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Thread: Are we killing the evolution of other animals?

  1. #1
    AqD's Avatar (~‾▿‾)~
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    Icon3 Are we killing the evolution of other animals?

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    And the Chimp war


    Some animals clearly have intelligence and ability to form complex society and develop further - possibly. But since we dominate the earth now and most animals are either living in zoos, farms, huntable fields, or just dying due to shrinking territory, it has simply become impossible, e.g. for chimps to form clans of hundreds and do what they please without human involvement.

    This may sound funny but it took humans millions of years to evolve from brainless drooling creatures, and if you leave a baby growing up in the wild it'd end up no better than monkeys.

    What do you think? I say we should set some forbidden area for wild animals to evolve (maybe leave them TVs). It could result in something very interesting after another million years and we might actually witness how a prototype society evolves.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Are we killing the evolution of other animals?

    It's a flawed assumption that increased intelligence is the direction other animals would be evolving in if not for human presence. Likewise, by putting stress on other species humans are no doubt increasing selective pressure on many species. In other words, humans are increasing the rate at which many other species will adapt. However, for some the pressure will be too much too fast, and thus extinction will be the result. There have been winners and losers. In North America for example, you probably know the losers, but the winners include crows, raccoons, and coyotes. All species for which living in urban environments has been a net gain.
    Last edited by sumskilz; September 01, 2019 at 02:16 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  3. #3

    Default Re: Are we killing the evolution of other animals?

    Evolution has always been a slow process. And we're not stopping it. They're evolving right alongside us no matter what they go through.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Are we killing the evolution of other animals?

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    From



    And the Chimp war


    Some animals clearly have intelligence and ability to form complex society and develop further - possibly. But since we dominate the earth now and most animals are either living in zoos, farms, huntable fields, or just dying due to shrinking territory, it has simply become impossible, e.g. for chimps to form clans of hundreds and do what they please without human involvement.

    This may sound funny but it took humans millions of years to evolve from brainless drooling creatures, and if you leave a baby growing up in the wild it'd end up no better than monkeys.

    What do you think? I say we should set some forbidden area for wild animals to evolve (maybe leave them TVs). It could result in something very interesting after another million years and we might actually witness how a prototype society evolves.
    I would say yes, the same way that existing species suppress the evolution of other species occupying the same ecological niche. Mammals.didnt occupy many ecological niches until after the dinosaurs died out. Dinosaurs we're suppressing mammal evolution in a number of areas. Bird evolution in a number of flightless niches is suppressed by the presence of mammals.

    Humans occupy the ecological niche of intelligent species, and humans have either killed off or absorbed other intelligent species, most which have been related species to homo sapiens. So yes, I think what was said has merit.

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    Default Re: Are we killing the evolution of other animals?

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    but the winners include crows, raccoons, and coyotes. All species for which living in urban environments has been a net gain.
    But the more intelligent ones need space to form bigger societies to facility real development. We didn't really do much until agriculture and urbanization. Our society obviously played a critical role and it's the main concern here (instead of all forms of evolution), because we basically own all the space on this planet now.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Are we killing the evolution of other animals?

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    But the more intelligent ones need space to form bigger societies to facility real development. We didn't really do much until agriculture and urbanization. Our society obviously played a critical role and it's the main concern here (instead of all forms of evolution), because we basically own all the space on this planet now.
    I don't agree. Humans, even before agriculture had become the Apex predator, and most widely ranging of all animals. Even as Hunter gatherers, humans lived in more environments than any other animal, from the Arctic to the tropics, and spread to 6 of the 7 continents. No other animal species could say the same. And that was all before agriculture.

    When it comes to intelligence, it is humans ability to make tools mated to our intelligence that has made us top dog in the animal kingdom. No other animal matches human in tool making ability. Even chimps hands do not have the same dexterity as human hands when it comes to tool making. It is our ability to make tools like rifles which allow us to hunt tigers, not just our intellect.

    Human bipedalism is the key - it freed up our hands for tool making in a way that chimp's hands, since to they were also used for locomotion, could not be.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Are we killing the evolution of other animals?

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    But the more intelligent ones need space to form bigger societies to facility real development. We didn't really do much until agriculture and urbanization. Our society obviously played a critical role and it's the main concern here (instead of all forms of evolution), because we basically own all the space on this planet now.
    With regard to the things humans are good at, which is really what you're talking about, our ancestors were much further along 2 million years ago than any species is today. But as you point out, humans didn't take up much space until the last 10,000 years. We didn't have a head start. At the point just prior to our ancestors diverging from any given primate species for example, we were in the exact same position. If they were headed toward intelligence and tool use on par with ours, what the hell have they been doing all this time?
    Last edited by sumskilz; September 04, 2019 at 06:54 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


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    Default Re: Are we killing the evolution of other animals?

    Someone already taught apes to ride pigs.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2J9x6DsxTU

    Every day we stray further from God. What if the Japanese apes begin riding radioactive boars? WHAT THEN?

    As for human effect on evolution, we do place enormous evolutionary pressure on every ecosystem on Earth as Sumskilz points out. This has got to the point that human existence is a mass extinction event. Mass extinction events are usually followed by a great flowering of evolutionary development as new forms take advantage of new niches.

    The winners mentioned above, crows raccoons and coyotes etc are all intelligent species. I would say the number 1 winner from human expansion is the rat, they are now on every continent bar one (and IIRC they infest sub-Antarctic islands too so with global warming its only a matter of time).

    Cockroaches and flies have done well too as has the immensely stupid pigeon. All these examples are reproducing at a fantastic rate: the opportunity for mutation and the immense resources to sustain new forms suggests many new (probably scav) species will evolve in response to human activity. We consciously control the evolution of many species into weird new forms, eg muscly cows, super woolly sheep and pigs with squid genes so they glow..in the dark...wtf?

    There's a few more points. We're liberating a lot of sequestered carbon, a basic building block of life, as well as a a lot of radioactive material. This means there's more raw material for life and more pressure to mutate. We should expect a tidal wave of new forms (in the evolutionary short to middle term).

    The final point is our high rate of extinction will likely lead to odd outcomes. We've seen how the removal of apex predators damages entire ecosystems; there's a concept of keystone species whose activity irreplaceably sustains ecosystems and whose removal uncorks unimaginable change. The obvious example here is bees but there are others too. There may be small pockets of dangerous life forms kept in check by other keystone species we are busy removing. Imagine a tiny population of super toxic squid which is preyed upon by certain immune reef fish and barely survives year-to-year: suddenly the reefs die, the reef fish disappear and the squid takes over the sea. That's an extreme example but in Australia we're familiar with destructive invasive species like rabbits, foxes, cane toads and prickly pear. In their own countries they are held in check but if the checks are removed...ecological disaster.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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