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Thread: POTF 14 - Nominations

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    Default POTF 14 - Nominations


    POTF is about recognising the very best posts, the best arguments and discourse in the D&D, and appropriately rewarding it. You shall progressively earn these medals once you achieve enough wins, but first you must be nominated in threads such as this one. And it works like this.

    Post of the Fortnight - Rules
    -Each user can nominate up to 2 posts per round, and the only valid form of nomination is by quoting with a link as shown below the chosen post in the PotF thread designated for it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    Looking forward to getting this kicked off for real!
    -Each 15 days there will be a new Nomination thread put up, and all the posts written during this period are considered eligible, if properly nominated. Exception are posts who are somewhat breaking the ToS; upon being acted by Moderation, they are always considered uneligible.

    - Remember: It is possible to nominate up to 2 posts each round of the competition; it is also possible to change a nomination anytime before the actual round of nominations ends.

    - There will be two competitions held every month, with a period for nominations followed by a period of voting. The submitted posts can be discussed in a dedicated space.

    - Only posts that have not participated in a previous poll and that have been published in the current period of given time in any section of the D&D area may be nominated.

    - The authors of the nominated post will be informed so they can withdraw the candidacy if that is their wish.

    - The maximum number of participating posts in the final vote will be ten. If more than ten nominations are submitted, seconded nominations will take priority. After seconded nominations are considered, earliest nominations will take priority. If the number of posts submitted to the contest is less than ten, the organizing committee may nominate posts if it considers it appropriate.

    -The members of the committee will never nominate a post belonging to one of them, but the rest of the users can nominate their posts (organizers posts), and vice versa.

    -In the event of a tie, both posts will be awarded and both posters will receive rep and 1 competition point.


    - Public or private messages asking for a vote for a candidate post are forbidden. Violators (and their posts) may not participate in the running contest.

    - People are expected to consider the quality and structure of the post itself, more than the content of the same. While it's certainly impossible to completely split the two aspects when making our own opinion on a post, it remains intended, as also explained in the Competition Commentary Thread, that commenting and discussing on the content rather than on the form/structure of the post is considered off-topic for the purpose of this competition. You are free to nominate and vote for whatever reason you want, but what happens in public has to strictly follow up with the competition rules.


    A nominated post should:

    1. Be focused and relevant to the topic(s) being discussed.
    2. Demonstrate a well-developed, insightful and nuanced understanding of the topic(s) it is discussing.
    3. Be logically coherent, well organized and communicate its points effectively.
    4. Support its contentions with verifiable evidence, either in the form of links or references.
    5. Not be deliberately vexatious to other users.


    Good luck everyone!
    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22 & Socrates1984 & Kilo11 & Vladyvid & Dick Cheney & phazer & Jake Armitage & webba 84 of the Imperial House of Hader

  2. #2
    Flinn's Avatar His Dudeness of TWC
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    Default Re: POTF 14 - Nominations

    Quote Originally Posted by Kritias View Post
    The argument of Orwellian propaganda depicting news coming from the alleged Left Media is a statement often dropped during the D&D threads, but to my knowledge a statement that hasn’t been tackled head on yet. So, hold on because this is going to be a bumpy ride. A lot of you will not like this thread but this is a discussion that we need to have at some point, debating the roots of what is now known as ‘alternative facts’ and what that means for our societies. Everyone is of course welcome in this thread and the more debate we can have, the better for all of us. I would please request that, since this is a sensitive subject for many people, you will debate with an open head.

    To begin with, how did Orwell came to be co-opted so many years after his death by the right-wing crusaders, bringing back his final warnings as an accusation to what the right-wingers consider ‘leftist propaganda’ and ‘thought policing’? The story begins with Orwell’s condemnation of the Soviet Unions’ actions in Barcelona in 1936…

    The Ministry of Truth: The Biography of George Orwell’s 1984, by the British music critic Dorian Lynskey, makes a rich and compelling case for the novel as the summation of Orwell’s entire body of work and a master key to understanding the modern world. The book was published in 1949, when Orwell was dying of tuberculosis, but Lynskey dates its biographical sources back more than a decade to Orwell’s months in Spain as a volunteer on the republican side of the country’s civil war. His introduction to totalitarianism came in Barcelona, when agents of the Soviet Union created an elaborate lie to discredit Trotskyists in the Spanish government as fascist spies.

    Left-wing journalists readily accepted the fabrication, useful as it was to the cause of communism. Orwell didn’t, exposing the lie with eyewitness testimony in journalism that preceded his classic book Homage to Catalonia—and that made him a heretic on the left. He was stoical about the boredom and discomforts of trench warfare—he was shot in the neck and barely escaped Spain with his life—but he took the erasure of truth hard. It threatened his sense of what makes us sane, and life worth living. “History stopped in 1936,” he later told his friend Arthur Koestler, who knew exactly what Orwell meant. After Spain, just about everything he wrote and read led to the creation of his final masterpiece. “History stopped,” Lynskey writes, “and Nineteen Eighty-Four began.”

    Lynskey traces the literary genesis of 1984 to the utopian fictions of the optimistic 19th century—Edward Bellamy’s Looking Backward (1888); the sci-fi novels of H. G. Wells, which Orwell read as a boy—and their dystopian successors in the 20th, including the Russian Yevgeny Zamyatin’s We (1924) and Huxley’s Brave New World (1932). The most interesting pages in The Ministry of Truth are Lynskey’s account of the novel’s afterlife. The struggle to claim 1984 began immediately upon publication, with a battle over its political meaning. Conservative American reviewers concluded that Orwell’s main target wasn’t just the Soviet Union but the left generally. Orwell, fading fast, waded in with a statement explaining that the novel was not an attack on any particular government but a satire of the totalitarian tendencies in Western society and intellectuals: “The moral to be drawn from this dangerous nightmare situation is a simple one: Don’t let it happen. It depends on you.” But every work of art escapes the artist’s control—the more popular and complex, the greater the misunderstandings.
    Of course Orwell meant with his condemnation more than to paint a picture of communism as the woe of all freedoms but taken with Orwell’s satirical novel The Animal Farm alone, the picture can be skewed to favor the right-wing narrative. In fact, he stated very clearly that

    If publishers and editors exert themselves to keep certain topics out of print, it is not because they are frightened of prosecution but because they are frightened of public opinion. In this country intellectual cowardice is the worst enemy a writer or journalist has to face, and that fact does not seem to me to have had the discussion it deserves.
    What does that mean? According to this article, Orwell’s position was more in line with the war-time UK’s voluntary self-censorship than the condemnation to communism that we generally believe it meant

    The “discomfort” of intellectual honesty, Orwell writes, meant that even during wartime, with the Ministry of Information’s often ham-fisted attempts at press censorship, “the sinister fact about literary censorship in England is that it is largely voluntary.” Self-censorship came down to matters of decorum, Orwell argues—or as we would put it today, “civility.” Obedience to “an orthodoxy” meant that while “it is not exactly forbidden to say this, that or the other… it is ‘not done’ to say it, just as in mid-Victorian times it was ‘not done’ to mention trousers in the presence of a lady. Anyone who challenges the prevailing orthodoxy finds himself silenced with surprising effectiveness," not by government agents, but by a critical backlash aimed at preserving a sense of “normalcy” at all costs.

