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Thread: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

  1. #61

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    To translate to others ioannis76 is championing for death of people out of a nationalistic pissing contest... Though his remarks on Turkish jet pilots being inexperienced is quite baseless. Much of the pilots that were purged by AKP to help Fetullah followers take over their posts came back to take their positions back after the failed coup attempt.
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  2. #62
    Beorn's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    You don't seem to have read the post. My point is to push turkish pilots (who are also inexperienced, and from now on they will be using problematic equipment) to the limits of their aircraft. Greek pilots are much more experienced, and will be flying much better maintained equipment. As for the information regarding the HAF practically falling apart, I would like to see your sources.
    Judging from the votes that Varoufakis got in this forum's poll (it was a bit of an eye opener), I see that Turkey has quite a few friends here.
    We haven't bought spare parts for airplanes in almost a decade, at this point we are cannibalizing a large part of our airplanes to keep the rest flying, and we lack in technician and engineer numbers too. How do I know? Until last week I used to be doing my mandatory military service in one of the island air-bases from where these fighters take off daily to intercept turkish F-16s over the Aegean. Is this a credible source, or you need a pentapostagma.gr post to believe it?
    Last edited by Beorn; July 20, 2019 at 10:03 AM.

  3. #63

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    We haven't bought spare parts for airplanes in almost a decade, at this point we are cannibalizing a large part of our airplanes to keep the rest flying, and we lack in technician and engineer numbers too. How do I know? Until last week I used to be doing my mandatory military service in one of the island air-bases from where these fighters take off daily to intercept turkish F-16s over the Aegean. Is this a credible source, or you need a pentapostagma.gr post to believe it?
    First of all, didn't they tell you not to discuss military issues publicly?
    Secondly, a mere conscript is not privy to important military secrets, and as we can see, for good reason.
    So no, posts that intentionally attempt to harm our own country is not the best source of information.
    Nor is pentapostagma, mind you. I'll take proelasi, or militaire.

    To translate to others ioannis76 is championing for death of people out of a nationalistic pissing contest...
    To translate for others, the President of the Turkish Republic has repeatedly dared threaten Greece with war. When someone threatens to kill me and my loved ones (basically, this is what war is), apparently I am all for stopping them. Maybe the turkish people should have elected another president, but in Turkey there seems to be a contest about whose politicians the ancestors have killed the most Greeks, so any option would be pretty much the same.
    As for "these people", they are armed invaders, coming into our air space. Any serious country would have just shot them out of the sky with anti aircraft missiles. They would probably not even bother to attempt to intercept them with their own aircraft.
    Last edited by chriscase; July 22, 2019 at 07:20 PM. Reason: restoring after consultation

    The Truth is Hate for those who hate the Truth.

  4. #64

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    To translate for others, the President of the Turkish Republic has repeatedly dared threaten Greece with war. When someone threatens to kill me and my loved ones (basically, this is what war is), apparently I am all for stopping them. Maybe the turkish people should have elected another president, but in Turkey there seems to be a contest about whose politicians the ancestors have killed the most Greeks, so any option would be pretty much the same.
    As for "these people", they are armed invaders, coming into our air space. Any serious country would have just shot them out of the sky with anti aircraft missiles. They would probably not even bother to attempt to intercept them with their own aircraft.
    Sigh... Both sides threaten each other with war for decades. Do not try to mix a desire to defend yourself with that concept.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; July 22, 2019 at 11:09 AM. Reason: Disruptive.
    The Armenian Issue

  5. #65

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Sigh... Both sides threaten each other with war for decades. Do not try to mix a desire to defend yourself with that concept.
    Really? Please, do show me some of the most recent Greek war threats.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; July 22, 2019 at 11:09 AM. Reason: Continuity.

    The Truth is Hate for those who hate the Truth.

  6. #66

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Really? Please, do show me some of the most recent Greek war threats.
    Tsipras' remarks from last months were what we've seen for years from both sides. Each side claims that they will do whatever necessary, politically or militarily, to defend their territories. No one ever makes a statement that they will attack if they don't relinquish their rights. The statements are always about using force if necessary to keep what's rightfully theirs.

