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Thread: What more would you want to add to EBII?

  1. #61

    Default Re: What more would you want to add to EBII?

    I'm curious about the regionals. Does the EBII team have any plans to add any more regionals to Hellas, India, and Iran? I was specifically wondering about Aitolian Horsemen, whom Polybius claimed became the best riders in Hellas by the time of the second Roman-Macedonian War, Messenian Indians who were described as the fiercest of the Indians Alexander III fought, and I'm just wondering where the famous Immortals went.

  2. #62
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Gatorade, is it in you?
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    Default Re: What more would you want to add to EBII?

    The Persian Achaemenid Empire maintained elite units of "immortals" well before the EBII time frame, as explained by the Greek historian and "father of history" Herodotus. As far as I know the Hellenistic Seleucids did not use a similar type of troop at all and it is the Seleucid Empire that we play with in the game. The Seleucids recruited some native Iranian soldiers, but none of them were organized in this way from what I can tell (a unit of native Persians numbering 10,000 and trained as elite infantry in non-Greek tactics and forming an Imperial Guard). If I recall correctly, the Persian name of the "immortals" wasn't revived in Persia until the Sasanian Empire, well after the Parthian Empire had fallen to them, but it was used for a totally unrelated cavalry unit, not even infantry as described by Herodotus.

  3. #63

    Default Re: What more would you want to add to EBII?

    True, the time in which the Immortals were recorded to appear was...ancient history, by EBII's time frame. I was mostly referring to the Immortals as a famous example of Iranian armoured infantry. Besides, you can still recruit Assyrian heavy infantry, and Hayastan has the Dranik Gund. Is there really no evidence for armoured Iranian infantry in EBII's time period?

  4. #64
    Marvzilla's Avatar Ducenarius
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    Default Re: What more would you want to add to EBII?

    The Kardakan seem to fill that role.

  5. #65

    Default Re: What more would you want to add to EBII?

    Granted, Kardakan do qualify as armoured line infantry. I was thinking more along the line of an elite formation, like the Dranik Gund.

  6. #66
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: What more would you want to add to EBII?

    Quote Originally Posted by BailianSteel View Post
    Granted, Kardakan do qualify as armoured line infantry. I was thinking more along the line of an elite formation, like the Dranik Gund.
    There isn't anything, and why would there be? The power controlling Iran was Hellenistic, and they used Makedonian settlers for their main heavy infantry. Iranian elites served as cavalry, not infantry.

  7. #67
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    Default Re: What more would you want to add to EBII?

    The question about more AoR units got swept away a bit so I will ask again as well: Are there going to be more regionals ? I dont know how many unit slots are open anymore. This question is about ones not in the EDC currently, like the Volcae units etc.

  8. #68
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    Default Re: What more would you want to add to EBII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Marvzilla View Post
    The question about more AoR units got swept away a bit so I will ask again as well: Are there going to be more regionals ? I dont know how many unit slots are open anymore. This question is about ones not in the EDC currently, like the Volcae units etc.
    Yes, especially for the eastern steppe, but there are more to come for the Celtic, African and Italic regions, and a few more eastern and Iberian ones.

  9. #69

    Default Re: What more would you want to add to EBII?

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    There isn't anything, and why would there be? The power controlling Iran was Hellenistic, and they used Makedonian settlers for their main heavy infantry. Iranian elites served as cavalry, not infantry.
    I wouldn't know, that's why I'm asking. New stuff comes up all the time and I thought it was worth looking into.

  10. #70

    Default Re: What more would you want to add to EBII?

    Michael Taylor, citing Bar Kochba, has the silver shield phalanx as 10,000 professionals and speculates that they "may represent an administrative survival from the Achaemenid military tradition". Not exactly an Iranian unit, but then, as pointed out above, the Seleucid kingdom was not Iranian. At least, if you accept Taylor's idea, the immortals are still around in spirit!

  11. #71
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: What more would you want to add to EBII?

    Quote Originally Posted by samba_liten View Post
    Michael Taylor, citing Bar Kochba, has the silver shield phalanx as 10,000 professionals and speculates that they "may represent an administrative survival from the Achaemenid military tradition". Not exactly an Iranian unit, but then, as pointed out above, the Seleucid kingdom was not Iranian. At least, if you accept Taylor's idea, the immortals are still around in spirit!
    What exactly has he cited? I've got the impression that we're so short of any credible source (the Talmud-related information was obviously produced for different reasons than conveing historical truth) that we're even not sure if there's a serious uprising or just one of many mundane rebellions that happened occassionaly in the area (see Menahem Mor, The Second Jewish Revolt, Brill, 2016)

  12. #72

    Default Re: What more would you want to add to EBII?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    What exactly has he cited? I've got the impression that we're so short of any credible source (the Talmud-related information was obviously produced for different reasons than conveing historical truth) that we're even not sure if there's a serious uprising or just one of many mundane rebellions that happened occassionaly in the area (see Menahem Mor, The Second Jewish Revolt, Brill, 2016)
    Page 9 in "The Seleucid Army", which is all about the organization of the Seleucid army (surprise!) under Antiochus III, Magnesia, to be precise. Bar Kochba simply states that the Agyraspides usually numbered 10,000, and therefore are likely to be the unnamed 10,000 troops in Livy.

