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Thread: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

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    Default No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    The battle of Kursk is weird, mostly because the generals on both sides got to write the history and no one thought about challenging them for decades. But now that has largely happened, and most facts are on the table. Both sides misrepresented the battle a lot. I'll give you a run-down through my 11 reasons why in my opinion the often heard claim that "Unternehmen Zitadelle" was a mistake, does not hold up.

    1: Arguing as general hindsight is vapid – you either build you case based on the situation as it was known to the parties involved, or you’re simply building a castle in the sky.
    Instead of saying: HAHAH! They lost, so it DEFINITELY was a mistake, you need to assess the risks and compare them to the possible profit.

    Example: The Sichelschnitt in the battle of France.
    Risk: Allied planes spotting and then bombing the German attack through the Ardennes. If they do, we’re screwed.
    Profit: If they don’t, we’ll conquer France.

    Was the German Sichelschnitt in 1941 a mistake? If it had failed, every armchair general and historian today would say yes.

    In "Unternehmen Zitadelle", the German losses were moderate (more on that later) and their goals mostly defensive. The goals were failed, but a K/D ratio of roughly 7:1 was much more favourable to the Germans than at other encounters at this stage of the war.
    The third Reich arguably had far less to lose at this stage of the war than they did in France, and the risks were probably less. So how can Zitadelle then be a mistake?

    2: A failure/defeat doesn’t automatically mean it was a mistake. It only becomes one if you can prove there was a viable alternative to the action taken. What alternative was there to Unternehmen Zitadelle?
    The ones known to me:
    A) A frontal attack on the salient, rather than on the flanks. Apparently some German generals thought that to be a better idea. I honestly don't.
    B) Hitler was generally in favour of smaller offensives. With the thorn in their side that was the Kursk salient, Germany didn't really have the ability to do so. Nor was there any other objective on the eastern front at that point that could be seen as more important. With a fortress such as the Kursk salient, small offensives were pointless. They had to either go big or go home.
    Hitler understood that.
    C) "Defense" - whatever that's supposed to mean. Mostly argued for in modern times without really explaining how. There are several principles and circumstances, however, that make that impossible. Just as importantly this argument is directly contradicted by the fact that the Unternehmen Zitadelle, though a large offensive, had almost exclusively defensive goals. It was an extension of manoeuvre defense.

    3: You cannot simply redefine the ultimate objective – If the task of person X was to build a bridge, but he didn’t have enough bricks to do so, calling it a mistake that he didn’t build a house with them is simply false, since building that house wasn't what wanted to do.
    In this case, the goal of the German commanders wasn’t to just delay the Untergang of the Third Reich, it was to WIN the war. When this is considered, the cost benefit analysis changes immediately in favour of Zitadelle NOT having been a mistake. Even though a success of Unternehmen Zitadelle was unlikely, that small chance of success was still better than no chance of success.

    4: A passive strategy does not win the war - especially not when the German war economy is compared to the Allied one, and the strategic situation for the axis becoming direr by the day.
    The Germans KNEW that another front in Italy, especially the landing in Sicily, and an invasion of France were forthcoming. Sicily played a major role regarding the German considerations for Unternehmen Zitadelle BUT it was not the reason why further German offensives in the battle of Kursk were called off. By that time, other forces had already been allocated to that theatre, so the troops at Kursk weren't needed for that, and weren't redeployed there. - More on that later.

    5: Defense doesn’t mean the defender has it easier. The maxim “the best defense is a good offense” is a viable and time tested one long before WWII. In manoeuvre warfare however, that principle goes doubly. When dealing with a salient, it goes quadruply.

