View Poll Results: Should foreign criminals be deported?

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  • yes, for any crime

    11 44.00%
  • yes, but only for serious crimes

    10 40.00%
  • no

    4 16.00%
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Thread: Should criminal foreigners be deported?

  1. #1

    Default Should criminal foreigners be deported?

    I am genuinely interested to know the reasoning for why they shouldn't be deported. I can mostly understand the logic even if I don't agree with it, but for this issue I seriously can't think of any reason. Except for these reasons of course, which I do understand:

    * They face death, torture or something similar if they are deported

    *We dont know where they come from.

    But there are many cases where neither of those apply, and it's those I'm interested in hearing why they should be allowed to stay in the country. So please enlighten me. Now if you don't think this is happening, I can tell you that only something like 10-20% of foreign rapists are deported from Sweden (depending on definitions).
    https://www.bra.se/download/18.25f91..._2000-2014.pdf

    If you can't think of a reason to keep them here either, then maybe you have ideas why many governments, notably Sweden, only deport a minority of criminal foreigners.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Should criminal foreigners be deported?

    "Crimes of Moral Turpitude" are what tends to get immigrants, even those with green cards, deported in the US. And it's hard to go much deeper than that because it's not well defined. Courts have weighed in on the matter over time, and the State Department's guidance says they shall include "fraud, larceny, and intent to harm persons or things". That wording right there means, really, dishonesty, robbery, assault with intent to harm, and well, lets go right on down to aggravated DUI will get you deported.
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  3. #3
    Settra's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Should criminal foreigners be deported?

    I believe that any non-citizen or dual-citizenship immigrants should be deported for any infraction (not for contraventions though) and banned from entering the country for a period equal to the jail sentence they would get. Repeat offenders should get perma-banned.

    The state should not pay for the upkeep of foreign criminals, let the home country handle them as it wishes.
    Last edited by Settra; July 20, 2019 at 05:05 PM.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Should criminal foreigners be deported?

    Yes but also immigration advocates should be legally responsible for the crimes committed by migrants.

  5. #5
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Should criminal foreigners be deported?

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Yes but also immigration advocates should be legally responsible for the crimes committed by migrants.
    Err that is not logical. So the NRA should be held accountable every time there is a gun crime, All anti abortion activists when one of theirs kills a doctor, or explodes a bomb...
    Last edited by conon394; July 20, 2019 at 07:21 PM.
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  6. #6
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    Default Re: Should criminal foreigners be deported?

    I don't see the point of deporting serious criminals like rapists, since they'll just attack women in their home countries. Best to just kill them and be done with it.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Should criminal foreigners be deported?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Err that is not logical. So the NRA should be held accountable every time there is a gun crime, All anti abortion activists when one of theirs kills a doctor, or explodes a bomb...
    The fundamental problem with the pro-immigration crowd is that they dump the costs on others. The solution is make the pro-immigration crowd pay for the problems caused by immigration. If you really think that anti-abortion terrorism is anywhere near comparable to the problems caused by immigration, then liberal mathematics must suck way more than I thought.

    Gun crime on the other hand happens just as much if not more in Democratic dominated areas with gun restriction, hence your point is invalid.

  8. #8
    Commissar Caligula_'s Avatar The Ecstasy of Potatoes
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    Default Re: Should criminal foreigners be deported?

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    I believe that any non-citizen or dual-citizenship immigrants should be deported for any infraction (not for contraventions though) and banned from entering the country for a period equal to the jail sentence they would get. Repeat offenders should get perma-banned.

    The state should not pay for the upkeep of foreign criminals, let the home country handle them as it wishes.
    Why should the home country have to deal with them however? They might not have broken any laws in that home country, and they might not have lived in that home country for like 30 years.

    They broke the laws of X country, X country either has to enforce the law in an equal way as they would full citizens, or not enforce the law.

    Imo people should only be deported if they commit very serious crimes that are incompatible with them staying in that country, for example terrorism or hate crimes. Deporting someone just because they assaulted someone is ridiculous.
    Also, people shouldn't be deported if the country to which they would be deported would enforce a much harsher sentence, for example the death penalty.




  9. #9

    Default Re: Should criminal foreigners be deported?

    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar Caligula_ View Post
    Why should the home country have to deal with them however? They might not have broken any laws in that home country, and they might not have lived in that home country for like 30 years.

    They broke the laws of X country, X country either has to enforce the law in an equal way as they would full citizens, or not enforce the law.