    At stake for Orwell is no less than the fundamental liberal principle of free speech, in defense of which he invokes the famous quote from Voltaire as well as Rosa Luxembourg’s definition of freedom as “freedom for the other fellow.” “Liberty of speech and of the press,” he writes, does not demand “absolute liberty”—though he stops short of defining its limits. But it does demand the courage to tell uncomfortable truths, even such truths as are, perhaps, politically inexpedient or detrimental to the prospects of a lucrative career. “If liberty means anything at all,” Orwell concludes, "it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.”
    But what makes something Orwellian? In the book 1984, Winston writes in his diary that

    Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two equals four.
    Which means the ability of an individual to challenge any state imposed narrative that comes in conflict with their fundamental experiences of life. Simply put

    So too, in the real world, when state leaders and spokespersons can invent crimes and massacres, denounce the media for departing even slightly from the official party line, and entirely dismiss scientific findings, citizens have to decide whether they will likewise engage in doublethink-- if they will learn the “newspeak” and concede that two plus two is whatever they're told it is.
    Which brings me to this very important article published in 2014. I’ll quote its abstract below

    This article offers an academic critique of new media culture, as viewed comparatively with George Orwell's "1984." The author makes the argument that a number of plot elements of "1984" are reflected within contemporary Western societies. The assertion is made that these parallels have developed as a consequence of new media technologies. An over-arching position is taken that real-world governments have utilised new media technologies in ways that make themselves comparable to Orwell's fictional "Big Brother". The author begins by describing the socio-political landscape at the time Orwell wrote the novel. The next section addresses recent examples of ways in which government agencies have used new media technologies as a surveillance tool. The author posits that the US government uses new media technology as a propaganda tool. Through use of new media, the USA attempts to limit the ability of people to reject its narratives. In the final section, the author details the ways in which new media technologies are contributing to the destruction of language and knowledge. The author's concluding argument is that the negative effects of new media technology can only be ameliorated through critical thought.
    I would like to see how you feel about the argument of liberal orwellian networks right about now so I’m going to stop my argumentation here momentarily. Please give your two cents before we begin.

    Sources: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    1984 should be described not as a futuristic romance or an elaborate political manifesto, but as the embodiment of Orwell's private feud against Stalin and the Communist Parties. It all started in Democratic Spain, where Orwell's "hippie" and "gentlemanly" leftism was casually defeated by the remarkably more disciplined, organised and powerful Communist Party of Spain and its various allies. Orwell never recovered from the collapse of his utopian dreams, so he channeled his bitterness to 1984. This is why, in reality, 1984 is not a masterpiece, but a very mediocre piece, because, similarly to other "vendetta diatribes", the author's goal is not write a qualitative story, capable of pleasing and sparking the interest of his audience, but, on the contrary, to villify his adversaries and to promote his agenda, no matter the cost.

    Isaac Asimov's review, who is an expert on the subject and could be considered as ideologically closer to Orwell than to Kremlin, enumerates all the novel's issues. To give a brief summary, Orwell fails at almost all his predictions (the exception being the geopolitical rivalry between the USSR and PRC), while his venom is so extravagant that his invented methods of censorship, surveillance and propaganda openly defy logic and common sense. 1984 also severely lacks in creativity, as Orwell limits himself to copy-pasting the history of the Soviet Union since the October Revolution. Big Brother has a big, fat moustache, while Orwell highlights Goldstein's Jewish features. Get it, they represent Stalin and Trotsky!

    So, how did 1984 became so famous and vaunted, despite its undeniable weaknesses? Its perception owes a lot to its clear political undertones. Initially, the book had difficulties in getting published, because the Soviet Union was an invaluable ally in the war against the Third Reich. Then, 1984 was praised by conservatives as a convenient anathema to the new geopolitical rival of Washington and London and somewhat later by liberals, as a critique towards the American government's shady practices. Nowadays, it's the turn of the far-right to exploit a truly abused book, because it identifies the Big Brother's totalitarianism with the "cosmopolitan, Bolshevik elite" that supposedly conspires against the persecuted patriots. Of course, as a result of the fact that the far-right movement is familiarised neither with 1984 nor with literature, in general, the adjective "Orwellian" is spammed at such a ridiculous extent that it has lost its meaning. It usually refers to instances where the exceptionally fragile sensitivities of the alt-right are violated:

    This concerns political correctness (e.g. describing the far-right in more accurate and less mild terms), safe-space (e.g. accounts of alt-right activists being banned in social media, due to rule-breaching) or even outright "snowflakery" (silencing any opinion which may contradict the far-right's narrative). In conclusion, the content of 1984 has a long tradition of getting taken advantage by various political sides, of which only a tiny portion has actually managed to fully read and understand the slightly incoherent, unimaginative and boring adventures of Winston. Personally, I feel a bit sorry for Orwell, because he should have certainly been frustrated over nationalists idolizing his work, but that's the obligatory price you pay, when you publish a political rant under the thin guise of a dystopian novel.

    Below I quote Isaac Asimov's review, because, unlike 1984 itself, is incredibly accurate about the strength, flaws and prospects of its subject:
    Warning huge text
    Quote Originally Posted by Isaac Asimov
    I've been writing a four-part article for Field Newspaper Syndicate at thebeginning of each year for several years now and in 1980, mindful of the
    approach of the year 1984, FNS asked me to write a thorough critique of
    George Orwell's novel 1984.
    I was reluctant. I remembered almost nothing of the book and said so -
    but Denison Demac, the lovely young woman who is my contact at FNS, simply
    sent me a copy of it and said, 'Read it.'
    So I read it and found myself absolutely astonished at what I read. I
    wondered how many people who talked about the novel so glibly had ever read
    it; or if they had, whether they remembered it at all.
    I felt I would have to write the critique if only to set people straight.
    (I'm sorry; I love setting people straight.)