    The Soviet salient at Kursk gave them an excellent staging point for future offensives. The Soviets had the advantage of inner lines. German units, if on the defensive, would’ve had farther distances separating them and thus a much harder time supporting each other than they did attacking.
    The very lopsided battle at Prokhorovka (only 5 total German tank losses vs. hundreds on the Soviet side) happened due to the Germans FORCING battle where it suited them. The battle was strictly speaking an offensive action taken by the Soviets against waiting Germans, and without question a big mistake on the Soviet part. But it was undertaken because the Soviets felt pressured to do so. The same fact applies to the battle of Kursk as a whole for the German side. The Soviets knew the Germans would feel pressed to attack them there - Hence the very significant, and impressive efforts undertaken by them to fortify the salient. They forced the battle of Kursk as a whole and got the Germans to attack. The Germans on the other hand forced the battle of Prokhorovka in a similar fashion, though it seemed to have come as a surprise.
    The k/D ratio of roughly 40:1 was simply impossible under any other circumstances.

    6: It was NOT HITLER who wanted the offensive, but most German Generals, especially Manstein and Model. Have you heard their names before?
    Oh right: Those are the German generals who were generally held to be the experts at maneuver defense!

    So it is already quite ironic that the very people you’d want to lead the defense actually favoured an attack in this situation! But the claim “they should’ve done maneuver defense instead of the offensive” is downright disproven once you consider their motivations and their approach.

    Manstein wanted Zitadelle under all circumstances – even at the price of sacrificing the strategically vital Donbass to the Soviets. It was his brainchild and his main complaints would be that it wasn’t launched earlier, and that he wasn’t allowed to finish it. However, you should take his claims of a “lost victory” with more than just one grain of salt - and he would later change his story to the total opposite. He and Guderian would after the war claim to have opposed the plan.
    Guderians opposition is afaik doubtable (he lies frequently in his memoirs too) but possible – Manstein on the other hand has been proven to be a complete liar in this (and many other) regard - and is contradicted amongst others by his own war diary that he didn't intend to publicise to the masses.

    Model on the other hand hoped for an offensive by the Soviet forces, so that he would be able to counterattack “aus der Nachhand”. I.e. have the offensive start as maneuver defense – the Soviets, however, wanted to do the same thing and quite content to wait the Germans out. Model thus came to realise they would have to attack first.

    Unternehmen Zitadelle was essentially a continuation of maneuver defense.
    ALL GOALS were essentially defensive, and aimed at reducing the front, destroying those Soviet forces that would otherwise attack later, and free German troops for other operations.

    7: The long run-up had the German generals grow more and more cautious/pessimistic regarding the prospects of the offensive, as the Soviet build-up in the area continued. Manstein would claim they could’ve easily defeated it in March. This is highly unlikely, given they would’ve more likely drowned in a sea of mud.
    The claim that Hitler wanted the Germans to wait for Tigers and Panthers is mostly, if not completely false.
    The delay was mostly due to other reasons. Only the last few weeks of that delay could potentially be attributed to that. Whether or not attacking those few days earlier would’ve made the German attack more successful or less is debatable. On one hand, they encountered stronger defences and the new tanks were prone to frequent breakdowns and Marders & Panzer IV's were doing the same job just as well at Prokhorovka, but the newer tanks were technically superior in the tactical encounters, and the Soviet defensive lines were pretty much already set by this point. It wasn’t so much Guderian pointing at the technical superiority of the new tanks that settled the argument in favour of a delay, but Model stating his troops weren’t ready yet.

    But in spite of their growing scepticism, NONE of the generals who’d been for it in the beginning wanted to my knowledge abandon the plan; nor did Hitler, even though he was likely the one who was the most freaked out:
    Quote Originally Posted by Hitler according to Heinz Guderian in his memoirs
    „Sie haben ganz recht. Mir ist bei dem Gedanken an diesen Angriff auch immer ganz mulmig im Bauch.“

    “You are completely right. I also always get an uneasy feeling in my stomach, whenever I think of this attack.”
    Hitler, replying to Guderian on May 10th 1943, when the latter was trying to talk him out of the offensive - according to Guderian’s memoirs.
    To summarise that point: Model and Manstein stayed fast and wanted the offensive – even though they knew there would be problems. Hitler knew there would be problems, and saw no other options other than small scale offensives. Which, given the strong Russian defences, were even less viable. The axis had to either go big or go home.
    Many other German generals, such as Kurt Zeitzler (chief of the army general staff) and Günther von Kluge (commander of the army group centre) were also firmly in favour of it.