    Imo people should only be deported if they commit very serious crimes that are incompatible with them staying in that country, for example terrorism or hate crimes. Deporting someone just because they assaulted someone is ridiculous.
    Also, people shouldn't be deported if the country to which they would be deported would enforce a much harsher sentence, for example the death penalty.
    The pattern I've typically seen at least in the more publicly known cases is that they're deported after serving their sentence.
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  10. #10
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Should criminal foreigners be deported?

    I don't think the broad deportation for any infraction for all classes of non citizen of resident is good ideal or even a very rational one. For any legal non citizen resident the crime should be tried and punished in the US. Misdemeanors or minor should not involve deportation/expulsion. I would say Felonies raise the option but should be the parvenu of the court sentencing and not a hard rule. Notably with somebody who gas a legal status presumably you can do an effective background check of their past and put the crime in context. For illegals I would lean toward saying if local law does not ask and they (illegals) don't tell I comfortable with misdemeanors sliding, but than again how do know danny boy might just have got his first DUI, but under a different name is wanted ex IRA back in the UK [a minor assault charge out of a bar fight where everyone dropped charges might look different with a known string of assaults in the UK past for example]? So I suppose maybe the dichotomy should tickets OK, everything else time/penalty here and probably facing deportation for major felonies certainly, misdemeanor possible. I'd be in favor of more leniency on those with expired credentials because you have a sense of what they where back home (and also allow some chance to try and reestablish some kind of US credentials).

    The fundamental problem with the pro-immigration crowd is that they dump the costs on others. The solution is make the pro-immigration crowd pay for the problems caused by immigration. If you really think that anti-abortion terrorism is anywhere near comparable to the problems caused by immigration, then liberal mathematics must suck way more than I thought.
    What costs?

    Gun crime on the other hand happens just as much if not more in Democratic dominated areas with gun restriction, hence your point is invalid.
    Not really

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firear...tates_by_state

    or more directly CDC

    https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/pressroom/s...ty/firearm.htm

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    I believe that any non-citizen or dual-citizenship immigrants should be deported for any infraction
    That not logical or reasonable. First anyone with a valid visa or residency status of any type should be tried and punish in the country that let them in legally. Yrou system in many cases would likely see people avoid any punishment (potentially quite significant ones if the destination county of deportation has limited laws for extraterritorial jurisdiction). There is reason countries have extradition treaties.
    Last edited by conon394; July 21, 2019 at 09:36 AM.
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  11. #11
    Cookiegod's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Should criminal foreigners be deported?

    Quote Originally Posted by Commissar Caligula_ View Post
    Why should the home country have to deal with them however? They might not have broken any laws in that home country, and they might not have lived in that home country for like 30 years.

    They broke the laws of X country, X country either has to enforce the law in an equal way as they would full citizens, or not enforce the law.

    Imo people should only be deported if they commit very serious crimes that are incompatible with them staying in that country, for example terrorism or hate crimes. Deporting someone just because they assaulted someone is ridiculous.
    Also, people shouldn't be deported if the country to which they would be deported would enforce a much harsher sentence, for example the death penalty.
    You're making one important mistake here: Deportation isn't ordered as a punishment, but as a sensible measure to protect the own citisens of a country from further harm, and to minimise the burden caused by the criminal. They still get sentenced normally, and the whether or not they'll be deported afterwards will not have any influence on their actual sentencing.

    Calling deportation a punishment would be harsh on most countries. I found out that deportation is standard practice even inside the EU very recently. A friend of mine got raped a few months ago, the man who did it got the usual prison sentence plus a deportation from Denmark to Romania. Which again, I think is fairly reasonable not only because of the crime.
    First of all, you can expect people to have a better functioning social network/family at home to aid them in their rehabilitation. If they are career criminals, they will either have to rebuild from scratch or, if part of organised crime, that organisation's ability to work internationally will have been reduced.
    Secondly, don't forget who the main victims of criminal immigrants are: Other immigrants. Not only due to the bad rep they have to endure because of those, but also simply due to more exposure.
    Even though deportation is in theory meant to protect the country's citisens, to whom the state is primarily obligated to, it actually helps other immigrants more.

    Part of my family lives on the other side of the bridge, in Malmö, and are mostly Arab (my family is complicated ^^). All political correctness be damned, they're pretty tired of the gangs that run their neighbourhoods. If one of those gangs wants to assert dominance in a certain sector, they simply seek out the biggest guy they can find there and shoot him. It doesn't even matter to them if he was part of a gang himself or not. So yeah. Deportation of those responsible after time served would make most people quite happy, and also remove some bad influences that would otherwise drag other youth down with them.