    A. THE WRITING OF 1984
    In 1949, a book entitled 1984 was published. It was written by Eric Arthur
    Blair under the pseudonym of George Orwell.
    The book attempted to show what life would be like in a world of total
    evil, in which those controlling the government kept themselves in power by
    brute force, by distorting the truth, by continually rewriting history, by
    mesmerising the people generally.
    This evil world was placed only thirty-five years in the future so that
    even men who were already in their early middle age at the time the book was
    published might live to see it if they lived out a normal lifetime.
    I, for instance, was already a married man when the book appeared and yet
    here we are less than four years away from that apocalyptic year (for '1984'
    has become a year that is associated with dread because of Orwell's book),
    and I am very likely to live to see it.
    In this chapter, I will discuss the book, but first: Who was Blair/Orwell
    and why was the book written?
    Blair was born in 1903 into the status of a British gentleman. His father
    was in the Indian civil service and Blair himself lived the life of a
    British Imperial official. He went to Eton, served in Burma, and so on.
    However, he lacked the money to be an English gentleman to the full.
    Then, too, he didn't want to spend his time at dull desk jobs; he wanted to
    be a writer. Thirdly, he felt guilty about his status in the upper class.
    So he did in the late 1920s what so many well-to-do American young people
    in the 1960s did. In short, he became what we would have called a 'hippie'
    at a later time. He lived under slum conditions in London and Paris,
    consorted with and identified with slum dwellers and vagrants, managed to
    ease his conscience and, at the same time, to gather material for his
    earliest books.
    He also turned left wing and became a socialist, fighting with the
    loyalists in Spain in the 1930s. There he found himself caught up in the
    sectarian struggles between the various left-wing factions, and since he
    believed in a gentlemanly English form of socialism, he was inevitably on
    the losing side. Opposed to him were passionate Spanish anarchists,
    syndicalists, and communists, who bitterly resented the fact that the
    necessities of fighting the Franco fascists got in the way of their fighting
    each other.
    The communists, who were the best organised, won out and Orwell had to leave
    Spain, for he was convinced that if he did not, he would be killed
    From then on, to the end of his life, he carried on a private literary
    war with the communists, determined to win in words the battle he had lost
    in action.
    During World War II, in which he was rejected for military service, he
    was associated with the left wing of the British Labour party, but didn't
    much sympathise with their views, for even their reckless version of
    socialism seemed too well organised for him.
    He wasn't much affected, apparently, by the Nazi brand of
    totalitarianism, for there was no room within him except for his private war
    with Stalinist communism. Consequently, when Great Britain was fighting for
    its life against Nazism, and the Soviet Union fought as an ally in the
    struggle and contributed rather more than its share in lives lost and in
    resolute courage, Orwell wrote Animal Farm which was a satire of the Russian
    Revolution and what followed, picturing it in terms of a revolt of barnyard
    animals against human masters.
    He completed Animal Farm in 1944 and had trouble finding a publisher
    since it wasn't a particularly good time for upsetting the Soviets. As soon
    as the war came to an end, however, the Soviet Union was fair game and
    Animal Farm was published. It was greeted with much acclaim and Orwell
    became sufficiently prosperous to retire and devote himself to his
    masterpiece, 1984.
    That book described society as a vast world-wide extension of Stalinist
    Russia in the 1930s, pictured with the venom of a rival left-wing sectarian.
    Other forms of totalitarianism play a small role. There are one or two
    mentions of the Nazis and of the Inquisition. At the very start, there is a
    reference or two to Jews, almost as though they were going to prove the
    objects of persecution, but that vanishes almost at once, as though Orwell
    didn't want readers to mistake the villains for Nazis.
    The picture is of Stalinism, and Stalinism only.
    By the time the book came out in 1949, the Cold War was at its height.
    The book therefore proved popular. It was almost a matter of patriotism in
    the West to buy it and talk about it, and perhaps even to read parts of it,
    although it is my opinion that more people bought it and talked about it
    than read it, for it is a dreadfully dull book - didactic, repetitious, and
    all but motionless.
    It was most popular at first with people who leaned towards the
    conservative side of the political spectrum, for it was clearly an
    anti-Soviet polemic, and the picture of life it projected in the London of
    1984 was very much as conservatives imagined life in the Moscow of 1949 to
    be.
    During the McCarthy era in the United States, 1984 became increasingly
    popular with those who leaned towards the liberal side of the political
    spectrum, for it seemed to them that the United States of the early 1950s
    was beginning to move in the direction of thought-control and that all the
    viciousness Orwell had depicted was on its way towards us.
    Thus, in an afterword to an edition published in paperback by New
    American Library in 1961, the liberal psychoanalyst and philosopher Erich
    Fromm concluded as follows:
    'Books like Orwell's are powerful warnings, and it would be most
    unfortunate if the reader smugly interpreted 1984 as another description of
    Stalinist barbarism, and if he does not see that it means us, too.'
    Even if Stalinism and McCarthyism are disregarded, however, more and more
    Americans were becoming aware of just how 'big' the government was getting;
    how high taxes were; how increasingly rules and regulations permeated
    business and even ordinary life; how information concerning every facet of
    private life was entering the files not only of government bureaux but of
    private credit systems.
    1984, therefore, came to stand not for Stalinism, or even for
    dictatorship in general - but merely for government. Even governmental
    paternalism seemed '1984ish' and the catch phrase 'Big Brother is watching
    you' came to mean everything that was too big for the individual to control.
    It was not only big government and big business that was a symptom of 1984
    but big science, big labour, big anything.
    In fact, so thoroughly has 1984-ophobia penetrated the consciousness of
    many who have not read the book and have no notion of what it contains, that
    one wonders what will happen to us after 31 December 1984. When New Year's
    Day of 1985 arrives and the United States is still in existence and facing
    very much the problems it faces today, how will we express our fears of
    whatever aspect of life fills us with apprehension? What new date can we
    invent to take the place of 1984?
    Orwell did not live to see his book become the success it did. He did not
    witness the way in which he made 1984 into a year that would haunt a whole
    generation of Americans. Orwell died of tuberculosis in a London hospital in
    January 1950, just a few months after the book was published, at the age of
    forty-six. His awareness of imminent death may have added to the bitterness
    of the book.