    Then we have Hitler, who, according to Guderian was unsure:
    Quote Originally Posted by Guderian post war as quoted by historian Roman Töppel
    Die Offensive auf Kursk entsprach nicht einem Plan Hitlers. Dieser hatte vielmehr die größten Bedenken. Er hat leider dem Drängen Zeitzlers nachgegeben, der hoffte, durch einen Angriff die verloren gegangene Initiative im Osten wiedererlangen zu können.

    The offensive against Kursk did not correspond to a plan by Hitler. He was rather the one with the biggest doubts. He sadly gave in to Zeitzler’s pressure, who hoped to regain the lost initiative in the east through an attack.
    Guderian’s claims also have to be taken with a grain of salt, but mostly when his own role and Zeitzler’s are concerned (the two were rivals). He had, however, no particular reason to defend Hitler, and he stayed consistent in that regard.

    Even if we believe Guderian to have been against the offensive (though he was the one to offer the Tigers and Panthers), he’s remarkably silent when it comes to offering an alternative.

    The alternative Hitler considered according to Guderian and others was a frontal assault on the salient, rather than one against the flanks. That attack would’ve been easier, but I personally can understand why they favoured flanking attacks. The frontal attack is honestly rather pointless and would've had a wide range of further problems.

    But most German generals had a lot of time to think about it, were well aware of the Soviet build-up of forces, and yet remained in favour of the offensive.

    8: Those assuming a German defensive approach would have been more likely to succeed, fail to consider many factors. The initiative would’ve been with the Soviets, the Germans would’ve had a much harder time to concentrate their forces for the counterattack necessary in manoeuvre defence, as once again, the Germans would’ve had the outer lines, not the inner lines, and the Soviets would at least initially forced battle on their terms. This is why the Germans were so obsessed with regaining the initiative in the first place.

    But even more damning is the fact that the defensive approach had already been tried. Model hoped for a Soviet attack, so that he could counter attack. The Soviets simply waited them out. Time was clearly running in their favour. They were still capable of attacking elsewhere, whereas the Germans were not. And any attack elsewhere could only be repelled by weakening those very forced that were in that sector.

    It is extremely unlikely that the Soviets would’ve simply run out of patience and attacked exactly there. Instead, they would’ve done, what they had done to great success many times both before, during and after Kursk. Attacking elsewhere, and force the Germans to withdraw forces from that sector to others. The most likely attack would’ve been the one that ended Unternehmen Zitadelle: No, not the allied landings on sicily – no German troops from the battle of Kursk were relocated there. The Donez-Mius offensive. The Germans were forced to stop their offensive at the Kursk salient to beat the Soviets back. Meanwhile, the Soviets started their counter offensives Kutuzov and Rumyantsev, and the salient was effectively no more. When the Germans redeployed once again to counter those, the Soviets used that opportunity to conquer the Donbass one final time.

    9: The German offensive cannot be called a total failure.
    Don’t get me wrong: The often heard claim, also started by German generals, that their victory was imminent, is false. Some generals claimed so due to wanting to again, portray themselves as the smart ones and blame everything on Hitler. Others simply weren’t that well informed. One German general thought he’d achieved a total breakthrough, when in actuality, he had only broken through the first two lines.

    I also don’t think a German victory was ever realistic. A continued offensive could have possibly led to a defeat (speculation), and would definitely have come at the cost of the Donbass (which was lost regardless, but a few weeks later).

    Still: The Soviet losses were very high, compared to the Germans. And whilst yes, they were much more able to absorb those losses, the overall K/D ratio of roughly 7:1 was far above the average that could be expected against an enemy who by now had become battle-hardened. The German claims (once again by Manstein) regarding the third battle of Kharkov were a complete lie.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Claim: 70.000 fighting against 8x as many Soviets. Wikipedia still believes them.
    Reality: 280000 Germans in the sector, 130000 of which were in the attacking force, against 210000 that were overextended and exhausted.