    What you are right about is usually being factored in: If the criminal no longer has any real ties to his country of origin, he's much less likely to be sent there. It is forbidden within the EU to extradite/deport anyone if his death is a likely outcome of this.
    .







    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    No one cares what Derc has to say.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Should criminal foreigners be deported?

    Define foreighner?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Should criminal foreigners be deported?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post


    What costs?

    Rising
    housing costs, lower wages, crime, terrorism, lower social cohesion.



    Yes really. Too easy to dump the guilt state wide when it's concentrated in specific areas. Gun crime is concentrated in cities.
    https://everytownresearch.org/gun-violence-cities/

    Guess who runs American big cities? It's the liberals. I have zero interest discussing guns in the US anyway, especially since you already tried to dump the blame on the white working class, in typical liberal fashion.

  14. #14
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Should criminal foreigners be deported?

    lower wages
    Got some data?

    social cohesion.
    I can accept theoretically this might be a problem for smaller homologous European countries, but seems a stretch for the US or Canada.

    terrorism
    Right the UK or Spain never had no terrorism before immigrants (I assume you mean non whites). The US neither - unless you want to ignore say the whole history of lynchings, and right wing militia attacks on the US government.

    housing costs
    Housing costs - how?

    Crime -
    Not in the US and Canada

    Yes really. Too easy to dump the guilt state wide when it's concentrated in specific areas. Gun crime is concentrated in cities
    That is non nonsensical. The state data is the state data and red states use their guns for crimes more often than blue states. Also of course attempts at gun control are neutered by the existence of lax red state gun laws and enforcement. Just drive to the gun show in Virginia and back to NY and NYC gun laws are rendered moot.

    Guess who runs American big cities? It's the liberals. I have zero interest discussing guns in the US anyway, especially since you already tried to dump the blame on the white working class, in typical liberal fashion.
    err when did I do that?
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Should criminal foreigners be deported?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Got some data?
    https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...nt-jobs-214216

    Anything from Borjas really, you can have fun with him.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    I can accept theoretically this might be a problem for smaller homologous European countries, but seems a stretch for the US or Canada.
    No, the US is notoriously a low social cohesion country, since Putnam studies to the very least.
    https://www.puttingourdifferencestow...0Diversity.pdf

    Canada is the same, look up:
    Stolle D., Sorotka S., Johnston r. (2008), When does diver-sity erode trust? Neighbourhood diversity, interpersonal trustand the mediating effect of social interactions. Political Studies, vol. 56, n. 1.

    No matter how Trudeau the liberal retard repeats ''diversity is our strength''. Diversity is a weakness. It's poison for social cohesion.
    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Right the UK or Spain never had no terrorism before immigrants (I assume you mean non whites). The US neither - unless you want to ignore say the whole history of lynchings, and right wing militia attacks on the US government.
    Whataboutism. Having problems with separatist terrorism is not an argument in defense of importing terrorists. That's idiotic.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Housing costs - how?
    You have degree in economics right?
    What exactly do you think happens if you keep increasing the population of a place? They need housing, demand rises, so do prices. Why do you think that high immigration cities like London or San Francisco have housing problems? Because of Republicans?



    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Not in the US and Canada
    Oh ffs, we went through this we Sukiyama and Vanoi before. Once you split the US by racial groups, the crime rate of immigrants is higher than Asians, Whites and Hispanics, only lower than Blacks. The only reason immigrants in the US have a lower crime rate the the overall average is because of the high crime rate of African Americans.

    Now let's see brains shut down again on this.


    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    That is non nonsensical. The state data is the state data and red states use their guns for crimes more often than blue states. Also of course attempts at gun control are neutered by the existence of lax red state gun laws and enforcement. Just drive to the gun show in Virginia and back to NY and NYC gun laws are rendered moot.
    As I said, I have zero interest in this.
    Last edited by Basil II the B.S; July 21, 2019 at 03:43 PM.

  16. #16

    Default Re: Should criminal foreigners be deported?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    That is non nonsensical. The state data is the state data and red states use their guns for crimes more often than blue states. Also of course attempts at gun control are neutered by the existence of lax red state gun laws and enforcement. Just drive to the gun show in Virginia and back to NY and NYC gun laws are rendered moot.
    "Handguns

    Under federal law, anyone who does not have a federal gun dealer license, or other Federal Firearms License (FFL), is generally prohibited from acquiring a handgun directly from a seller or transferor who resides in a different state.4 This means that people generally cannot obtain handguns out of state and then transport them into their state of residence, and cannot otherwise receive a handgun from an out-of-state seller or transferor without the assistance of a licensed dealer in their home state.


