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Thread: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

  1. #41

    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    Unternehmen Walkürie failed in 1944. Yet you say that they could have succeeded doing so in 1943?!
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Gilligan
    I can't think of a movie where I like it that the bad guy gets dumb, because it's like I want the bad guy to be smart smart smart, so the good guy has to be even smarter!
    Please stop using politics as an excuse for bad writing.
    That being said: A deep philosophical take about god, Nietzsche, Marx & faith.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    So deep!
    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    A polished masterpiece!
    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    Hey! I never said any of those things!

  2. #42

    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Unternehmen Walkürie failed in 1944. Yet you say that they could have succeeded doing so in 1943?!
    There was more chance of that move succeeding than any action against the USSR.

  3. #43

    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    All right. You're a German general in June 1943. The allies haven't even landed yet, the Western allies aren't interested in a separate peace with the axis and will not accept anything but an unconditional surrender to all including the Soviets, nor is your German government interested in unconditional surrender. A significant chunk of the army are devoted national socialists and most who aren't are still against betraying its government. So how will you do it?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Gilligan
    I can't think of a movie where I like it that the bad guy gets dumb, because it's like I want the bad guy to be smart smart smart, so the good guy has to be even smarter!
    Please stop using politics as an excuse for bad writing.
    That being said: A deep philosophical take about god, Nietzsche, Marx & faith.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    So deep!
    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    A polished masterpiece!
    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    Hey! I never said any of those things!

  4. #44
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    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    Interesting question. I say the war was lost in 1943, but I also say it was lost in 1939.

    Hitler did not declare war on France because IIRC the accepted thinking was a war between Germany and France in 1939 would be WWI all over again and the Soviets and US would benefit (in the event this is what happened but not exactly as expected).

    Victory in Poland was expected (the rapid pace of it was gratifying for the reconstructed Heere), but the six weeks victory in France was a thunderclap that turned accepted thinking on its head.

    If Hitler had declared war on France I think his generals would have shot him in the head. One France was defeated they must have had doubts about their own judgement.

    The massive gains in Barbarossa seemed to make victory in Russia seem possible. The Red Army was destroyed, that is, its casualties at least equalled it ration strength in 1941-1942 (I think the Red Army had three million in the West, and lost over four million in the first year).

    Given the Nazis absolutely sucked at intel they had no idea of Soviet reserves and potential. Eating your enemy whole would seem a fair basis for assuming victory was close, especially with no other basis for analysis.

    I think Germans knew in 1943 they were kaput as the US was also in the war. They didn't know about nukes but they knew they were up against it. Maybe they hoped to kill Stalin, or even win in the East so they could surrender with honour in the West?
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  5. #45

    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    All right. You're a German general in June 1943. The allies haven't even landed yet, the Western allies aren't interested in a separate peace with the axis and will not accept anything but an unconditional surrender to all including the Soviets, nor is your German government interested in unconditional surrender. A significant chunk of the army are devoted national socialists and most who aren't are still against betraying its government. So how will you do it?
    How it should've been done isn't relevant. All that matters is that it was the only move which, whether it succeeded or not, wasn't a mistake. In order for your case - that Citadel wasn't a mistake - to be convincing you have to treat the war as a morally neutral contest without a human cost.

  6. #46

    Default Re: No, Unternehmen Zitadelle was not a German mistake, and no, it definitely wasn't Hitler's fault.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    How it should've been done isn't relevant. All that matters is that it was the only move which, whether it succeeded or not, wasn't a mistake. In order for your case - that Citadel wasn't a mistake - to be convincing you have to treat the war as a morally neutral contest without a human cost.
    This thread was never about the morality of war. I assume everyone here is intelligent enough to already know that. The way the OP was written, entirely focussing on strategic, operative and tactical matters, should have given away the fact that I was entirely focussing on strategic, operative and tactical matters, not on political circumstances or ethics... Which... Come on. We're talking about the Nazis here.

    But given that you decided to drag politics and ethics in, how it's done becomes very relevant. Especially since you are claiming that it could've been done. Well, it couldn't.

    You and I thus have very different understandings of the word mistake:

    Yours: "If it leads to a bad outcome, it's a mistake."

    Mine: "If there was a better way, it was a mistake."
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Gilligan
    I can't think of a movie where I like it that the bad guy gets dumb, because it's like I want the bad guy to be smart smart smart, so the good guy has to be even smarter!
    Please stop using politics as an excuse for bad writing.
    That being said: A deep philosophical take about god, Nietzsche, Marx & faith.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    So deep!
    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    A polished masterpiece!
    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    Hey! I never said any of those things!

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