    Though we had Greek commando's parading on Greek streets chanting about "Constantinople"...
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  7. #67

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Tsipras' remarks from last months were what we've seen for years from both sides. Each side claims that they will do whatever necessary, politically or militarily, to defend their territories. No one ever makes a statement that they will attack if they don't relinquish their rights. The statements are always about using force if necessary to keep what's rightfully theirs.

    Though we had Greek commando's parading on Greek streets chanting about "Constantinople"...
    I seem to be lost in translation. Would you care to show me those remarks?

    As for the chants, the troops aren't the ones making the policy. If you want to go there, instead of remarks, the turkish military has invaded Cyprus, Syria and Iraq (an I forgetting anyone?). Which one is worse, singing some war songs, or invading and actually killing people. Oh, but I forget, they are all "terrorists".

    The Truth is Hate for those who hate the Truth.

  8. #68

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    I seem to be lost in translation. Would you care to show me those remarks?

    As for the chants, the troops aren't the ones making the policy. If you want to go there, instead of remarks, the turkish military has invaded Cyprus, Syria and Iraq (an I forgetting anyone?). Which one is worse, singing some war songs, or invading and actually killing people. Oh, but I forget, they are all "terrorists".
    Sigh... Sure, commandos are not the ones making policy, yet, they say a lot about the Greek military culture. Lovely how you try to turn it into a pissing contest. You need to get a few things right though. Within the last century, we only had Greece try to invade Turkey. By Makarios' own words, Greece invaded Cyprus in 1974 before Turkey did.

    Words from Prime Minister, Commander of Chief and the Defence Minister (from different times in the last few years):
    “Turkey should not even think to drill on Greek continental shelf,” warns Tsipras
    ‘We’ll crush them!’ Greece threatens NATO ally Turkey over Aegean islets
    MoD Kammenos to Turkey: Greeks will crush them, if they have the guts…
    The Armenian Issue

  9. #69

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post

    S-400s are much better than the Patriot system. That's pretty much an established fact. The fact that Turkey uses NATO standards doesn't really change that.
    The Fact that an S-400 without Systems like Tunguksa/Pantsir for Shortrange and Mid-Range like TOR-M Systems wouldn´t be effective like getting a Patriot/SAMP-T System for your Air Defence in case of Turkey. Look even at Greece and their S-300 - they cannot even use it and same will happen to Turkey.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post

    F-16s getting old is one thing, lacking spare parts is an other. Neither you nor I have inventory on what parts Turkey possess but even foreign media picked up on the stories of Turkey hoarding F-16 parts for some time now. I know that to be a fact from my personal contacts.
    Even if Turkey has Spare Parts at Stock how long they can hold it on Stock? 10 Years? what will happen then? Stealing some F-16´s for using them for your own Fleet?


    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You have sources on foreign participants on TAI TF-X project abandoning the project? TAI TF-X doesn't need to replace F-35s. In all likelihood, Turkey will not have to combat F-35s in the next decade or so. Turkey simply needs a capable fighter.
    The Point is not only getting F-35s and S-400 SAMs - these are just some excuses between two strategic partners - but the one also can harm you not just kicking you out of a Fighter programm.


    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post

    The Chinese system was selected initially as it was the cheapest and allowed full technology transfer. It was not cancelled for the pleasure of Erdoğan but it was cancelled because the company that was selling the system was on the black list.

    Patriot systems does cost a lot more, twice as more, and Turkey did try to buy them before.

    THAAD system is an anti-ballistic missile defense system. It's irrelevant in this discussion.
    Of course Turkey tryed to get them earlier - they wanted also a Technology Transfer which is like Samsung want´s to get from Apple the new Technology that will be implemented in their new iPhone - USA just refused that.

    The Point here is simple - pay as twice and also get the Fighters - that will be in any case more profitable for Turkey then any other path.

    THAAD is more capable then Patriot and can also be used as Air Defence - however for just Air Defence you also have your Fleet of F-16s so how in the Hell the THAAD System is irrelevant? Since i know some F16s and Boeing 737 AEW&C Aircrafts are doing that for the Turkish Air Space since the lack of a High-Altitude SAM.

