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Thread: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

  1. #81

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    The SOMJ used from and F-35 is a substantially more robust striking platform than the F-16 in terms of a first strike. I was not saying Turkey should not buy Russian in fact having bought the S-400 they should by the accompanying AA defense systems. Particularly because Turkey lookes to be lacking a Gen for 4.5 or 5 plane for a while. I would think avoiding SU-57 would something to do given India walked.

    Although in the context of NATO and Japan - how many top line purchases vs more or less legacy gear slowly being retired?
    It is beyond doubt that Turkey lacks a lot of modern systems to fill the gaps. Getting technology, and not just black box gear, is becoming more and more important. So, I don't really worry where Turkey will get the rest from.

    Weapons “Made in Russia”: NATO Summit Tells Member States to Get Rid of Russian Weapons
    There is nothing new in this. It’s a time-worn topic. But whatever is said and promised, the allies continue to use Russian weapons. Some of them even make new purchases. It was assumed that former Warsaw Pact members, such as Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, the Czech Republic and Slovakia, would get rid of them upon entering NATO (1999-2004). It turned out differently.
    There are always ways to get around the rules. Some NATO countries, such as Poland and the Czech Republic, manage to find loopholes. They modernize Russia weapons giving them new names. This will enable them to say they comply with the rules while continuing to use them. Poland believes that buying a license from Russia to produce the Mig-29 makes it a Polish, not Russian, plane. The same applies to the Igla MANPAD renamed Grom-M to be later improved into what became known as the Piorun, with a new seeker and rocket motor. The Grom and Piorun missiles are integrated into the Poprad weapons station. It is exported as a Polish weapon. 23 mm ZU 23-2 GRAU 2А13 and 23-4 Shilka self-propelled anti-aircraft artillery guns have been upgraded with electric drives, fire-control systems (FCS), and detection systems and MANPADS to become Polish 23-2TG and 23-4МР Biała systems. The list can go on.
    The Armenian Issue

  2. #82

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    The S-400 is a self-contained SAM system with all the necessary components to conduct independent operations. You don't need to buy accompanying short-medium range defense systems from Russia if you already have, or are planning to buy your own. The S-400 has no direct ground-based analogous from the West, hence why it makes sense for Turkey to buy these systems. On the other hand, there are plenty of short-medium range SAM systems that can be purchased elsewhere, instead of Russia, to layer airspace denial. The question of communication between S-400s and the rest of Turkish defenses is a question of software and communication, not technical compatibility.

    Would it be more simple to just buy stuff from Russia? Sure, but it may make more sense, politically, to buy equipment from Europe instead. Or just build your own with the help of an international partner. Turkey has a pretty good arms industry, might as well use it.

  3. #83
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    The S-400 is a self-contained SAM system with all the necessary components to conduct independent operations. You don't need to buy accompanying short-medium range defense systems from Russia if you already have, or are planning to buy your own. The S-400 has no direct ground-based analogous from the West, hence why it makes sense for Turkey to buy these systems. On the other hand, there are plenty of short-medium range SAM systems that can be purchased elsewhere, instead of Russia, to layer airspace denial. The question of communication between S-400s and the rest of Turkish defenses is a question of software and communication, not technical compatibility.
    Still 8 of them is a bit limited and expensive to use to swat smaller threats like drones. Well they don't seem to have as far as I can tell and (medium that is) and have no action on that front. Yes but its clear they won't be US. Maybe Europe but that depends on how Europe views Turkey and or seemingly how willing they are for more rather than minimal tech transfer. Rolls-Royce is seemingly not to keen having walked back cooperation on the Turkish jet (and they have one of the best fit replacement engines for the US one Turkey was using for it Helicopter sales).
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