    The victories that had happened earlier in the war, were simply no longer achievable, even though the Soviets were still doing some mistakes. Nor would the Soviets have become weaker if they had waited.
    So I would argue the Unternehmen Zitadelle to have had a rather “good” outcome, when the circumstances are considered.

    They would not have been able to fight the battle under equally favourable circumstances, had the attacks been carried out by the Soviets, at a location and time of their choosing.
    In defensive battles such as that of the Seelower Höhen or Hürtgen forest, Germany was unable to get a better K/D-ratio than 3:1. And whilst the German army was very much weakened at this point, they also had no comparable natural obstacles in the southern and central area, apart from the river Dniepr much further west, which would've meant giving up on a lot of industrially vital territory that'd strengthen the Soviet Union significantly whilst no longer benefitting the Germans.

    10: The battle of Kursk is in so far even a bit bizarre, in that even some German generals, such as Guderian and Mellenthin depict them as having been worse than they were (Roman Töppel, in his book “Kursk 1943: Die größte Schlacht des Zweiten Weltkriegs” goes through many reasons why their claims are simply false). But the Germans weren’t bled dry by the battle, even though so many made that claim. What makes Kursk so weird in a historiographical context, is that it’s history was for decades written by those responsible for it on both sides. And it took some decades on both sides before people thought about verifying their claims.

    11: Finally: It is of course speculative when thinking about what would've happened, if the Germans hadn't attacked. But not even that speculative.
    I think the only real alternative to an attack would have been a large scale withdrawal to the Dniepr river. This would have come at the cost of losing what were arguably the richest lands in the Soviet Union: Kharkov and the Donbass. This is what happened historically, and I see no way that the Germans could have prevented it. Every time the Germans reallocated their reserves to counter a Soviet offensive, the Soviet would simply use that to launch another offensive elsewhere. The Soviets were masters at that, and the most famous example of that is likely operation Bagration. To expect a different course on the other hand is a bit far fetched imo. If you see it differently, tell me how and why.


    TL;DR: The Germans were doomed either way, they fared much better in their offensive than is often believed, they were much worse at defense than people often believe, and the attack was their way of trying to defend.

    Ergo: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a mistake.



    There were a whole range of myths surrounding Kursk that I thought about adressing (many lies by those responsible on both sides, who inexplicably weren't challenged at all even though archives on both sides disprove them), but that would be too much.
    Once again I'd recommend Roman Töppel, who has focused a lot on this specific battle.

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    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    You forgot the most important argument of all: The soviets knew EVERYTHING the Germans were planing and were able to build around that information. You can plan the best offensive in history, if the enemy knows you are coming and has time to prepare you are doomed to failure.

    The Germans lost the war the day enigma was broken. It's impossible to win when the other team has fog of war cheats. What really boggles me is that nobody in the german intelligence community even conceived of the notion that Enigma might be cracked, even though they knew the allies had captured working devices as soon as 1939.
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    Cookiegod's Avatar CIVUS DIVUS EX CLIBANO
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    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    True, there are rumours of Britain warning the Soviets and a German spying for the Soviets warning them through Switzerland, but Töppel said he couldn't verify them and the Soviets knew about those German forces regardless.

    The Germans didn't try to hide them, and the Tiger tank was also already known to the Soviets. One of them had already been captured at, I think, Leningrad and been tested on?

    Both sides knew this was an obvious place to attack and made their preparations. Unlike with the later operation Bagration, the Germans weren't surprised by the red army forces, nor was there truly a way to make that attack a surprise.

    The Soviets didn't know everything goal related. I am inclined to believe them that the assumed Zitadelle to be part of an even greater offensive, even though this wasn't the case.