  10. #70
    chriscase's Avatar Chairman Miao
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Please bear in mind that disclosure of sensitive, confidential, or secret information is potentially damaging to the site and will not be tolerated.

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  11. #71
    Daruwind's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    1) Without siding with one side or another, just saw lower in our czech news..

    https://www.almasdarnews.com/article...eeded-erdogan/

    My personal feeling is that lately Erdogan is threating all the sides around him. Might be just rhetoric..you know this common building of idea that all arounds are enemies. Except...lately for me it looks like he has no friendly states around. Of course except Russia but then again Russia is just using him to disrupt USA, middle east and everything possible...

    Now I´m not saying that some strong comments from Greece are not possible but lately all I hear is about Erdogan.

    2)
    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Yet I know of no country other than Sweden that uses the Gripen.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_JAS_39_Gripen

    Actually a lot countries are flying Grippens. For example my Czech Republic. :-)

    3) There is a lot ideas flying in this thread. I would just stress as some already tried to point out. No military/weapon system is self perfect. It is always about ecosystem, enviroment, cooperation with other systems....simply the chain is as strong as is the weakest point.

    S-400s is good system but you need to build whole AA around it. Short, medium range, radars....It is not about one system. Look at Syria, they are deplyoed by Russia yet Izrael is still able to hit whatever. Maybe Russians are letting them...maybe.

    Then F-35 is different beast. Its future goal is being sensor centre for wide variety of tools...drones, F-15x, swarm drones...getting intel etc for others. However the point I would like to stress is, USA are having orders in hundreds, thousands. All customers slowly paying development cost and as well doing bug testing and providing experience for updates. Even if T-14 or Su-57 are great machines out of the production line, lot stuff is being bug fixed and improved only via active duty and service. Something that USA is getting constantly for their M1 and F-35. A few dozens testing vehicles for T-14 or dozen prototypes for Su-57 especially without new engines (still)....that won´t do the trick. Sorry.

    Large production for active dury.. that kind of experience that will ease any future production for possible 6th gen plane. I´m not saying it is not possible otherwise, only that the chance of successful is rising up with experience.
    Last edited by Daruwind; July 21, 2019 at 08:45 PM.
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  12. #72

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    The Fact that an S-400 without Systems like Tunguksa/Pantsir for Shortrange and Mid-Range like TOR-M Systems wouldn´t be effective like getting a Patriot/SAMP-T System for your Air Defence in case of Turkey. Look even at Greece and their S-300 - they cannot even use it and same will happen to Turkey.
    Even if Turkey has Spare Parts at Stock how long they can hold it on Stock? 10 Years? what will happen then? Stealing some F-16´s for using them for your own Fleet?
    The Point is not only getting F-35s and S-400 SAMs - these are just some excuses between two strategic partners - but the one also can harm you not just kicking you out of a Fighter programm.
    Of course Turkey tryed to get them earlier - they wanted also a Technology Transfer which is like Samsung want´s to get from Apple the new Technology that will be implemented in their new iPhone - USA just refused that.
    The Point here is simple - pay as twice and also get the Fighters - that will be in any case more profitable for Turkey then any other path.
    THAAD is more capable then Patriot and can also be used as Air Defence - however for just Air Defence you also have your Fleet of F-16s so how in the Hell the THAAD System is irrelevant? Since i know some F16s and Boeing 737 AEW&C Aircrafts are doing that for the Turkish Air Space since the lack of a High-Altitude SAM.
    I don't see why S-400s can't be used without Russian-made short to mid range support. Turkey doesn't have or intend to buy SAMP-T system anyways. So, by your logic, Patriot system in itself would be pointless to buy for Turkey. S-400s would a much more cheaper pointless purchase...

    No one really argued that F-16s would be used for decades. Why you'd bank on that is beyond me. You also seem to be abandoning your claim that Turkey lacks F-16 parts. The point is to keep the fleet standing for an other 5 or 10 years maximum.