    B. THE SCIENCE FICTION OF 1984
    Many people think of 1984 as a science fiction novel, but almost the only
    item about 1984 that would lead one to suppose this is the fact that it is
    purportedly laid in the future. Not so! Orwell had no feel for the future,
    and the displacement of the story is much more geographical than temporal.
    The London in which the story is placed is not so much moved thirty-five
    years forward in time, from 1949 to 1984, as it is moved a thousand miles
    east in space to Moscow.
    Orwell imagines Great Britain to have gone through a revolution similar
    to the Russian Revolution and to have gone through all the stages that
    Soviet development did. He can think of almost no variations on the theme.
    The Soviets had a series of purges in the 1930s, so the Ingsoc (English
    Socialism) had a series of purges in the 1950s.
    The Soviets converted one of their revolutionaries, Leon Trotsky, into a
    villain, leaving his opponent, Joseph Stalin, as a hero. The Ingsoc,
    therefore, convert one of their revolutionaries, Emmanuel Goldstein, into a
    villain, leaving his opponent, with a moustache like Stalin, as a hero.
    There is no ability to make minor changes, even. Goldstein, like Trotsky,
    has 'a lean Jewish face, with a great fuzzy aureole of white hair and a
    small goatee beard'. Orwell apparently does not want to confuse the issue by
    giving Stalin a different name so he calls him merely 'Big Brother'.
    At the very beginning of the story, it is made clear that television
    (which was coming into existence at the time the book was written) served as
    a continuous means of indoctrination of the people, for sets cannot be
    turned off. (And, apparently, in a deteriorating London in which nothing
    works, these sets never fail.)
    The great Orwellian contribution to future technology is that the
    television set is two-way, and that the people who are forced to hear and
    see the television screen can themselves be heard and seen at all times and
    are under constant supervision even while sleeping or in the bathroom.
    Hence, the meaning of the phrase 'Big Brother is watching you'.
    This is an extraordinarily inefficient system of keeping everyone under
    control. To have a person being watched at all times means that some other
    person must be doing the watching at all times (at least in the Orwellian
    society) and must be doing so very narrowly, for there is a great
    development of the art of interpreting gesture and facial expression.
    One person cannot watch more than one person in full concentration, and
    can only do so for a comparatively short time before attention begins to
    wander. I should guess, in short, that there may have to be five watchers
    for every person watched. And then, of course, the watchers must themselves
    be watched since no one in the Orwellian world is suspicion-free.
    Consequently, the system of oppression by two-way television simply will not
    work.
    Orwell himself realised this by limiting its workings to the Party
    members. The 'proles' (proletariat), for whom Orwell cannot hide his British
    upper-class contempt, are left largely to themselves as subhuman. (At one
    point in the book, he says that any prole that shows ability is killed - a
    leaf taken out of the Spartan treatment of their helots
    twenty-five hundred years ago.)
    Furthermore, he has a system of volunteer spies in which children report
    on their parents, and neighbours on each other. This cannot possibly work
    well since eventually everyone reports everyone else and it all has to be
    abandoned.
    Orwell was unable to conceive of computers or robots, or he would have
    placed everyone under non-human surveillance. Our own computers to some
    extent do this in the IRS, in credit files, and so on, but that does not
    take us towards 1984, except in fevered imaginations. Computers and tyranny
    do not necessarily go hand in hand. Tyrannies have worked very well without
    computers (consider the Nazis) and the most computerised nations in today's
    world are also the least tyrannical.
    Orwell lacks the capacity to see (or invent) small changes. His hero
    finds it difficult in his world of 1984 to get shoelaces or razor blades. So
    would I in the real world of the 1980s, for so many people use slip-on shoes
    and electric razors.
    Then, too, Orwell had the technophobic fixation that every technological
    advance is a slide downhill. Thus, when his hero writes, he 'fitted a nib
    into the penholder and sucked it to get the grease off. He does so 'because
    of a feeling that the beautiful creamy paper deserved to be written on with
    a real nib instead of being scratched with an ink-pencil'.
    Presumably, the 'ink-pencil' is the ball-point pen that was coming into
    use at the time that 1984 was being written. This means that Orwell
    describes something as being written' with a real nib but being 'scratched'
    with a ball-point. This is, however, precisely the reverse of the truth. If
    you are old enough to remember steel pens, you will remember that they
    scratched fearsomely, and you know ball-points don't.
    This is not science fiction, but a distorted nostalgia for a past that
    never was. I am surprised that Orwell stopped with the steel pen and that he
    didn't have Winston writing with a neat goose quill.
    Nor was Orwell particularly prescient in the strictly social aspects of
    the future he was presenting, with the result that the Orwellian world of
    1984 is incredibly old-fashioned when compared with the real world of the
    1980s.
    Orwell imagines no new vices, for instance. His characters are all gin
    hounds and tobacco addicts, and part of the horror of his picture of 1984 is
    his eloquent description of the low quality of the gin and tobacco.
    He foresees no new drugs, no marijuana, no synthetic hallucinogens. No
    one expects an s.f. writer to be precise and exact in his forecasts, but
    surely one would expect him to invent some differences.
    In his despair (or anger), Orwell forgets the virtues human beings have.
    All his characters are, in one way or another, weak or sadistic, or sleazy,
    or stupid, or repellent. This may be how most people are, or how Orwell
    wants to indicate they will all be under tyranny, but it seems to me that
    under even the worst tyrannies, so far, there have been brave men and women
    who have withstood the tyrants to the death and whose personal histories are
    luminous flames in the surrounding darkness. If only because there is no
    hint of this in 1984, it does not resemble the real world of the 1980s.
    Nor did he foresee any difference in the role of women or any weakening
    of the feminine stereotype of 1949. There are only two female characters of
    importance. One is a strong, brainless 'prole' woman who is an endless
    washerwoman, endlessly singing a popular song with words of the type
    familiar in the 1930s and 1940s (at which Orwell shudders fastidiously as
    'trashy', in blissful non-anticipation of hard rock).
    The other is the heroine, Julia, who is sexually promiscuous (but is at
    least driven to courage by her interest in sex) and is otherwise brainless.
    When the hero, Winston, reads to her the book within a book that explains
    the nature of the Orwellian world, she responds by falling asleep - but then
    since the treatise Winston reads is stupefyingly soporific, this may be an
    indication of Julia's good sense rather than the reverse.
    In short, if 1984 must be considered science fiction, then it is very bad
    science fiction.