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  4. #84

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Pretty much any threat is made within the context of defending one's own country. The 18 island issue is one that we discussed quite extensively. Both sides regards these gray areas as their own. Kılıçdaroğlu's remarks were a response to Greek defense minister's remarks. Initially, Kılıçdaroğlu was testing Erdoğan's boasting of nationalism. In the Turkish assembly, he asked Erdoğan about the status of the 18 islands that Greece claimed sovereignty over. Agathonisi, which is not covered in any treaty that gives any sovereignty to Greece, is one of them. You say its yours but you can not provide the necessary treaties that names it as Greek. When your side says that they will use force to defend it it's not a threat. Turks claim sovereignty over it as well. When they say that they will get it back by force if Greece is violating Turkish sovereignty over the islands it's a threat. It's a nice one-sided world view you're using there.
    The information regarding the sovereignty of Agathonisi was amply provided, but I distinctly remember you being unable to answer one simple question. Let's say that the island is not Greek, let's say that no document was provided, how is the island turkish? What is this, if it's not Greek it's Turkish? What if it's Italian? What business does Turkey have stepping in. You see, in order to claim something, you must bring some document that it's yours. Turkey never brought any such information. That's what I call a land grab. And what's more, we are talking about INHABITED land. Turkey, by claiming that she would land troops on Agathonisi in fact threatens the lives of the people (CIVILIANS) living there. And we can't have that, can we?

    It's really interesting that Turkey doesn't have any documents proving their ownership over the Prigiponisa (the islands of the Marmara sea). In fact, Professor Syriggos makes the point that Prokonisos, for example is not covered by the Lausagne Treaty as being Turkish. You see, if we were to follow Ankara's logic, we would find grey zones in Marmara, too.

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  5. #85

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    The information regarding the sovereignty of Agathonisi was amply provided, but I distinctly remember you being unable to answer one simple question. Let's say that the island is not Greek, let's say that no document was provided, how is the island turkish? What is this, if it's not Greek it's Turkish? What if it's Italian? What business does Turkey have stepping in. You see, in order to claim something, you must bring some document that it's yours. Turkey never brought any such information. That's what I call a land grab. And what's more, we are talking about INHABITED land. Turkey, by claiming that she would land troops on Agathonisi in fact threatens the lives of the people (CIVILIANS) living there. And we can't have that, can we?

    It's really interesting that Turkey doesn't have any documents proving their ownership over the Prigiponisa (the islands of the Marmara sea). In fact, Professor Syriggos makes the point that Prokonisos, for example is not covered by the Lausagne Treaty as being Turkish. You see, if we were to follow Ankara's logic, we would find grey zones in Marmara, too.
    No treaty that successfully named or referred to the island in question was provided. In fact, you gave different treaty names at different instances when we discussed the same question. Professor Syriggos makes a moot point as it has no logic nor follows what Ankara argues. However, whether each side's claims are right or not is not within the scope of this thread. It's understandable that you'd try to resort to such a straw man position but the point is that when both sides express their desire to use military action or imply it at all they're talking about defending what they see as being rightfully theirs. To pollute the well, of course, you even resorted to claiming that Turkey invented PKK in Syria/Iraq or Greek violence in Cyprus back in 1974 which is quite simply pathetic argumentation. So, if you wanna discuss the details of the islands then open a new thread.
    The Armenian Issue

  6. #86
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Let's bet. You can't find a clause where it gives Agathonisi to Greece. Turkey also has no claim over the island of Cyprus other than the ones laid out in the guarantor agreement you conveniently ignored.
    I already did, and I already quoted it to you. Article 16 in the treaty of Lausanne. Turkey renounced the rights and titles on all territories that weren't outlined by the treaty as theirs. So you claiming there is no treaty explicitly naming Agathonisi automatically means Turkey lost their rights on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Yes, Turkey defended the interests of Turkish Cypriots back in 1974, they can do the same for their own citizens. When Greeks say it's a statement of self-defense, when Turks say it's threat of apocalypse...
    He called it the Turkish army's homeland. And let's not kid ourselves. It's in relation to oil exploration in the Mediterranean. The Turkish claims that far south are about as merited as the Chinese claims in the islands near the Philippines. The answer is not at all.

    Luckily I'm not one of those mostly Greek people who live on Agathonisi. But if I were, I'd obviously be threatened. Imagine your neighbouring country threatening to take over the place you live in.

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  7. #87

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    I already did, and I already quoted it to you. Article 16 in the treaty of Lausanne. Turkey renounced the rights and titles on all territories that weren't outlined by the treaty as theirs. So you claiming there is no treaty explicitly naming Agathonisi automatically means Turkey lost their rights on it.