    I take it your claim that foreign partners in TAI TF-X project was made up as you seem to have changed that point from one of existing circumstances to a hypothetical scenario.

    Your analogy is not exactly accurate. Samsung and Apple are rivals. Turkey and Lockheed Martin are not. It's like if Turkey opened up its market to Apple for the first time with a standing order to buy 100 million units and asked Apple to share a portion of the a particular iPhone's design.

    It's certainly not more profitable to pay twice as much to be more dependent on an "ally" that keeps screwing you. The opposite proved to be more profitable since it helped transform the arms production in Turkey to the level of exporting arms.

    THAAD is a different beast, militarily and monetarily. It's much much more expensive and serves a different purpose. THAAD is a primarily anti-ballistic missile defense system, not an anti-aircraft missile defense system. It's not more capable but differently capable. It's price and lack of desired capability renders it irrelevant.
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  13. #73
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    THAAD is a different beast, militarily and monetarily. It's much much more expensive and serves a different purpose. THAAD is a primarily anti-ballistic missile defense system, not an anti-aircraft missile defense system. It's not more capable but differently capable. It's price and lack of desired capability renders it irrelevant.
    Well yes but...

    https://www.defensenews.com/digital-...t-really-mean/

    The US is moving quickly to integrate the THAAD and Patriot systems. Seemly this means the latest Patriots can use the superior/longer range THAAD radar to get improve intercept times and ranges. So it going forward they are likely to be a set for optimal coverage. What US still really should adding is the NASAMS to its mix to provide an inexpensive anti air layer to the THAADS, Patriot combo

    Turkey and Lockheed Martin are not
    Perhaps not but if Turkey is looking for tech transfer to boost its F-16 replacement fighter than it does aim to become one. Turkey will certainly look to exports while LM will probably prefer to be the one upgrading legacy F-16 uses to the V version. Seeing as it can be retrofired along with no doubt SELP work.

    I don't see why S-400s can't be used without Russian-made short to mid range support. Turkey doesn't have or intend to buy SAMP-T system anyways. So, by your logic, Patriot system in itself would be pointless to buy for Turkey. S-400s would a much more cheaper pointless purchase...
    Because first without them (mid range support) you are facing being overwhelmed and that's not how the system should work. Layers is how the Russian use it in their set up. Turkey almost assuredly should buy more Russian now since a few S-400 batteries backed up just self propelled stinger vehicles and guns is sub optimal.

    It notable that Turkey might have failed to notice it was loosing leverage. Yhe order of 100 F-35s was a big one and it mattered to the US in terms keeping unit costs down (again weather or not it was wise choice for Turkey...) or at least projected costs to show Congress. First Japan stepped up to a big order, and second the US seems to have accepted a smaller f-35 fleet and moved to upgrade if F-15s (f-15X) and SELP the C/D F-16s (and one wonders if they really are shooting for 2050 how long till they order F-16V refits. It was easier for the US to walk away. The scale of the envisioned Turkish air force still means their planners were thinking air superiority first backed up by some S-400s. Thus you could be happy with only short range AA at the front if you will. But with mid range AA would be useful. With only F-16 for the foreseeable future, Turkey looks solid compared to Iran (who knows how many of their planes are really air worthy and if gulf tit for tat goes on that stand to loose some) but in at least air frame quality and numbers it is lagging vs the House of Saud and its buddies (in terms of regional rivals - I'm ignoring Israel I see nothing that would lead to blows there). India proves you can play mix and match but it has its costs and think Turkey is stuck on that road.
    Last edited by conon394; July 22, 2019 at 08:39 AM.
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  14. #74

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Well yes but...

    https://www.defensenews.com/digital-...t-really-mean/

    The US is moving quickly to integrate the THAAD and Patriot systems. Seemly this means the latest Patriots can use the superior/longer range THAAD radar to get improve intercept times and ranges. So it going forward they are likely to be a set for optimal coverage. What US still really should adding is the NASAMS to its mix to provide an inexpensive anti air layer to the THAADS, Patriot combo

    Perhaps not but if Turkey is looking for tech transfer to boost its F-16 replacement fighter than it does aim to become one. Turkey will certainly look to exports while LM will probably prefer to be the one upgrading legacy F-16 uses to the V version. Seeing as it can be retrofired along with no doubt SELP work.