    C. THE GOVERNMENT OF 1984
    Orwell's 1984 is a picture of all-powerful government, and it has helped
    make the notion of 'big government' a very frightening one.
    We have to remember, though, that the world of the late 1940s, during
    which Orwell was writing his book, was one in which there had been, and
    still were, big governments with true tyrants - individuals whose every
    wish, however unjust, cruel or vicious, was law. What's more, it seemed as
    though such tyrants were irremovable except by the chance of outside force.
    Benito Mussolini of Italy, after twenty-one years of absolute rule, was
    overthrown, but that was only because his country was suffering defeat in
    war.
    Adolf Hitler of Germany, a far stronger and more brutal tyrant, ruled
    with a steel hand for twelve years, yet even defeat did not, in itself,
    bring about his overthrow. Though the area over which he ruled shrank and
    shrank and shrank, and even though overwhelming armies of his adversaries
    closed in from the east and west, he remained absolute tyrant over whatever
    area he controlled - even when it was only over the bunker in which he
    committed suicide. Until he removed himself, no one dared remove him. (There
    were plots against him, to be sure, but they never worked, sometimes through
    quirks of fate that seemed explainable only by supposing that someone down
    there liked him.)
    Orwell, however, had no time for either Mussolini or Hitler. His enemy
    was Stalin, and at the time that 1984 was published, Stalin had ruled the
    Soviet Union in a ribbreaking bear hug for twenty-five years, had survived a
    terrible war in which his nation suffered enormous losses and yet was now
    stronger than ever. To Orwell, it must have seemed that neither time nor
    fortune could budge Stalin, but that he would live on forever with ever
    increasing strength. - And that was how Orwell pictured Big Brother.
    Of course, that was not the way it really was. Orwell didn't live long
    enough to see it but Stalin died only three years after 1984 was published,
    and it was not long after that that his regime was denounced as a tyranny
    by - guess who - the Soviet leadership.
    The Soviet Union is still the Soviet Union, but it is not Stalinist, and
    the enemies of the state are no longer liquidated (Orwell uses 'vaporised'
    instead, such small changes being all he can manage) with quite such
    abandon.
    Again, Mao Tse-tung died in China, and while he himself has not been
    openly denounced, his close associates, as 'the Gang of Four', were promptly
    demoted from Divinity, and while China is still China, it is not Maoist any
    longer.
    Franco of Spain died in his bed and while, to his very last breath, he
    remained the unquestioned leader he had been for nearly forty years,
    immediately after that last breath, Fascism abruptly dwindled in Spain, as
    it had in Portugal after Salazar's death.
    In short, Big Brothers do die, or at least they have so far, and when
    they die, the government changes, always for the milder.
    This is not to say that new tyrants may not make themselves felt, but
    they will die, too. At least in the real 1980s we have every confidence they
    will and the undying Big Brother is not yet a real threat.
    If anything, in fact, governments of the 1980s seem dangerously weak. The
    advance of technology has put powerful weapons - explosives, machine guns,
    fast cars into the hands of urban terrorists who can and do kidnap, hijack,
    gun down, and take hostages with impunity while governments stand by more or
    less helplessly.
    In addition to the immortality of Big Brother, Orwell presents two other
    ways of maintaining an eternal tyranny.
    First -,present someone or something to hate. In the Orwellian world it
    was Emmanuel Goldstein for whom hate was built up and orchestrated in a
    robotized mass function.
    This is nothing new, of course. Every nation in the world has used
    various neighbours for the purpose of hate. This sort of thing is so easily
    handled and comes as such second nature to humanity that one wonders why
    there have to be the organised hate drives in the Orwellian world.
    It needs scarcely any clever psychological mass movements to make Arabs
    hate Israelis and Greeks hate Turks and Catholic Irish hate Protestant
    Irish - and vice versa in each case. To be sure, the Nazis organised mass
    meetings of delirium that every participant seemed to enjoy, but it had no
    permanent effect. Once the war moved on to German soil, the Germans
    surrendered as meekly as though they had never Sieg-Heiled in their lives.
    Second - rewrite history. Almost every one of the few individuals we meet
    in 1984 has, as his job, the rapid rewriting of the past, the readjustment
    of statistics, the overhauling of newspapers - as though anyone is going to
    take the trouble to pay attention to the past anyway.
    This Orwellian preoccupation with the minutiae of 'historical proof' is
    typical of the political sectarian who is always quoting what has been said
    and done in the past to prove a point to someone on the other side who is
    always quoting something to the opposite effect that has been said and done.
    As any politician knows, no evidence of any kind is ever required. It is
    only necessary to make a statement - any statement - forcefully enough to
    have an audience believe it. No one will check the lie against the facts,
    and, if they do, they will disbelieve the facts. Do you think the German
    people in 1939 pretended that the Poles had attacked them and started World
    War II? No! Since they were told that was so, they believed it as seriously
    as you and I believe that they attacked the Poles.
    To be sure, the Soviets put out new editions of their Encyclopaedia in
    which politicians rating a long biography in earlier editions are suddenly
    omitted entirely, and this is no doubt the germ of the Orwellian notion, but
    the chances of carrying it as far as is described in 1984 seem to me to be
    nil - not because it is beyond human wickedness, but because it is totally
    unnecessary.
    Orwell makes much of 'Newspeak' as an organ of repression - the
    conversion of the English language into so limited and abbreviated an
    instrument that the very vocabulary of dissent vanishes. Partly he got the
    notion from the undoubted habit of abbreviation. He gives examples of
    'Communist International' becoming 'Comintern' and 'Geheime Staatspolizei'
    becoming 'Gestapo', but that is not a modern totalitarian invention. 'Vulgus
    mobile' became 'mob'; 'taxi cabriolet' became 'cab'; 'quasi-stellar radio
    source' became 'quasar'; 'light amplification by stimulated emission of
    radiation' became 'laser' and so on. There is no sign that such compressions
    of the language have ever weakened it as a mode of expression.
    As a matter of fact, political obfuscation has tended to use many words
    rather than few, long words rather than short, to extend rather than to
    reduce. Every leader of inadequate education or limited intelligence hides
    behind exuberant inebriation of loquacity.
    Thus, when Winston Churchill suggested the development of 'Basic English'
    as an international language (something which undoubtedly also contributed
    to 'Newspeak'), the suggestion was stillborn.
    We are therefore in no way approaching Newspeak in its condensed form,
    though we have always had Newspeak in its extended form and always will
    have.
    We also have a group of young people among us who say things like 'Right
    on, man, you know. It's like he's got it all together, you know, man. I
    mean, like you know -' and so on for five minutes when the word that the
    young people are groping for is 'Huh?'
    That, however, is not Newspeak, and it has always been with us, too. It
    is something which in Oldspeak is called 'inarticulacy' and it is not what
    Orwell had in mind.