    People may acquire handguns from out-of-state sellers or transferors if the sale or transfer of the weapon is conducted through a licensed dealer in the recipient’s state of residence.5 In other words, a person in one state may buy a handgun online from a licensed or unlicensed seller in another state so long as the handgun is shipped to a licensed dealer in the purchaser’s home state who facilitates the sale. Usually, gun dealers will charge a small fee for providing this service, conducting a background check, and fulfilling other requirements."

    Long Guns


    Federal law places somewhat looser restrictions on the sale or transfer of long guns like rifles and shotguns across state lines. Under federal law, individuals can lawfully obtain a long gun from a seller or transferor in another state, provided that:
    •Both parties meet in person to conduct the sale or transfer.
    •The sale or transfer is conducted by, or through, a licensed dealer, pursuant to a background check and other requirements.
    •The sale, delivery, and receipt of the long gun fully comply with state law in both parties’ states of residence."



    https://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-l...sales/#federal

  17. #17
    Diamat's Avatar VELUTI SI DEUS DARETUR
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    Default Re: Should criminal foreigners be deported?

    As a legal immigrant to the United States, I could never understand why certain criminals, some of them illegal immigrants, did not receive deportation orders. If I were to commit a crime as a legal immigrant, I would most likely not be able to renew my permanent residence. I constantly have to stress over maintaining my legal status, because I travel a lot outside of the United States (I get questioned whenever I re-enter the US). Somehow I, as someone who never commits crimes and faithfully pays his taxes to the US government, am more suspect than those who do not hold a residence permit. I know a bunch of legal Hispanic immigrants who think the same way about illegal immigrants. It's frustrating.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Should criminal foreigners be deported?

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    https://www.politico.com/magazine/st...nt-jobs-214216

    Anything from Borjas really, you can have fun with him.
    So the only sources you read are those that backup your world view? I don't disagree with you Basil. I think that those that benefit from immigration, capital owners, should pay for the damage done by immigration. But you're not going to get that kind of legislation by supporting MAGA. Nor is selectively picking which immigrants to ban and which ones not to, going to to be problem-free. If it is even achievable.

    No, the US is notoriously a low social cohesion country, since Putnam studies to the very least.
    https://www.puttingourdifferencestow...0Diversity.pdf

    Canada is the same, look up:
    Stolle D., Sorotka S., Johnston r. (2008), When does diver-sity erode trust? Neighbourhood diversity, interpersonal trustand the mediating effect of social interactions. Political Studies, vol. 56, n. 1.

    No matter how Trudeau the liberal retard repeats ''diversity is our strength''. Diversity is a weakness. It's poison for social cohesion.

    Whataboutism. Having problems with separatist terrorism is not an argument in defense of importing terrorists. That's idiotic.
    Neither of those studies say what you think they say, and different cultures eventually homogenize anyway. What, you think all White British are pure Anglo-Saxons? What's the real difference between Finns and Estonians? Between Romanians and Bulgarians? British, Welsh, Scottish, Irish? All the different Germans? How about brown people? Can you tell them apart? Indians? Don't make me laugh. The only thing nationalism has done these last few years, is justify social conflict.

    You have degree in economics right?
    What exactly do you think happens if you keep increasing the population of a place? They need housing, demand rises, so do prices. Why do you think that high immigration cities like London or San Francisco have housing problems? Because of Republicans?
    Population is the foundation of economic growth. In fact, until the last couple centuries, it was one of the only sources of economic growth.

    Oh ffs, we went through this we Sukiyama and Vanoi before. Once you split the US by racial groups, the crime rate of immigrants is higher than Asians, Whites and Hispanics, only lower than Blacks. The only reason immigrants in the US have a lower crime rate the the overall average is because of the high crime rate of African Americans.

    Now let's see brains shut down again on this.
    Asians, especially immigrants in the last 30 years, are predominately educated and wealthy. That tends to correlate with lower crime rates. A much better comparison would be between poor whites, and low-skilled immigrants. Your crime issues aren't going to be solved by building a wall.

    And we did go through with this before Basil. Right up to the point where you compared two different data points from completely different data sets. Or are you still going to be defending that utter failure in not just statistics, but common sense?


    As I said, I have zero interest in this.
    Yeah I know you have zero interest in things that don't conform to your world view. That's why you tend to ignore them.

  19. #19
    Kritias's Avatar Petite bourgeois
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    Default Re: Should criminal foreigners be deported?