    Because first without them (mid range support) you are facing being overwhelmed and that's not how the system should work it how the Russian use it in their set up. Turkey almost assuredly should buy more Russian now since a few S-400 batteries backed up just self propelled stinger vehicles and guns is sub optimal.
    THAAD being able to talk with Patriot simply makes two expensive systems less expensive, but still expensive overall. Kudos to them for improving their gear but they are very expensive systems for a capability that Turkey is not seeking.

    If Turkey was getting technology from Lockheed Martin then it wouldn't necessarily make them rivals. For starters, the technology transfer is dependent on a particular version. When Russians give their technology over S-400s they're not giving out new features that will come with S-500s that they're developing. Same goes for the Patriots. Lockheed Martin would be giving a basic version of the current Patriot systems to Turkey. Turkish engineers then would analyze and coat the system with their own hardware and software. That's what they have been doing with F-16s or other hardware that they've been getting with better involvement. So, it doesn't exactly produce a rivalry.

    We're not talking about having no short to mid support. We're talking about whether Turkey needs exclusively Russian hardware for short to mid support. I see no reason why there would be such an exclusivity. When we were talking about buying the Patriot systems it was never an issue where Turkey was not considering buying short to mid Lockheed Martin hardware.
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  15. #75

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Words from Prime Minister, Commander of Chief and the Defence Minister (from different times in the last few years):
    “Turkey should not even think to drill on Greek continental shelf,” warns Tsipras
    ‘We’ll crush them!’ Greece threatens NATO ally Turkey over Aegean islets
    MoD Kammenos to Turkey: Greeks will crush them, if they have the guts…
    Sigh... Today I learnt that when you pledge (as much as Greek politicians and that fool of a "commander in chief" can use that verb) to defend your country against an aggressive enemy, you are "threatening".
    It's really funny, that Turkey gets offended when the objects of its aggression states that they will fight back IN DEFENSE.
    But Turkey does not speak of defense, Turkey "invents" terrorists, and then INVADES. Like I said, Cyprus, Iraq, Syria, and to add, Greek air space, all areas where the turkish military has absolutely no business being, yet, there it is.

    For your information, THIS is what a threat looks like:

    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...ece-Aegean-Sea

    Turkish politician promises to INVADE GREECE if victorious in the election
    TURKEY’S leader of the Republican People’s Party (CHP) has threatened to invade “18 Greek islands in the Aegean Sea” if he comes to power that could trigger World War 3 as president Recep Tayyip Erdoğan continued his aggressive rhetoric after imposing his forces in Syria, it has emerged.
    You said so yourself about Agathonisi, for example. It's an island with a Greek population, yet the turkish state has its eye on it. Of course we are obliged to fight when someone else threatens to invade areas where Greek citizens live and murder them.
    Last edited by ioannis76; July 22, 2019 at 08:57 AM.

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  16. #76
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    THAAD being able to talk with Patriot simply makes two expensive systems less expensive, but still expensive overall. Kudos to them for improving their gear but they are very expensive systems for a capability that Turkey is not seeking.

    If Turkey was getting technology from Lockheed Martin then it wouldn't necessarily make them rivals. For starters, the technology transfer is dependent on a particular version. When Russians give their technology over S-400s they're not giving out new features that will come with S-500s that they're developing. Same goes for the Patriots. Lockheed Martin would be giving a basic version of the current Patriot systems to Turkey. Turkish engineers then would analyze and coat the system with their own hardware and software. That's what they have been doing with F-16s or other hardware that they've been getting with better involvement. So, it doesn't exactly produce a rivalry.

