than poorly educated Republicans. For Democrats, the education effect was even worse: the more educated a Democrat is, according to the study, the less he or she understands the Republican worldview.
    The effect is worse in Democrats.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Guess who's out of touch with reality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kritias View Post
    You miss that republicans, highly educated or not, mischaracterize democrats to a greater degree. For some reason you skipped that comparison on the first paragraph of the link you provided. The research says that among high-schooled and college-schooled democrats the latter tend to mischaracterize more. So in a very quick graph:

    Most to least likely to misunderstand
    1) Republicans
    2) College-schooled democrats
    3) High-schooled democrats

    Thinking someone more racist doesn't equal thinking that they are Nazis. And on the same level, republicans would assume more than the democrats that their opposition are traitors. And that's what I see happening. In fact that's what you've been calling democrats in dozens a day threads.

    What's your point exactly?
    Depends on the segment:



    The point being, the most likely to mischaracterize among Republicans are the low educated ones. That is the reverse of what happens among Democrats. You'd expect education to decrease prejudice, while it actually increases. Meaning it should be disbanded because it's promoting fraudolent views.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; July 31, 2019 at 03:11 AM.

  10. #10
    Kritias's Avatar Petite bourgeois
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    Default Re: Guess who's out of touch with reality?

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Depends on the segment:



    The point being, the most likely to mischaracterize among Republicans are the low educated ones. That is the reverse of what happens among Democrats. You'd expect education to decrease prejudice, while it actually increases. Meaning it should be disbanded because it's promoting fraudolent views.
    Take a look at the graph again. Republicans mischaracterize more until the 4-year college mark; that's hardly low educated. The only category where democrats mischaracterize more is after graduation, and here they don't account the obvious feedback-loop effect of having republicans mischaracterizing you for the entirety of college. So, no.

    So, on top of getting rid of immigrants, making liberals liable for prosecutions for immigrant crime, you also want to disband the educational system?

    Das not gut.
    Under the valued patronage of Abdülmecid I

  11. #11

    Default Re: Guess who's out of touch with reality?

    The most likely to mischaracterize among Republicans are in order:
    -no HS
    -some college
    -post grad

    Some college->didn't finish it. I'd say the distribution can be decently represented by an average.

    For Dems there's a clear trend:
    The more you get educated, the less likely you are to understand Republicans.
    Only ''some college'' is more or less the same of HS graduate. The rest increase with education.

    And my girlfriend is an immigrant technically, so I clearly don't want to get rid of her. If education however equates to ideological brainwashing, then it's worthless.

  12. #12
    CommodusIV's Avatar Teutonic Coronavirus
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    Default Re: Guess who's out of touch with reality?

    Seems to me that the truth of the article and indeed, the thread in general, is that both sides are commonly quite out of touch with reality and that the agenda in the thread ironically falls into the very thing the research is warning against. Both sides have strong negatives and purely on the basis of the title, it is in fact republicans who are more out of touch on average, with democrats contending in the higher education levels. That is grounds to make a case for biased educational institutions, not the blanket 'aha' assertion of 'look, see, democrats are out of touch more than republicans!"

    Frankly, I would say it's less about everyone being out of touch with reality and more a case of either a) people just deliberately using what benefits them without even trying to go for a wider picture view beyond their agendas and b) the rest of the problematic individuals following along with case a.

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