    In the chapter on Magnesia, later in the book, which p.9 directs us to, he states that "some sources" suggest the standard strength of 10,000, but provides no note to elaborate.

  13. #73

    Default Re: What more would you want to add to EBII?

    It is well attested that the seleucids made use of local traditions and myths, imbuing themselves in this local folklore to legitimise themselves. As macedonians, they likely knew the histories about the persians from Herodotus, the myth of their immortal royal guards - they were "immortal" because they were always at full strength, as any losses would be immediately replaced, so any damage would be healed. The seleucid likely reused this persian idea because it suited what they wanted to convey: a powerful monarch that has a full corps always at his disposal, always in full strength. That aura of invincibility, or at least immortality, would help deter rivals and impress friends alike. As we know, this immortal myth was combined with the name and panoplia used, based on the silver shields of alexander, a unit which had a strong reputation for martial excellence during the diadochi wars.

    By taking and combining these two concepts, the seleucids kings were saying their royal guard were the descendants of the best of alexander troops, and they were now immortal in their new duty - any wound inflicted in them would self heal. They would always be a threat to any usurper or foreign enemy, due to carrying the traditions of the best macedonians soldiers who ever lived, and being always combat ready - effectively immortal as a unit.

    Now, none of this was the truth in the slightest, as they suffered the same manpower issues as every other hellenistic kingdom in the east. My hipothesis is that rather than being an administrative thing, it was used on purpose to give the royal guards an aura of invincibility, thus protecting the most vital person to the continued existence of the seleucid state, the monarch. The Sassanids also used the Achaemenid idea of the immortals (Zhayedan), creating a strong royal guard that in theory was also always combat ready (never below 10.000) and ever-vigilant for the interests of the king.

  14. #74

    Default Re: What more would you want to add to EBII?

    Well now that we've got Achaemenid fever, here's another thing I'd like to see: Satrap traits/ancillaries. Name change with Strategos for Hellenic factions. For swift implementation perhaps we could have a generic Satrap/Strategos trait, similar to the various Hellenic offices. Ideally we'd have an Ancillary similar to the Roman Provincia: historical notes if they could be found, various benefits, and probably a reduction to loyalty thanks to all that power.

  15. #75
    QuintusSertorius's Avatar EBII Hod Carrier
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    Default Re: What more would you want to add to EBII?

    Quote Originally Posted by BailianSteel View Post
    Well now that we've got Achaemenid fever, here's another thing I'd like to see: Satrap traits/ancillaries. Name change with Strategos for Hellenic factions. For swift implementation perhaps we could have a generic Satrap/Strategos trait, similar to the various Hellenic offices. Ideally we'd have an Ancillary similar to the Roman Provincia: historical notes if they could be found, various benefits, and probably a reduction to loyalty thanks to all that power.
    Satrapies are coming soon...

  16. #76
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: What more would you want to add to EBII?

    Quote Originally Posted by samba_liten View Post
    Page 9 in "The Seleucid Army", which is all about the organization of the Seleucid army (surprise!) under Antiochus III, Magnesia, to be precise. Bar Kochba simply states that the Agyraspides usually numbered 10,000, and therefore are likely to be the unnamed 10,000 troops in Livy.

    In the chapter on Magnesia, later in the book, which p.9 directs us to, he states that "some sources" suggest the standard strength of 10,000, but provides no note to elaborate.
    Ok, thanks for the info, I didn't know historian Bar Kochba, I thought you're referring to the Second Jewish war. Sorry for my ignorance.

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Satrapies are coming soon...
    Is there any more info about this mechanism? :-)

  17. #77

    Default Re: What more would you want to add to EBII?

    Am i here only one, who would like to see getting Kingetos/ similar traits for barbaian youths automaticaly after winning a battle. Especially with negative odds and characters being smart, charismatic and healthy getting all those poor Kingetos, barely passed a test etc. make me sick. So wasting time with character, wandering through all my territory untill character is exhausted is equal( he gets same, maybe even better odds in dice roll) as fighting a full stacks battle and win.... Literally everyone, with whom i fought a battle got poor man trait. For Getai it is even worse, as they have to have guys outside of settlement in age, when education trait is decided. I hate dice roll aspect so much in all games, and imo this isn't a game where it belongs into. The less, the better.
    Last edited by Maroslav; Yesterday at 03:06 PM.

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