    We're not talking about having no short to mid support. We're talking about whether Turkey needs exclusively Russian hardware for short to mid support. I see no reason why there would be such an exclusivity. When we were talking about buying the Patriot systems it was never an issue where Turkey was not considering buying short to mid Lockheed Martin hardware.
    I dunno on rivalry. The new Turkish plane is being designed as a F-16 replacement and that would be a potential competitor to Lockheed's market for F-16 sales and upgrades. The THAADs Patriot PAC-3 and variants might have been too expensive (especially with little tech transfer) and the Older Patriots alone would not be the same as the S-400. But 100 f-45s was expensive overkill as well. I guess sure Turkey could by anything for AA defense below the S-400, but having bought the S-400 why loos out on the rest of Russian integrated air defense? It seems the US army only belatedly realized the usefulness of integration. I proved to be doable in a 1-2 year time frame, I doubt Russian to Western integration would be so swift.

    I guess it still comes down how Turkey and its leaders feel about offensive actions beyond just those in north Iraq or Syria (for internal security reasons). The F-35 said we want to do offense. The S-400 said we want better than the Patriot the US was offering for security. Loosing the F35 would seem to say defense won out meaning Turkey should I think add more of the Russian systems
    Last edited by conon394; July 22, 2019 at 12:23 PM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

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  17. #77

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Sigh... Today I learnt that when you pledge (as much as Greek politicians and that fool of a "commander in chief" can use that verb) to defend your country against an aggressive enemy, you are "threatening".
    It's really funny, that Turkey gets offended when the objects of its aggression states that they will fight back IN DEFENSE.
    But Turkey does not speak of defense, Turkey "invents" terrorists, and then INVADES. Like I said, Cyprus, Iraq, Syria, and to add, Greek air space, all areas where the turkish military has absolutely no business being, yet, there it is.
    For your information, THIS is what a threat looks like:
    https://www.express.co.uk/news/world...ece-Aegean-Sea
    You said so yourself about Agathonisi, for example. It's an island with a Greek population, yet the turkish state has its eye on it. Of course we are obliged to fight when someone else threatens to invade areas where Greek citizens live and murder them.
    Pretty much any threat is made within the context of defending one's own country. The 18 island issue is one that we discussed quite extensively. Both sides regards these gray areas as their own. Kılıçdaroğlu's remarks were a response to Greek defense minister's remarks. Initially, Kılıçdaroğlu was testing Erdoğan's boasting of nationalism. In the Turkish assembly, he asked Erdoğan about the status of the 18 islands that Greece claimed sovereignty over. Agathonisi, which is not covered in any treaty that gives any sovereignty to Greece, is one of them. You say its yours but you can not provide the necessary treaties that names it as Greek. When your side says that they will use force to defend it it's not a threat. Turks claim sovereignty over it as well. When they say that they will get it back by force if Greece is violating Turkish sovereignty over the islands it's a threat. It's a nice one-sided world view you're using there.

    However, the most pathetic part of it all is that you're basically claiming that PKK in Iraq/Syria and Greek violence in Cyprus from 1974 were invented by Turkey. There isn't much one can argue against such a delusional world view.


    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    I dunno on rivalry. The new Turkish plane is being designed as a F-16 replacement and that would be a potential competitor to Lockheed's market for F-16 sales and upgrades. The THAADs Patriot PAC-3 and variants might have been too expensive (especially with little tech transfer) and the Older Patriots alone would not be the same as the S-400. But 100 f-45s was expensive overkill as well. I guess sure Turkey could by anything for AA defense below the S-400, but having bought the S-400 why loos out on the rest of Russian integrated air defense? It seems the US army only belatedly realized the usefulness of integration. I proved to be doable in a 1-2 year time frame, I doubt Russian to Western integration would be so swift.

    I guess it still comes down how Turkey and its leaders feel about offensive actions beyond just those in north Iraq or Syria (for internal security reasons). The F-35 said we want to do offense. The S-400 said we want better than the Patriot the US was offering for security. Loosing the F35 would seem to say defense won out mean Turkey should I think add more of the Russian system.
    Your argument that bases itself on Turkey's domestic jet fighter project seems to miss the remark. We're talking about rivalry within the context of Lockheed Martin's cooperation with Turkey on F-35s... Whether Turkey will buy more Russian systems is dependent on price and capability. If Russian systems are cost effective, why not get them? It's not like Turkey is the first ally to use Russian equipment... F-35s don't really say that we want to do offense. As I said, they're glorified missile platforms. They say we want to do offense when its OK with USA as it further ties Turkey's dependency to them. As I said before, the SOM (high precision mid range missile) project is the one that says Turkey can do offense.
    The Armenian Issue