    Immigration has been the earliest human experience and the reason why our homo sapiens ancestors sprang forwards to colonize the world. If you consider that we've (the homo sapiens species) been on this planet for roughly 35o,ooo years and settled down in the Levant and Mesopotamia roughly 1o,ooo years ago, we've spent the majority of our existence as migrant populations moving along with our food source. So: Cut 'em some slack already! Your own nation was made from immigrants from Western Europe, too, if I am not mistaken...

    Having said that, this thread is a perfect example of what a leftist would call 'prejudiced'.

    To begin with, the question whether the foreign criminals should be deported is in silent juxtaposition to native criminals who, even though they do commit crimes, have the right of nativity so there's no question of deporting them. Given in a slogan, foreign criminals should be ousted and the native criminals should stay because... blood and soil? If you wanted to be crack down on crime, then you should have argued about the restoration of penal colonies to ship all kinds of criminals there. But you only focus on migrants which brings me to my next point.

    Both those who voted that foreign criminals should be deported no matter the severity of the crime and those who accept deportation only for the most serious crimes share a common assumption. Namely, that migrants somehow commit crimes in greater frequency than natives and that their crimes are more violent. Unfortunately, studies by the Cato Institute show that this is just prejudice. In fact migrants have been shown since 1911 to be the least probable group to commit crimes as a whole. Just a line of statistics for you, from 17,785 convictions for murder in 2016 only the 85 were migrants, legal and otherwise. That's 0.5 for the mathematically inclined. Read more here.

    Therefore, if the migrants are not the cause for crime, why are we talking whether they should be deported or not? The position of the first group, those who would agree with deportation on any offense is telling. You'd deport someone for an overdue speeding ticket, for example? This is not only ridiculous, it's down right bigoted. And who are those "foreigners" you want to deport so badly? Define them. Are they first generation immigrants, Americans with an immigrant background, illegal immigrants only?

    Some glossary before you get smart with me again.

    prejudice. : a negative attitude towards someone based on race or ethnicity rather than personal experience.

    bigot. : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.
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  20. #20
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Should criminal foreigners be deported?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kritias View Post
    Immigration has been the earliest human experience and the reason why our homo sapiens ancestors sprang forwards to colonize the world. If you consider that we've (the homo sapiens species) been on this planet for roughly 35o,ooo years and settled down in the Levant and Mesopotamia roughly 1o,ooo years ago, we've spent the majority of our existence as migrant populations moving along with our food source. So: Cut 'em some slack already! Your own nation was made from immigrants from Western Europe, too, if I am not mistaken...

    Having said that, this thread is a perfect example of what a leftist would call 'prejudiced'.

    To begin with, the question whether the foreign criminals should be deported is in silent juxtaposition to native criminals who, even though they do commit crimes, have the right of nativity so there's no question of deporting them. Given in a slogan, foreign criminals should be ousted and the native criminals should stay because... blood and soil? If you wanted to be crack down on crime, then you should have argued about the restoration of penal colonies to ship all kinds of criminals there. But you only focus on migrants which brings me to my next point.

    Both those who voted that foreign criminals should be deported no matter the severity of the crime and those who accept deportation only for the most serious crimes share a common assumption. Namely, that migrants somehow commit crimes in greater frequency than natives and that their crimes are more violent. Unfortunately, studies by the Cato Institute show that this is just prejudice. In fact migrants have been shown since 1911 to be the least probable group to commit crimes as a whole. Just a line of statistics for you, from 17,785 convictions for murder in 2016 only the 85 were migrants, legal and otherwise. That's 0.5 for the mathematically inclined. Read more here.

    Therefore, if the migrants are not the cause for crime, why are we talking whether they should be deported or not? The position of the first group, those who would agree with deportation on any offense is telling. You'd deport someone for an overdue speeding ticket, for example? This is not only ridiculous, it's down right bigoted. And who are those "foreigners" you want to deport so badly? Define them. Are they first generation immigrants, Americans with an immigrant background, illegal immigrants only?

    Some glossary before you get smart with me again.

    prejudice. : a negative attitude towards someone based on race or ethnicity rather than personal experience.

    bigot. : a person who is obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (such as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance.
    I did vote for deportation as a potential result of serious crime of course the poll provided is not very granular. But re:

    Both those who voted that foreign criminals should be deported no matter the severity of the crime and those who accept deportation only for the most serious crimes share a common assumption. Namely, that migrants somehow commit crimes in greater frequency than natives and that their crimes are more violent....
    True therefore auto expulsion for any crime certainly and even felonies is a bad thing - it should has I see it be the prerogative of the court. Sure Murder 1 or 2 I fine with that but negligent homicide probably not.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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