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Thread: Does anybody use siege units in a campaign? And kudos for mod devs for AI improvement

  1. #1

    Icon5 Does anybody use siege units in a campaign? And kudos for mod devs for AI improvement

    First - kudos.

    As Kartli the biggest threat for me was Arche Bosphorus. A strong faction, which prefers to expand to south east. Declares war early on, is loved by other Greeks, so follow up wars are imminent.

    I took a region from them. And repelled two attempts to take it back by utilizing my full stack fleet. Garrison was nearly non-existent and was used as a bait in my cheese tactic.
    So, AI has suffered 2 defeats from a fleet. Next two attacks from AI came with 2 units of siege weapons in each! And AI managed to destroy several of my ships with these siege machines.

    AI has definitely been improved. Another example: now when it sees imminent danger to it's region, it keeps his armies massed in, usually in fortified stance.

    Thank you devs for making a HUGE difference!

    Now about siege weapons.

    I've tried scorpions in my army. They got under 80 kills during the course of the entire battle. And it did more harm than good. Because AI, when it sees siege units, makes a zerg rush at you. It's a correct tactic, much better than standing idle while receiving damage without ability to return the favor.
    And this is precisely what it very bad for me. Because it prevents me from taking favorable ground before initiating an attack. If there is no siege units, normally AI let's you maneuver your troops before fight commences.
    This becomes critical if I have a supporting army. And I normally do. I try to follow The Art of War advises and bring overwhelming numbers. In such cases I merge two armies in single huge one. And it takes time.

    And also siege units are hideously expensive.

    So, does anybody has a story of good use for siege units?

    I could see them used while assaulting walled cities, but I never had problems without siege units.
    Last edited by DC0; July 24, 2019 at 05:21 AM.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Does anybody use siege units in a campaign? And kudos for mod devs for AI improvement

    I use scorpions as Rome mostly for roleplaying. But you should be aware that the kill count significantly understates their value. Not only do most units’ kills come in the seconds after an enemy breaks (even without chasing down routers) which doesn’t apply to siege units. But also when used properly your scorpion should be sniping the enemy’s toughest elites and/or general. So killing 40% of an elite unit and maybe routing them without taking any casualties of your own is very valuable. Much more than killing 80 levies for example.

    Our play style is different though. I always expect to be outnumbered 2-1 and to need to win that battle with few enough casualties that I can defeat at least another 1 full stack on the AI’s turn as well.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Does anybody use siege units in a campaign? And kudos for mod devs for AI improvement

    For regular battle armies I use 1 ballistae, for siege armies i use 2 ballistae/1 bal and 1 onager as well as a scorpion. Unfortunately, imo, the biggest benefit to siege weapons is that the enemy will almost always attack you, whether or not you're defending or not. As far as kills are concerned, as vanputten pointed out, they get about the same kills as a correctly positioned archer might get, but if you use them well, you can get those kills on units that matter more than others, such as the enemy's elites or general.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Does anybody use siege units in a campaign? And kudos for mod devs for AI improvement

    Scorpions can be devastating in siege assaults, despite claims to the contrary. You need to angle them correctly, so that they are lined up with a wall in a way that you are hitting soldiers from their side/flank.

    T >>> :::::::::

    So position the scorpions at the corner of the fortification, where you intend to push. The advantage is that when they are on the wall, they have to stand there and get shot, if they fall back then you can move your ladders in and take the walls easily. Or as units rout you can hold fire til replacements come and shoot them.

    Does anyone know how to get the scorpions with wheels as Rome though? I got to the first set of reforms but still couldn't train them.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Does anybody use siege units in a campaign? And kudos for mod devs for AI improvement

    Not convinced. Having your assault armies slowed down by presence of siege units is not worth several kills they might get while shooting into the flank of enemies on the walls.
    Normally I use somewhat cheese tactic what taking walled cities. First army just stands there and harasses defenders with archers and slingers. While keeping attention of defending units.
    Reinforcing army actually climbs onto walls and does all the capturing work.