    He called it the Turkish army's homeland. And let's not kid ourselves. It's in relation to oil exploration in the Mediterranean. The Turkish claims that far south are about as merited as the Chinese claims in the islands near the Philippines. The answer is not at all.

    Luckily I'm not one of those mostly Greek people who live on Agathonisi. But if I were, I'd obviously be threatened. Imagine your neighbouring country threatening to take over the place you live in.
    You are very much welcomed to open a thread on the details on Agathonisi case. In any case, you claim that you provided a clause where the island is given to Greece then talk about a clause that Turkey renounced its rights on the island. One does not necessarily support the other. I don't think that will sit well in any thread though.

    Correction: Erdoğan didn't say Cyprus is Turkish army's homeland. The original sentence says the following: "... the brave Turkish army that doesn't separate Cyprus from its own homeland ..." The real statement stresses importance of the island while Anadolu Agency's translation indicates that Cyprus is the homeland of Turkish army.
    The Armenian Issue

  8. #88

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    No treaty that successfully named or referred to the island in question was provided. In fact, you gave different treaty names at different instances when we discussed the same question. Professor Syriggos makes a moot point as it has no logic nor follows what Ankara argues. However, whether each side's claims are right or not is not within the scope of this thread. It's understandable that you'd try to resort to such a straw man position but the point is that when both sides express their desire to use military action or imply it at all they're talking about defending what they see as being rightfully theirs. To pollute the well, of course, you even resorted to claiming that Turkey invented PKK in Syria/Iraq or Greek violence in Cyprus back in 1974 which is quite simply pathetic argumentation. So, if you wanna discuss the details of the islands then open a new thread.
    Not a moot point at all. Show us the Treaty which gives the Prigiponisi to Turkey.
    Also, show us how Turkey claims Agathonisi. Even if we were to accept that it's not Greek (despite the presence of Greek population, which couldn't have happened if it was turkish), show us HOW IT IS TURKISH. You can't.

    As for Turkey's relations with its neighbors (Greece VERY MUCH included, since Greece IS part of NATO, and Turkey has been compromising NATO for DECADES now, with its persistence on maintaining a VERY tense situation with Greece), it has everything to do with the topic, as said relationships are indicative of the turkish persistence on invading neighboring countries.

    Turkey Has Abandoned the West. Good Riddance.
    https://www.realclearpolitics.com/20...ce_480673.html

    And there is something to be said about the US here, because the US has encouraged this attitude for DECADES, as it never really stood by Greece when Turkey was constantly violating Greek airspace and was resorting to all sorts of provocations. Had Turkey been put in its place (by allowing Greece to actually defend its own airspace by downing turkish aircraft), maybe that country wouldn't believe itself a superpower capable of challenging the US itself. Only recently did they US "remember" the violations:
    http://en.protothema.gr/a-new-blow-t...be-documented/

    But hey, they have a good geographic position.
    Last edited by ioannis76; July 23, 2019 at 04:38 PM.

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  9. #89
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    As much as i have fun reading all the nonsenses Greek nationalists are dreaming of, this thread is not about Greece. Stop hijacking every Turkey thread in the forum.

  10. #90

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I don't see why S-400s can't be used without Russian-made short to mid range support. Turkey doesn't have or intend to buy SAMP-T system anyways. So, by your logic, Patriot system in itself would be pointless to buy for Turkey. S-400s would a much more cheaper pointless purchase...
    You are mistaken here since Turkey does not lack NATO compatible Short Range and Medium Range SAMs which would be easily connected to the Network of NATO and are and also work well with a new or even used Patriot System. They already own Short and Mid-Range SAMs and also are doing their homegrown Project which is still using Parts from NATO Partners - same applies for a System like SAMP-T but not for an S-400 or even Chinese made one since even their basis of standards are different.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    No one really argued that F-16s would be used for decades. Why you'd bank on that is beyond me. You also seem to be abandoning your claim that Turkey lacks F-16 parts. The point is to keep the fleet standing for an other 5 or 10 years maximum.

    I take it your claim that foreign partners in TAI TF-X project was made up as you seem to have changed that point from one of existing circumstances to a hypothetical scenario.