    But yeah, Enigma hurt the Germans lots of times, and looking back, their complete faith in Enigma was rather foolish.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
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    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    Ratios based on long know grossly wrong kill claims. https://panzerworld.com/german-tank-...attle-of-kursk

    The rest of the opinions expressed are of even less worth.

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    Cookiegod's Avatar CIVUS DIVUS EX CLIBANO
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    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    Hanny, what's really funny is that I'm in total agreement with the article you linked and completely aware of the statistics represented there, and even more of them.
    German kill losses can't be trusted. The German High command generally estimated the losses to be 50% exaggerated and wasn't far off in that regard. In Kursk, an exaggeration of 30-40% is the likely estimate.

    What's more, their own losses are embellished, which is why they only include TOTAL write-offs.
    This is why the ONLY number to Prokhorovka I published were the 5 TOTAL losses. The Germans held the field, and were, unlike the Soviets, able to recover their own damaged vehicles.

    Furthermore, the German sources are rather picky compared to the Soviet ones: The Soviet light tank T-60, which was armed with a 20mm machinegun, is always included. The German Pz-II, even though it had the exact same role and even the exact same calibre, not. The Su-76 selfpropelled gun, mostly used by the Soviets against infantry, not against tanks, is also always included. Many German "Selbstfahrlafetten", such as the Marder III, which was used almost exclusively for tank combat, was not. The exact numbers of captured "Beutepanzer" are also not known, only that they existed.

    However, the Soviets doctored their numbers as well, and even Russian historians are still imbued by that tradition - however, the losses they list have continually increased over the years.

    The Russian historian Valeriy Zamulin is according to Roman Töppel the most trustworthy source on Kursk, and it's his numbers he and I are basing our claims on. Soviet losses at Prokhorovka are also documented by the Soviet accounts on how there were hundreds of tanks on the Prokhorovka battlefield. Since the Germans had held the field, since there weren't significant battles after Prokhorovka in that sector before the Germans withdrew orderly, those tanks must have been in the vast majority Soviet.

    And yes, his numbers are identical to those presented in the link you showed. 6064 tanks. I didn't argue against them, I simply didn't include them, as they are shaky. Those were the numbers I had in my head. And 6064 tanks lost is a truly horrific number.

    The rest of the battle of Kursk was far less one-sided, and I talked a bit about that.
    I even went further than that and referenced the complete lie regarding the third battle of Kharkov which happened before Kursk and is often hyped by Wehraboo's.

    And yet, with very little thought or reading, you decided to throw that accusation regardless.

    Next time please do it right or not at all.

    EDIT: I thought about including some talk about numbers in a differen thread eventually, since they'd better fall under myths.
    Most numbers in Hanny's link hold up well - at least the ones I had previous knowledge to are identical.
    Those proficient in German can find some more on this here.
    Some juicy quotes:

    Quote Originally Posted by Roman Töppel
    So vermerkte Hauptmann Rolf Henning, der Kommandeur der II. Abteilung/schweres Panzerjägerregiment 656, in einem Erfahrungsbericht, dass die Zahl der von seinen Kompanien als vernichtet gemeldeten Feindpanzer fast immer zu hoch gewesen sei: „Dies konnte von mir einwandfrei in den Fällen festgestellt werden, wo am kommenden Tag der Angriff vorgetragen und die am Vortage abgeschossenen Feindpanzer tatsächlich gezählt werden konnten. Die angegebenen Zahlen waren um etwa 30 Prozent zu hoch und lassen sich dadurch erklären, dass verschiedene Besatzungen auf den gleichen Panzer schossen und beim Ausbrennen eines Feindpanzers jede Besatzung für sich den Erfolg meldete. Es besteht die begründete Annahme, dass diese Feststellung auch bei anderen Truppenteilen gemacht werden kann und somit der Führung ein falsches Bild über die Erfolge übermittelt wird.“