    D. THE INTERNATIONAL SITUATION OF 1984
    Although Orwell seemed, by and large, to be helplessly stuck in the world of
    1949, in one respect at least he showed himself to be remarkably prescient,
    and that was in foreseeing the tripartite split of the world of the 1980s.
    The international world of 1984 is a world of three superpowers: Oceania,
    Eurasia, and Eastasia - and that fits in, very roughly, with the three
    actual superpowers of the 1980s: the United States, the Soviet Union, and
    China.
    Oceania is a combination of the United States and the British Empire.
    Orwell, who was an old Imperial civil servant, did not seem to notice that
    the British Empire was in its last throes in the late 1940s and was about to
    dissolve. He seems to suppose, in fact, that the British Empire is the
    dominant member of the British-American combination.
    At least, the entire action takes place in London and phrases such as
    'the United States' and 'Americans' are rarely, if ever, mentioned. But
    then, this is very much in the fashion of the British spy novel in which,
    ever since World War II, Great Britain (currently about the eighteenth
    strongest military and economic power in the world) is set up as the great
    adversary of the Soviet Union, or of China, or of some invented
    international conspiracy, with the United States either never mentioned or
    reduced to the small courtesy appearance of an occasional CIA agent.
    Eurasia is, of course, the Soviet Union, which Orwell assumes will have
    absorbed the whole European continent. Eurasia, therefore, includes all of
    Europe, plus Siberia, and its population is 95 per cent European by any
    standard. Nevertheless, Orwell describes the Eurasians as 'solid-looking men
    with expressionless Asiatic faces'. Since Orwell still lives in a time when
    'European' and 'Asiatic' are equivalent to ' 'hero' and 'villain', it is
    impossible to inveigh against the Soviet Union with the proper emotion if it
    is not thought of as 'Asiatic'. This comes under the heading of what
    Orwellian Newspeak calls 'double-think', something that Orwell, like any
    human being, is good at.
    It may be, of course, that Orwell is thinking not of Eurasia, or the
    Soviet Union, but of his great bête noire, Stalin. Stalin is a Georgian, and
    Georgia, lying south of the Caucasus mountains, is, by strict geographic
    considerations, part of Asia.
    Eastasia is, of course, China and various dependent nations.
    Here is prescience. At the time Orwell was writing 1984, the Chinese
    communists had not yet won control of the country and many (in the United
    States, in particular) were doing their best to see that the anti-Communist,
    Chiang Kai-shek, retained control. Once the communists won, it became part
    of the accepted credo of the West that the Chinese would be under thorough
    Soviet control and that China and the Soviet Union would form a monolithic
    communist power.
    Orwell not only foresaw the communist victory (he saw that victory
    everywhere, in fact) but also foresaw that Russia and China would not form a
    monolithic bloc but would be deadly enemies.
    There, his own experience as a Leftist sectarian may have helped him. He
    had no Rightist superstitions concerning Leftists as unified and
    indistinguishable villains. He knew they would fight each other as fiercely
    over the most trifling points of doctrine as would the most pious
    of Christians.
    He also foresaw a permanent state of war among the three; a condition of
    permanent stalemate with the alliances ever-shifting, but always two against
    the strongest. This was the old-fashioned 'balance of power' system which
    was used in ancient Greece, in medieval Italy, and in early modern Europe.
    Orwell's mistake lay in thinking there had to be actual war to keep the
    merry-go-round of the balance of power in being. In fact, in one of the more
    laughable parts of the book, he goes on and on concerning the necessity of
    permanent war as a means of consuming the world's production of resources
    and thus keeping the social stratification of upper, middle, and lower
    classes in being. (This sounds like a very Leftist explanation of war as the
    result of a conspiracy worked out with great difficulty.)
    In actual fact, the decades since 1945 have been remarkably war-free as
    compared with the decades before it. There have been local wars in
    profusion, but no general war. But then, war is not required as a desperate
    device to consume the world's resources. That can be done by such other
    devices as endless increase in population and in energy use, neither of
    which Orwell considers.
    Orwell did not foresee any of the significant economic changes that have
    taken place since World War II. He did not foresee the role of oil or its
    declining availability or its increasing price, or the escalating power of
    those nations who control it. I don't recall his mentioning the word 'oil'.
    But perhaps it is close enough to mark Orwellian prescience here, if we
    substitute 'cold war' for 'war'. There has been, in fact, a more or less
    continual 'cold war' that has served to keep employment high and solve some
    short-term economic problems (at the cost of creating long-term greater
    ones). And this cold war is enough to deplete resources.
    Furthermore, the alliances shifted as Orwell foresaw and very nearly as
    suddenly. When the United States seemed all-powerful, the Soviet Union and
    China were both vociferously anti-American and in a kind of alliance. As
    American power decreased, the Soviet Union and China fell apart and, for a
    while, each of the three powers inveighed against the other two equally.
    Then, when the Soviet Union came to seem particularly powerful, a kind of
    alliance sprang up between the United States and China, as they co-operated
    in vilifying the Soviet Union, and spoke softly of each other.
    In 1984 every shift of alliance involved an orgy of history rewriting. In
    real life, no such folly is necessary. The public swings from side to side
    easily, accepting the change in circumstance with no concern for the past at
    all. For instance, the Japanese, by the 1950s, had changed from unspeakable
    villains to friends, while the Chinese moved in the opposite direction with
    no one bothering to wipe out Pearl Harbour. No one cared, for goodness'
    sake.
    Orwell has his three great powers voluntarily forgo the use of nuclear
    bombs, and to be sure such bombs have not been used in war since 1945. That,
    however, may be because the only powers with large nuclear arsenals, the
    United States and the Soviet Union, have avoided war with each other. Were
    there actual war, it is extremely doubtful that one side or the other would
    not finally feel it necessary to push the button. In that respect, Orwell
    perhaps falls short of reality.
    London does, however, occasionally suffer a missile strike, which sounds
    very much like a V-1 or V-2 weapon of 1944, and the city is in a 1945-type
    shambles. Orwell cannot make 1984 very different from 1944 in this respect.
    Orwell, in fact, makes it clear that by 1984, the universal communism of
    the three superpowers has choked science and reduced it to uselessness
    except in those areas where it is needed for war. There is no question but
    that the nations are more eager to invest in science where war applications
    are in clear view but, alas, there is no way of separating war from peace
    where applications are in question.
    Science is a unit, and everything in it could conceivably be related to
    war and destruction. Science has therefore not been choked off but continues
    not only in the United States and Western Europe and Japan, but also in the
    Soviet Union and in China. The advances of science are too numerous to
    attempt to list, but think of lasers and computers as 'war weapons' with
    infinite peaceful applications.
    To summarise, then: George Orwell in 1984 was, in my opinion, engaging in
    a private feud with Stalinism, rather that attempting to forecast the
    future. He did not have the science fictional knack of foreseeing a
    plausible future and, in actual fact, in almost all cases, the world of 1984
    bears no relation to the real world of the 1980s.
    The world may go communist, if not by 1984, then by some not very much
    later date; or it may see civilisation destroyed. If this happens, however,
    it will happen in a fashion quite different from that depicted in 1984 and
    if we try to prevent either eventuality by imagining that 1984 is accurate,
    then we will be defending ourselves against assaults from the wrong
    direction and we will lose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    I don't agree with what you say and the facts clearly don't support. Animal House is clearly satirizing communism and the left, what with how all animals were equal but some more equal.thsn others. That is strictly from communism and the left, the right never proclaimed everyone should be the same, it has always been ok with some people having more than others, that some are rich. It was the left that complained that it is wrong having some people being rich and others not, not the right.
    Nope, that's an incorrect interpretation of the book. The entire point of Animal Farm is how Napoleon and the pigs hijacked the otherwise justified uprising against human oppression, by imposing a new hierarchy, with themselves at the top. Napoleon and the pigs gradually evolve into corrupt human versions and do not even hesitate to cooperate with the former tyrants of the farm. Animal Farm is a pretty obvious allegory about how the Stalinists betrayed the Russian Revolution and, instead of applying the noble principles of Socialism Orwell deeply admired, established an authoritarian regime. The goal of the book was to underline the distinction between what Orwell perceived as nefarious radical Communism and the more moderate leftist ideology he personally espoused. Similarly to Animal Farm, 1984 is also part of Orwell's personal crusade against Stalin.
    Under the patronage of Finlander, patron of Lugotorix & Lifthrasir & joerock22 & Socrates1984 & Kilo11 & Vladyvid & Dick Cheney & phazer & Jake Armitage & webba 84 of the Imperial House of Hader