    Well we will see how this will end up since you are to not really know how much Parts are left for the Fleet or how the Project of a Homegrown Fighter will be able to replace that Fleet.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Your analogy is not exactly accurate. Samsung and Apple are rivals. Turkey and Lockheed Martin are not. It's like if Turkey opened up its market to Apple for the first time with a standing order to buy 100 million units and asked Apple to share a portion of the a particular iPhone's design.

    It's certainly not more profitable to pay twice as much to be more dependent on an "ally" that keeps screwing you. The opposite proved to be more profitable since it helped transform the arms production in Turkey to the level of exporting arms.
    That´s exactly what Turkey has wanted otherwise there would be not such a demand on Offer from Turkey for T-LORAMIDS which is still a Open tender since the S-400 does not fullfill the other requirements that the Turkish Air Force still lacks.

    There is no arms production from the opposite in Turkey and it cannot be if you are in a Alliance called NATO.


    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post

    THAAD is a different beast, militarily and monetarily. It's much much more expensive and serves a different purpose. THAAD is a primarily anti-ballistic missile defense system, not an anti-aircraft missile defense system. It's not more capable but differently capable. It's price and lack of desired capability renders it irrelevant.
    https://shape.nato.int/ongoingoperat...ion-in-turkey-

    But that exactly was one of the requirements of the T-LORAMIDS tender and not just being able for bigger Range capable defending your Air Space from some Fighters since Turkey was on a serious Danger in the First Gulf War of Scud Threats - how the S-400 will counter threats like these when they are not able to operate in your Defence Network?

    Of course for something like that is a Patriot System more suitable then THAAD.
    Last edited by Nebaki; July 24, 2019 at 12:59 AM.

  11. #91

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    You are mistaken here since Turkey does not lack NATO compatible Short Range and Medium Range SAMs which would be easily connected to the Network of NATO and are and also work well with a new or even used Patriot System. They already own Short and Mid-Range SAMs and also are doing their homegrown Project which is still using Parts from NATO Partners - same applies for a System like SAMP-T but not for an S-400 or even Chinese made one since even their basis of standards are different.
    Well we will see how this will end up since you are to not really know how much Parts are left for the Fleet or how the Project of a Homegrown Fighter will be able to replace that Fleet.
    That´s exactly what Turkey has wanted otherwise there would be not such a demand on Offer from Turkey for T-LORAMIDS which is still a Open tender since the S-400 does not fullfill the other requirements that the Turkish Air Force still lacks.
    There is no arms production from the opposite in Turkey and it cannot be if you are in a Alliance called NATO.
    https://shape.nato.int/ongoingoperat...ion-in-turkey-
    But that exactly was one of the requirements of the T-LORAMIDS tender and not just being able for bigger Range capable defending your Air Space from some Fighters since Turkey was on a serious Danger in the First Gulf War of Scud Threats - how the S-400 will counter threats like these when they are not able to operate in your Defence Network?
    Of course for something like that is a Patriot System more suitable then THAAD.
    Can you name the short and medium range SAM systems that Turkey operate? How will they not be able to work with S-400s? You seem to be claiming that there is no arms production in Turkey. That's blatantly false. I don't know why you'd imply that. You also seem to be banking on the idea that S-400s will not be able to be used given that they don't have a magical connection to other systems. I don't see that as anything other than a baseless speculation.
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  12. #92
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Can you name the short and medium range SAM systems that Turkey operate? How will they not be able to work with S-400s? You seem to be claiming that there is no arms production in Turkey. That's blatantly false. I don't know why you'd imply that. You also seem to be banking on the idea that S-400s will not be able to be used given that they don't have a magical connection to other systems. I don't see that as anything other than a baseless speculation.
    I have done a fair amount of digging but as far as I can tell the only AA/Anti-Missle system Turkey has now is the S-400 in anything beyond short point defense type range. That being a collection of vehicles mounting stinger class missiles and guns. The problem I see with integrating non Russian weapons is the weather or not a Seller allows Turkey to alter the system. Your view earlier was it was just software but a lot deals (like the F-35) do not allow you to mess with the systems software for obvious reasons. Turkey does have a good arms industry and it wants to be bigger and obviously export, thus it desire for tech transfer in deals. Thus perhaps potential skittishness in western sellers.
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  13. #93