    A bit lazy here, so here's the gist: The commander of II. Abteilung/schweres Panzerjägerregiment 656 noted in his recollections, that the kills reported by his units were almost always too high. In those cases where he was able to count the enemy tanks destroyed in action in the previous day, the numbers reported proved to be roughly 30% too high. His explanation was that often several tanks were shooting at the same target, and if it went up in flames, both counted it as their kill.
    Quote Originally Posted by Roman Töppel
    Josef Brühl, der am Unternehmen „Zitadelle“ bei der Armeeabteilung Kempf als Fahrer eines Schützenpanzerwagens teilnahm, bemerkte: „Aus meiner naturgemäß begrenzten Soldaten-Sicht kann ich aber sagen, dass die Zählerei feindlicher Verluste immer wie die Weltmeister nach oben korrigiert wurde.“

    Josef Brühl, who participated in the operation Zitadelle in the army detachment Kempf as the driver of a "Schützenpanzerwagen", noted: "From my naturally limited soldier-perspective I can though say that the counting of enemy losses always were corrected up wildly."
    Roman Töppel also references to the OKH, which assumed the kill numbers to be 50% exaggerated, and to research, that the reported German kill numbers in the summer of 1943 are 40% off (His source: Zetterling/Frankson, Kursk 1943, S. 126 - haven't read it).
    Last edited by Cookiegod; July 26, 2019 at 04:46 AM.

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    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanny View Post
    The rest of the opinions expressed are of even less worth.
    You make a compelling case, but the OP has very large numbers, and perhaps even more importantly, content following each one.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


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    Cookiegod's Avatar CIVUS DIVUS EX CLIBANO
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    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    Wow. I thought I had a case, but you two masturdebators proved me so clearly wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
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    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    The Germans were doomed either way, they fared much better in their offensive than is often believed, they were much worse at defense than people often believe, and the attack was their way of trying to defend.
    True they were loosing. But I still think some kind of elastic defense would have been better. But only with vary different production since late 42. Can super weapons, and over heavy uber tanks and focus a solid hardware produced en mass. Sure the 262 and maybe the Arado 234. But a lot of the esoteric things even as prototypes were a waste of resources that could not afforded. Essentially Kurk is still trying to win after a point were the only viable German option was not loosing (the situation in the East would have better if Germany had not wasted the effort reinforcing Tunisia the cost in fuel, men and especially aircraft was very damaging).

    On point 11. I would still think the withdraw ( to the Dniepr line and loose the Crimea) a better option. It would shorten German logistics. If planed effectively it could open the way for potential counter strikes as the USSR moved. Seeing as the German would only hold the Donbass etc for about year was there really all that much to be lost and if it was wreaked on the way out as much as possible perhaps not a great USSR gain in the short run.
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    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    Conon, the Soviets wanted the Germans to attempt an "elastic defense" because that would mean more maneuvering. Which also means the Germans would expend more fuel and then be unable to respond to Soviet attacks. Moreover the Soviets had learned by 1943 that they could concentrate their forces, so while the Germans are attempting elastic defense, the Soviets can spam any point in the German line and break it in two. The only time "elastic defense" worked was in 3rd Kharkov and that had more to do with opportunism than planning.

    The Germans should have carried out a static defense, with fortified positions, lines to fall back on a small scale, and a huge reserve to throw at the Soviet forces when they were spent. The ideal position would really be to hold the Don because it gives the Germans lots of space. Naturally they couldn't give up the Crimea because it would allow the Soviets to use it as a platform for bombing the Romanian oil fields. The problem was that the German officer corps had not been trained in stellungskrieg since WW1 and were obsessed with bewegungskrieg. Well, not only that but they were also cowardly in carrying out operations, terrified of fighting attrition campaigns. What Hitler needed was to clone defensive, tough generals like Model, Kluge and Kesselring etc. Manstein had completely outlived his usefulness as the 1943 campaigns demonstrate. Overlooking Kursk, look at Manstein at Kiev, absolutely atrocious.