  3. #3
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
    took an arrow to the knee

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    Default Re: POTF 14 - Nominations

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    No, I don't think Conservatives really have the option of sacrificing institutions to control social apparatuses. First, there is no guarantee you get those institutions or traditions back and I don't know why you made it seem like they can just casually be reinstated. But, more importantly, it defeats the whole point of being a Conservative. Revolutionaries destroy institutions to effect social change, not Conservatives. It isn't that complicated; if you want to pick and choose (the "hierarchy" as you call it) which institutions are convenient to follow at the time, you probably shouldn't claim to be a true Conservative. Just a Conservative when convenient.


    As you are using it? No, I don't think race is a thing in the way you, and plenty of others, think it is. Again, your use and the hypothetical membership of the group "White" easily demonstrates this flaw. The group membership changes in definition over time.

    You trying to back away from the normative aspects of these statements is making this feel more weird to me. Obviously people "care" about race, to greatly varying extents, but you were specifically using it as a means to note "permanent" change a nation faces (different skin tones). Most people, at least in this day and age, I would wager do not think your skin color is particularly important or meaningful to your nationality. That is to say, ones "American-ness" has little to do with their skin color. Ethno nationalism isn't quite that popular, yet.


    Any big historical civilization was multiracial, by necessity, with varying degrees of egalitarianism and importance on race. If you want to label them all as not truly multiracial because there was, again varying levels of, stratification across ethnic groups in the multiracial society, then that isn't really a fair depiction of ground level, racial engagement in those societies. It was obviously never perfect, but there were have been, and very well can be, different racial groups that live together and hold the same national identity.



    I wasn't comparing Americans to Somalians, and neither were you. You referred to skin color, not specific geographical location. And I agree, there are LOTS of traits individuals have that are important to social cohesion. Shared language can be fairly important. Shared cultural values, such as freedom, general Liberalism, disapproving of violence, etc. are important for long term stability. Ones skin color does not seem that important. Certain minorities might put great meaning on skin color itself, that is almost always a proxy for their ignorance about more pertinent characteristics. So, like, you would not hear racists say that a dark skinned person is less American by virtue of not having the proper skin tone range of an American, but that their dark skin indicates other attributes that would make them un-American (more prone to crime, don't support freedom, and so on).

    And I am guessing you aren't that familiar with US history, but European immigration to the USA has frequently been problematic. And I have brought up, multiple times now, that "White" as a group has changed in the US over the decades, I would imagine it has been similar abroad. The Irish did not have an easy time immigrating to the US, nor were they considered "White" by Anglo-Americans, with frequent criticism leveled at the Irish sounding familiar to rhetoric used against immigrants today; their values were incompatible, they were prone to committing crime, they were never going to assimilate into American culture. Now we have a drunken knock-off of Saint Patrick's Day where everyone wears Irish Republican colors. Germans had a rough time immigrating here at times, facing waves of discrimination directed at them that waxed whenever there was an international reason to be angry at Germany. Ben Franklin even referred to them as distinctly "Swarthy", in addition to several other European groups that weren't sufficiently Anglo (or as Ben F would call it, "White"):


    Speaking of which, Italians faced a lot of discrimination coming over here as well, and were certainly not considered "White" by most Americans when they first immigrated. I don't think the "rules" of how society determines race are as consistent as you do.
    "I pray Heaven to bestow the best of blessings on this house and all that shall hereafter inhabit it. May none but honest and wise men ever rule under this roof."
    - John Adams, on the White House, in a letter to Abigail Adams (2 November 1800)

  4. #4

    Default Re: POTF 14 - Nominations

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    Contrary to what you have repeatedly claimed, Finkelstein has not disprove the previous chronology, not is dead as you assert. The dating available to us is not precise enough to rule out either Finkelsteins's or the mre traditional fhrnology.
    From the perspective of mainstream archaeology, it is dead without a doubt. This is every original academic publication relevant to the debate. You will not find a single one arguing in favor of the conventional chronology since 2005 when Mazar introduced his first iteration of the modified conventional chronology.