    This tactic used to be real cheese. Because AI would just sit where it got initially spawned. But with new AI these guys started to really move around the city. Actually defending it. So when I see that defenders started to vacate the walls, my first army also climbs the wall to hit defenders in the back.

    And I find javelineers much, much more useful, compared to siege units. They can move around the battlefield fast. I normally move them around to hit enemy elite units in the back. No more javelins? No problem, they run down fleeing enemy. Because javelineers move fast. Same goes for all ranged units. Just move them around the enemy and hit them in flank and back. Cost effective.

  6. #6
    Ygraine's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Does anybody use siege units in a campaign? And kudos for mod devs for AI improvement

    Quote Originally Posted by DC0 View Post
    Not convinced. Having your assault armies slowed down by presence of siege units is not worth several kills they might get while shooting into the flank of enemies on the walls.
    Normally I use somewhat cheese tactic what taking walled cities. First army just stands there and harasses defenders with archers and slingers. While keeping attention of defending units.
    Reinforcing army actually climbs onto walls and does all the capturing work.

    This tactic used to be real cheese. Because AI would just sit where it got initially spawned. But with new AI these guys started to really move around the city. Actually defending it. So when I see that defenders started to vacate the walls, my first army also climbs the wall to hit defenders in the back.

    And I find javelineers much, much more useful, compared to siege units. They can move around the battlefield fast. I normally move them around to hit enemy elite units in the back. No more javelins? No problem, they run down fleeing enemy. Because javelineers move fast. Same goes for all ranged units. Just move them around the enemy and hit them in flank and back. Cost effective.
    Unfortunately BAI isn't really moddable, with the exception of using line of sight to modify their behaviour somewhat. What you're referring to is most likely CA's changes to the BAI in their final patch, since AI defenders changed their behaviour in sieges around that time.
    (2nd position - Gameplay Mods-category - 2016 Modding Awards.)

  7. #7

    Default Re: Does anybody use siege units in a campaign? And kudos for mod devs for AI improvement

    Scorpions scare away big bad horse archer stacks

  8. #8

    Default Re: Does anybody use siege units in a campaign? And kudos for mod devs for AI improvement

    Oh, playing as Kartli, I know precisely well about big bad horse archer hordes. As they surround my starting position and declare war early. After several trials I know the best tactic against them. When conquering steppe tribes, in their stack you will see 20 horse archer units, among them 2-4 decent chargers (the ones with horns attached to horses). Composition of the army that work best against them is simple: 5 foot archers, 4 slingers, 2 javelins, 1 general on horse, 6 levy spears, 2 swords with thrown axes. And then concentrate fire of at least 3 of your range units on 1 of their unit. Their horse archers melt like snow.
    And of course it takes a lot of micromanaging, because AI tries to charge into your archers. So you have to hide them behind spears. Against flanking chargers I have 1 javelin and 1 swordsman on each flank. Normally flanking chargers survive approximately 2 charges before they are decimated and flee. My swordsman survive quite well.
    Normally I lose like 300 men to their 3000. Depending on how well I manage to avoid friendly fire.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Does anybody use siege units in a campaign? And kudos for mod devs for AI improvement

    Quote Originally Posted by DC0 View Post
    Not convinced. Having your assault armies slowed down by presence of siege units is not worth several kills they might get while shooting into the flank of enemies on the walls.
    Normally I use somewhat cheese tactic what taking walled cities. First army just stands there and harasses defenders with archers and slingers. While keeping attention of defending units.
    Reinforcing army actually climbs onto walls and does all the capturing work.

    This tactic used to be real cheese. Because AI would just sit where it got initially spawned. But with new AI these guys started to really move around the city. Actually defending it. So when I see that defenders started to vacate the walls, my first army also climbs the wall to hit defenders in the back.

    And I find javelineers much, much more useful, compared to siege units. They can move around the battlefield fast. I normally move them around to hit enemy elite units in the back. No more javelins? No problem, they run down fleeing enemy. Because javelineers move fast. Same goes for all ranged units. Just move them around the enemy and hit them in flank and back. Cost effective.
    I agree that siege engines are not that fun to take on campaigns, ballistas vs AI is boring, but sieges are also boring when you exploit the AI. Maybe you could play with house rules to avoid cheese tactics, say, you have to push only one side of the city, in that case artillary is pretty damn useful and realistic. You might get more entertaining sieges.