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    I have done a fair amount of digging but as far as I can tell the only AA/Anti-Missle system Turkey has now is the S-400 in anything beyond short point defense type range. That being a collection of vehicles mounting stinger class missiles and guns. The problem I see with integrating non Russian weapons is the weather or not a Seller allows Turkey to alter the system. Your view earlier was it was just software but a lot deals (like the F-35) do not allow you to mess with the systems software for obvious reasons. Turkey does have a good arms industry and it wants to be bigger and obviously export, thus it desire for tech transfer in deals. Thus perhaps potential skittishness in western sellers.
    I wouldn't describe it as "just software" and if I have done that I would be quite wrong. However, I don't see a reason why these systems would need to be closely integrated. If need be, there could be software translators between each systems in the case where a piece of information needs to be passed onto the next system. To that, I think the Turkish defense industry is quite capable of it since they've been doing that to install Turkish made systems into any foreign bought systems. I believe it would be true even for F-35s. Turks would not be using any weaponry as it was out of the box.
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  14. #94
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I wouldn't describe it as "just software" and if I have done that I would be quite wrong. However, I don't see a reason why these systems would need to be closely integrated. If need be, there could be software translators between each systems in the case where a piece of information needs to be passed onto the next system. To that, I think the Turkish defense industry is quite capable of it since they've been doing that to install Turkish made systems into any foreign bought systems. I believe it would be true even for F-35s. Turks would not be using any weaponry as it was out of the box.
    Mucking about might be OK with a proper agreement on most systems. But on the F-35 it is an iron clad no. Only Israel has the right to mess with the F-35 Software/firmware etc. Turkey had the same deal as everyone else only Lockheed distributes updates or changes software subject to Pentagon approval. Thus Turkey can build the SOM that complies with the specs and hooks for software given but they could not alter the F-35 software to say take a no compliant certified missile or jam in a domestic radar. But given the cost of the F-35 it may be an extreme example of the US guarding its core tech elements.ose

    I would assume integration is valuable for a of of reasons. Avoiding wasting multiple shots form different units on the same target. making the data from either disparate or better sensors available to all reducing blind spots or providing additional reaction time. If I'm not mistaken a good example would be French tanks in world war two they had few radios so while better than the German tanks they faced they could not coordinated very well compared to the Germans. In any case the fact is the Russian do operate the S-400 in a integrated system that would seem important and second they do have medium rage back for the S-400 so I would think Turkey does need one well integrated or not.
    Last edited by conon394; July 24, 2019 at 10:08 AM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

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  15. #95

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Mucking about might be OK with a proper agreement on most systems. But on the F-35 it is an iron clad no. Only Israel has the right to mess with the F-35 Software/firmware etc. Turkey had the same deal as everyone else only Lockheed distributes updates or changes software subject to Pentagon approval. Thus Turkey can build the SOM that complies with the specs and hooks for software given but they could not alter the F-35 software to say take a no compliant certified missile or jam in a domestic radar. But given the cost of the F-35 it may be an extreme example of the US guarding its core tech elements.ose

    I would assume integration is valuable for a of of reasons. Avoiding wasting multiple shots form different units on the same target. making the data from either disparate or better sensors available to all reducing blind spots or providing additional reaction time. If I'm not mistaken a good example would be French tanks in world war two they had few radios so while better than the German tanks they faced they could not coordinated very well compared to the Germans. In any case the fact is the Russian do operate the S-400 in a integrated system that would seem important and second they do have medium rage back for the S-400 so I would think Turkey does need one well integrated or not.
    I was not talking about changing F-35s software.
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  16. #96
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I was not talking about changing F-35s software.
    True, but I'm not sure you can crack open other systems willy nilly either. That seemed to be the sticking point on the Patriot more than maybe the cost. The fact that trump seems to leaning to give his buds the House of Saud that (transfer an-of tech and ability to fiddle with us tech) as part of his arms deal with them (when they specifically say that want to become and exporter of arms) is one only reasons the Republicans have roused themselves to reject his plan with democrats.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  17. #97