    On a somewhat unrelated note Citadel is misrepresented as a massive offensive which was intended as this all out pitched battle. Nothing could be further from the truth. The whole point was to bring down overwhelming force on the Kursk pocket and take away 500,000 troops from the Soviets. So in fact this was a lot closer to the Battle of Verdun, even in so far as nothing went according to plan. Now while the Soviets would lose 500,000 of their critical manpower (since the Soviet situation was critical in 1943), the Germans would be able to straighten their line for a more cost effective defense. Daring the Soviets to attack and lose more men, as had happened in Operation Mars. The reason the Germans did so well during Operation Mars is because they had ample time to prepare for said offensive operation.
    Last edited by Lord Oda Nobunaga; July 28, 2019 at 03:08 PM.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    I wasn't necessarily say elastic defense just defense close to Germany with shorter supply lines.. I really doubt Russia could muster something comparable to the late war CBO. They might replicate operation Tidel Wave - bad that did not turn out so well and a quick look shows Russia would have fighter gap.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    Then the Russians would still outlast the Germans.
    The Germans depended on the Ukrainian breadbasket, the manpower in the East for production and key resources that were mined in the Baltic States and in Ukraine.

    I would say at the very least the Germans would have to hold the Dnieper. But that would include the Crimea so that they could straighten the line. Defending Ukraine isn't easy but it is absolutely necessary.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    Then the Russians would still outlast the Germans.
    The Germans depended on the Ukrainian breadbasket, the manpower in the East for production and key resources that were mined in the Baltic States and in Ukraine.

    I would say at the very least the Germans would have to hold the Dnieper. But that would include the Crimea so that they could straighten the line. Defending Ukraine isn't easy but it is absolutely necessary.
    Well than were are back a square one it doesn't really matter if the German won or lost at Kursk. And can argue with that and no alternative really looks much better when you rake it over the coals. More or less unless Germany flipped the switch on true total war production and rationally and skipped silly wonder weapons etc. as soon as the 1941 invasion failed to take Leningrad and Moscow and the USSR showed it could muster a counter offensive. Add in convincing Japan to cut Pacific LL, and pulling out of North Africa as soon as Operation Torch started, than maybe in 1943 Germany might have had a chance to not loose maybe - but a thin one.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  13. #13

  14. #14

    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    Training and replacements. During kursk the SU Armoured field forces dropped by around a third, looks like Germany is doing good at attrition with its 4:1. However, in SU training schools there are 12600 tanks/crews awaiting completion of training, by end of years its 18,600. Germany had nothing like that. it needs 9:1 to break even.

    Germany went from 1400 men per KLM of front to 900 because of kursk and the SU counter kursk attack, ie it had less to defend more, and the SU was putting into the field manouver elements on a scale that gave them the ability to mass anywhere they chose, undetected in doing so as the LW had lost control of the airspace.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanny View Post
    Training and replacements. During kursk the SU Armoured field forces dropped by around a third, looks like Germany is doing good at attrition with its 4:1. However, in SU training schools there are 12600 tanks/crews awaiting completion of training, by end of years its 18,600. Germany had nothing like that. it needs 9:1 to break even.

    Germany went from 1400 men per KLM of front to 900 because of kursk and the SU counter kursk attack, ie it had less to defend more, and the SU was putting into the field manouver elements on a scale that gave them the ability to mass anywhere they chose, undetected in doing so as the LW had lost control of the airspace.
    Which essentially shows that given everything as it was there is likely no decision Germany could have made to change the arc of defeat. All its i dunno inflection points were in the past. As I said specifically by winter of 1941 as soon as a Germany failed to do Total War, Do as efficiently as the Allies, and focus on the Eastern front and avoid side show waste in North Africa it gets to to where it really was at Kursk.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Cookiegod's Avatar CIVUS DIVUS EX CLIBANO
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    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Which essentially shows that given everything as it was there is likely no decision Germany could have made to change the arc of defeat.
    That.
    Plus Hanny doesn't seem to know the difference between Unternehmen Zitadelle (5th to 16th July = 12 days) and the battle of Kursk as a whole (includes the Soviet counter offensives in the area from 12th July until August 23rd = 44 days).