    On the other hand:

    ABSTRACT: Nearly a decade ago, a different chronology than the conventional absolute chronology for the early Iron Age in Israel was suggested. The new, lower chronology “transfers” Iron Age I and Iron Age IIA contexts in Israel, traditionally dated to the 11th and 10th centuries BCE, to the 10th and 9th centuries, respectively. Thus, it places the Iron I|IIA transition at about 920–900 BCE. This alternative chronology carries important implications for Israelite history, historiography, and Bible research, as well as for the chronologies of other regions around the Mediterranean. Relevant radiocarbon data sets published to date, which were measured at different sites by different laboratories, were claimed to be incompatible. Therefore, the question of agreement between laboratories and dating methods needs to be addressed at the outset of any study attempting to resolve such a tight chronological dilemma. This paper addresses results pertaining to this issue as part of a comprehensive attempt to date the early Iron Age in Israel based on many sites, employing different measuring techniques in 2 laboratories. The intercomparison results demonstrate that: a) the agreement between the 2 laboratories is well within the standard in the 14C community and that no bias can be detected in either laboratory; and b) calculating the Iron I|IIa transition in 3 different ways (twice independently by the measurements obtained at the 2 labs and then by combining the dates of both) indicates that the lower chronology is the preferable one.
    Dating the Iron Age I/II Transition in Israel: First Intercomparison Results

    That is even lower than what Finkelstein proposed. Taking just this one line of the mutually supporting streams of data, explain how one reasonably arrives at a date of 1000 BCE for the Iron I/II transition:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    And Finkelstein has denied there was A King David in any meaningful sense. If he has now been willing to admit there was, is that potential archeological find with a reference to the House of David might make that position untenable, so he is simply hedging his bet if he find proves genuine.
    I don't know for certain what you mean by "meaningful sense", but this claim doesn't make sense. Finkelstein's The Archaeology of the United Monarchy: an Alternative View was published in 1996. Both parts of the Tel Dan Stele had been found by 1994, Finkelstein was well aware of it at the time.

    This is exactly what he said in that first paper:

    Needless to say, all this has nothing to do with the question of the historicity of the United Monarchy. The kingdom of David and Solomon could have been a chiefdom, or an early state, in a stage of territorial expansion, but with no monumental construction and advanced administration. Examples of such a historical polity are abundant, for instance the early phase of the history of the Ottoman Turks. They can also be found in the history of Palestine, for example in the large territorial entity of Shechem of the Amarna period.
    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    Finkelstein only acknowledged the Omrides because he has no choice, since there is solid archeological evidence for their existence, and he can't push the dates for the structures found any later than he has. Finkelstein would be denying the exist of Ahab and the other Israelite and Judean king's if he could, but unfortunately actual archeological evidence doesn't allow him to. In the 19th century, predecessors of Finkelstein were saying that all of the history in the Bible was completely a myth, and that none of the kids of Israel and Judea in the Bible existed. They only retreated from that stance when actual archeology showed them to be wrong. Theirs and Finkelstein assumption unless there is positive archeological evidence, then what ver the Bible said must be unhistorifsl. Only if there is solid archeology that prevents them from denying that something was unhistorical will they acknowledge that it was. Finkelstein would be denying the biblical account of the Assyrian Siege of Jerusalem if rhe Assyrian accounts hadn't been found corroborating the biblical ones.
    I'm not sure where you get all this insight into Finkelstein's motivations and modus operandi. I've known him since 2013. I literally learned field archaeology from him, and I don't recognize your characterization. His arguments aren't based on lack of positive archaeological evidence alone, but negative archaeological evidence as well. That is there are things you would expect to see if an empire was ruled from Jerusalem that can't be found when you look for them. You would also expect that there would at least be some sign of Judahite material culture at the copper mines in Timna, yet it appears to have been an entirely Edomite operation. None of that means David and Solomon didn't exist, but it does suggest their stories have been exaggerated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    The accuracy of such details as the Assyrian Siege of Jerusalem ans Hezekiah's building of a water tunnel implies that who ever wrote those accounts had to have some kind of historical records available to them.
    As I said in my previous post, the Book of Kings relies on the Book of the Annals of the Kings of Israel and the Book of the Annals of the Kings of Judah. It is not surprising that whatever elaborations the author(s) engaged in would be more accurate the closer they are to the time it was written.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Julian King, the British EU commissioner for security, has had to admit that the UK have been abusing the Schengen system for years, making illegal copies of classified personal information from the Schengen Information System (SIS) database reserved for members of the Schengen states.
    Even though Britain isn't part of Schengen, they had nevertheless received limited access to this system.

    The leaked classified report detailing this states that the UK violations "constitute serious and immediate risks to the integrity and security of SIS data as well as for the data subjects."

    Worse still, it also decided to share the information with US based companies. Which, due to the Patriot act, means the US have free access to those.
    Their sloppy handling of the data also means that leaks of private information is even more likely, and that the numerous copies of it are often out of date, given that the database itself is constantly being updated, but the copies aren't, so erroneous arrests can occur.

    Data on SIS includes, amongst other things, finger prints, photos, car license numbers, 500000 arrest warrants for personae non grata, and a lot more.

    The UK wants to keep their access to the system and have announced they'll continue to store and use the stolen data.

    Violating the rights of citisens of member states after explicitly having promised not to do so and even promising to continue this is about as much of a d...move as it gets.



    This is just the latest example for the UK being completely untrustworthy in any international dealings. Let's get this over with and kick the US lapdog out.

    Sauces:
    https://euobserver.com/justice/145530
    https://www.heise.de/newsticker/meld...n-4481596.html

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