    Also its not about hitting enemies from their side but shooting the formation with a large vertical surface area if that makes sense, negating the wall.
    Last edited by ♔Greek Strategos♔; July 26, 2019 at 08:20 AM. Reason: Merged posts.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Does anybody use siege units in a campaign? And kudos for mod devs for AI improvement

    Attacking from many sides is a standard tactic to overstretch and thin out enemy defense. No cheese here. I wrote "somewhat cheese", but now, thinking about it, AI is performing well in defense. If it was moving his troops around the town at first sign of "real" breach, he would get exploited into fatigue really fast.
    I'm not looking into way to "artificially" get my life miserable and hard in game. I've also seen people imposing stupid limitations on themselves while playing a game. The most notorious one I've ever encountered in my life was "knife only" walkthrough of Jagged Alliance 2. Not my cup of tea.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Does anybody use siege units in a campaign? And kudos for mod devs for AI improvement

    Ballistas kill people. End of story. If they can keep firing throughout a battle, they may get around 400-500 kills each. My primary army normally has at least two of them so that he can take walled cities quickly.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Does anybody use siege units in a campaign? And kudos for mod devs for AI improvement

    What kind of self respecting Roman army doesn't have engines of war? Ballistas save you a turn of siege prep at the very least, letting you breach the wall without a tortoise. If you're going to storm the walls, taking out the guard towers will greatly reduce the casualties you suffer,.
    Polybolos are really good in field battles, I send out my light cavalry to harass, then when they send their cavalry after mine, I withdraw into range of the polybolos and their horses get mowed down. Once the armies engage, I target the enemy archers so my skirmishers are freed up to flank the enemies main line. It's also really strong at firing into sections of your line that are already lost, the combination of close range and densely packed enemy troops is devastating.
    Scorpions are really strong if you can hide them on the flanks to deliver enfilade fire along the enemy line while they're engaged with your troops. On sieges, scorpions are good for softening enemy resistance after you create a breach. Position the breach in line with a road leading to the victory point, and your scorpion will have plenty good opportunities.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Does anybody use siege units in a campaign? And kudos for mod devs for AI improvement

    It is sad that AI always rushes to you if you have siege units. They gave up great defensive positions and you basically control the rhythm of every battle. It is also gets pretty boring to see same battle scenario, I wish something could be done about it.

    There is many ways to cheese in this game but an army with a general, cav, two archers, eight spearmen and eight ballistas are destroying anything. Sometimes it is fun too. For siege armies I use couple of ballista but usually I play without them for a reason mentioned above.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Does anybody use siege units in a campaign? And kudos for mod devs for AI improvement

    As some have said, artillery changes battles considerably mainly because it forces the AI to attack. Especially as player of Hellenic armies having the defensive position is a kind of auto-win button. I have the rule to have only one artillery at max in my armies. Normally I siege for several turns and then auto calculate. I have to admit that I have abused catapults mainly in battles against unwalled towns, to avoid autocal casualties and end the boring affairs soon at the same time.

    A ballista is much better than all the rest of the artillery. It sits comfortably behind the lines and can be devastating if it shoots along the enemy lines, often thick blobs, when they are stymied before the own battle line. My wish were that you could not move them around on the battlefield at least, as the big pieces were very heavy and immobile. But the main artillery problem, forcing the attack, would not be solved by this.

    It could be solved by giving artillery to the AI, as it does not go into attack berserking with own artillery present (my experience from some battles). However, as artillery in field battles was extremely seldomly used (in the timeframe), and never by "barbarians", that would not be a good solution.
    Last edited by geala; August 01, 2019 at 03:49 AM.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Does anybody use siege units in a campaign? And kudos for mod devs for AI improvement

    Could all the general body guard units be given a "siege engine" flag or something to stop the AI from rushing?

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