    His 4:1 tank loss ratio claim is at best for Kursk as a whole, but probably builds on the entire decrease in combat worthy tanks of the German forces on the eastern front (1712 tanks) between July 5th and August 31st, vs. the Soviet losses at Zitadelle, Kutuzov and Rumyanzev combined (=6064 tanks) in that same time span - which gives us 3.5:1, but ignores e.g. the Soviet Donez-Mius offensive.

    Then one has to consider the fact that non-critical damages to a tank didn't result in a total loss for the side that held the field - which the Germans did during Unternehmen Zitadelle, but not during much of the Soviet counter offensives. The decrease in combat worthy tanks during Zitadelle wasn't always permanent, but rather led to them being sent back for repairs, and often happened without enemy contact (Panthers especially).

    Tanks lost due to Kutuzov and Rumyanzev on the other hand were for good, as they had to be left behind. The same goes vice versa for the Soviets. Many losses at Prokhorovka et al. were final, but for those sustained during the counteroffensives not necessarily.

    The German vs Soviet tank loss ratio during Unternehmen Zitadelle is calculated by Glantz in his book "The Battle of Kursk" as 1:8.
    I can also refer you once again to e.g. Roman Töppel, as to where the Germans got really hurt. Yep, the counter offensives.

    Which brings me to this:
    First of all: I'm not going to look at some low quality filming of a screen, if you can't even be bothered to say what for.
    Secondly: I recommend you watch that last video yourself. That guy is making the exact same argument as I am.

    It's not that the Germans lost, it's that the very capable Red army won.

    The Germans only had the choice whether or not to conduct their own offensive - they weren't asked by the STAVKA on whether or not the Red army should conduct theirs.

    You can also ask the German generals involved:
    Quote Originally Posted by Model before the attack, on June 20th 1943
    „Aufgrund der eigenen Stärke und des Kampfwertes der Angriffsverbände wird als günstigste Lageentwicklung im Frontbogen Orel die Durchführung des eigenen Angriffs angesehen. Er sichert die Initiative und ist weniger kräftezehrend als die Abwehr eines sich über eine unabsehbare Zeitdauer hinziehenden russischen Großangriffs“.

    Due to our own strength and the combat capabilities of the attack formations, the most ideal development in the Orel salient [to the north of Kursk] is being seen as the execution of our own attack. It will secure the initiative and saps our strength less than the defence against a "Russian" large scale offensive over an unknown period of time.

    - from Klink, "Das Gesetz des Handelns", p.325; translation by me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
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    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    Cookiegod, don't knock David Stahel, he is a pretty good historian. One of the better ones with regards to WW2.
    I think that Hanny is trying to draw attention to the over all strategic factors, that is to say the bigger picture.

    Actually I kinda like David Stahel more than David Glantz. Glantz is good for a larger view, but I find that Stahel does better with actual details while still framing it as part of the big picture.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

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    Cookiegod's Avatar CIVUS DIVUS EX CLIBANO
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    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    I'm not knocking anyone. I'm pointing out Hanny is using his numbers in a context they don't fit into. As if Unternehmen Zitadelle not happening would have meant no Soviet offensives happening.

    That, plus I cited Model's own words as to why the German offensive was desirable.

    I haven't read Stahel yet. I might give him a go at some point, when I have time - but I wasn't referring to him at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    From Socrates over Jesus to me it has always been the lot of any true visionary to be rejected by the reactionary bourgeoisie
    Qualis noncives pereo! #justiceforcookie #egalitéfraternitécookié #CLM

  19. #19
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    Start with the video I guess. His books about 1941 are great.

    Richard Harrison and Richard Overy are good too, because they use a lot of Soviet sources.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  20. #20

    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    Cookiegod, you dont know how to use the concept of context.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbVBSfACHWE
    Last edited by Hanny; July 29, 2019 at 01:18 PM.

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