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    True, but I'm not sure you can crack open other systems willy nilly either. That seemed to be the sticking point on the Patriot more than maybe the cost. The fact that trump seems to leaning to give his buds the House of Saud that (transfer an-of tech and ability to fiddle with us tech) as part of his arms deal with them (when they specifically say that want to become and exporter of arms) is one only reasons the Republicans have roused themselves to reject his plan with democrats.
    I wasn't talking about cracking any system whatsoever.
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  18. #98

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    All F-35s have different software tailored to each country's specific needs. This is called Mission Data Files, and Turkey would've undoubtedly received their own unique version of this software. Going forward, every country will be able to modify their own MDFs to continue tailoring the software to their needs. I'm not sure what Conon is referring to, but as far as I know, Israel doesn't have access to the source code of the F35. They are however going to be receiving F-35Is, which is a modified F-35 with additional hardware modifications probably tailored for Israel's arms industry. Israel has been known to modify fighters in the past, quite heavily, and they do have their own electronic warfare industry.

  19. #99
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    All F-35s have different software tailored to each country's specific needs. This is called Mission Data Files, and Turkey would've undoubtedly received their own unique version of this software. Going forward, every country will be able to modify their own MDFs to continue tailoring the software to their needs. I'm not sure what Conon is referring to, but as far as I know, Israel doesn't have access to the source code of the F35. They are however going to be receiving F-35Is, which is a modified F-35 with additional hardware modifications probably tailored for Israel's arms industry. Israel has been known to modify fighters in the past, quite heavily, and they do have their own electronic warfare industry.
    Quickest link I could find

    https://www.wired.com/2016/05/israel...-35-least-now/
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  20. #100

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    NATO stands for jack these days. NATO membership of Turkey did not stop USA from sponsoring coups in Turkey for decades.
    Really, like who? If you are saying the current dictator of Turkey, whom most people who are from Turkey think had the fake coup attempt staged himself so he could siege power, was sponsored by the US, you are mistaken.

    Not that I wouldn't be to surprised if the CIA had sponsored some coups in the past, the US has done some really things, but this last so called coup attempt certainly wasn't one of them.

    People should kindly get off their high horses. USA have been harboring the guy who had to flee Turkey because he was caught on tape saying that his followers should remain secret till they obtain enough government positions. They backed the very same people that created the current oppressive government.
    People should stop blaming the US for everything and have people take responsibility for their own actions. The current oppressive government is something the Turks created all on their own. Just as the Turks committed genocide in Armenia all on its own, and invaded and illegally occupied Cyprus all on its own. True, the US has protested really that hard in the past against Turkey's actions like in Cyprus that it opposed, because in the Cold War it was felt more important to keep Turkey an ally, militarily it had value. But simply because the US didn't enforce principles out of expediency of keeping Turkey an useful military ally doesn't make the US responsible for Turkey's actions and atrocities.

    This not to say that the US hasn't made a complete mess of things in the Middle East, and often made things worse, but dictators were getter ng in charge all on their own without US help, not everything is the US fault, and blaming the US won't address the issues.


    NATO membership meant nothing when for decades USA moved directly and exclusively against the interests of Turkey. Expect no sympathy with such a one-sided ignorant position on the USA-Turkey relations.
    And NATO membership meant to Turkey either when Turkey directly moved against the interest of the NATO and the US, for example by invading Cyprus. Expect no sympathy for those who support such atrocities by Turkey,. It was the Europeans who found Turkey guilty of Human Rights violations in Cyprus, not the US. The fact is that Turkey's involvement in NATO was a marriage of convience for both sides, both have a vested interested in opposing the Soviet Union. Well, the Soviet Union is no more, and the interest of the he US and Turkey are no longer the same. Turkey should feel free to pursue weapons and policies that best suits Turkey, and the US shouldn't have to restricts policies for fear of offending Turkey, and yes, it has been doing just that. US support of the Kurds in Syria has been more strained that it would be, US should just recognize the Kurds as a separate nation, instead of providing under the table support. One of the reasons the US hasn't is that Turkey opposes such a move. But the US has no vested interest in making the borders of old Syria sancroset, and really, the Kurds deserve their own country.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; July 24, 2019 at 08:34 PM.

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