  18. #78
    Cookiegod's Avatar CIVUS DIVUS EX CLIBANO
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Pretty much any threat is made within the context of defending one's own country. The 18 island issue is one that we discussed quite extensively. Both sides regards these gray areas as their own. Kılıçdaroğlu's remarks were a response to Greek defense minister's remarks. Initially, Kılıçdaroğlu was testing Erdoğan's boasting of nationalism. In the Turkish assembly, he asked Erdoğan about the status of the 18 islands that Greece claimed sovereignty over. Agathonisi, which is not covered in any treaty that gives any sovereignty to Greece, is one of them. You say its yours but you can not provide the necessary treaties that names it as Greek.
    Wanna bet?
    Quote Originally Posted by Treaty of Lausanne
    ARTICLE I6.

    Turkey hereby renounces all rights and title whatsoever over or respecting the territories situated outside the frontiers laid down in the present Treaty and the islands other than those over which her sovereignty is recognised by the said Treaty, the future of these territories and islands being settled or to be settled by the parties concerned.
    Greece is the only "party concerned" left in the region, the other two being Great Britain and Italy. Turkey does not have a valid claim on any of those islands, nor on Cyprus:
    Quote Originally Posted by Treaaty of Lausanne
    ARTICLE 20.

    Turkey hereby recognises the annexation of Cyprus proclaimed by the British Government on the sth November, 1914.
    And yet...
    Quote Originally Posted by Al Anadolu
    "The entire world is watching our determination. No one should doubt that the heroic Turkish army, which sees [Northern] Cyprus as its homeland, will not hesitate to take the same step it took 45 years ago if needed for the lives and security of the Turkish Cypriots," said Erdogan.

    https://www.aa.com.tr/en/turkey/if-n...rs-ago/1537050
    That's a nice add by Anadolu. But why should Erdogan stop with the north?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    When your side says that they will use force to defend it it's not a threat. Turks claim sovereignty over it as well. When they say that they will get it back by force if Greece is violating Turkish sovereignty over the islands it's a threat. It's a nice one-sided world view you're using there.
    Yeah, totally not threatening what Turkey's doing to its neighbours.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
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  19. #79

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Wanna bet?
    Greece is the only "party concerned" left in the region, the other two being Great Britain and Italy. Turkey does not have a valid claim on any of those islands, nor on Cyprus:
    Let's bet. You can't find a clause where it gives Agathonisi to Greece. Turkey also has no claim over the island of Cyprus other than the ones laid out in the guarantor agreement you conveniently ignored.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    And yet...
    That's a nice add by Anadolu. But why should Erdogan stop with the north?
    Yeah, totally not threatening what Turkey's doing to its neighbours.
    Yes, Turkey defended the interests of Turkish Cypriots back in 1974, they can do the same for their own citizens. When Greeks say it's a statement of self-defense, when Turks say it's threat of apocalypse...
    The Armenian Issue

  20. #80
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post


    Your argument that bases itself on Turkey's domestic jet fighter project seems to miss the remark. We're talking about rivalry within the context of Lockheed Martin's cooperation with Turkey on F-35s... Whether Turkey will buy more Russian systems is dependent on price and capability. If Russian systems are cost effective, why not get them? It's not like Turkey is the first ally to use Russian equipment... F-35s don't really say that we want to do offense. As I said, they're glorified missile platforms. They say we want to do offense when its OK with USA as it further ties Turkey's dependency to them. As I said before, the SOM (high precision mid range missile) project is the one that says Turkey can do offense.
    The SOMJ used from and F-35 is a substantially more robust striking platform than the F-16 in terms of a first strike. I was not saying Turkey should not buy Russian in fact having bought the S-400 they should by the accompanying AA defense systems. Particularly because Turkey lookes to be lacking a Gen for 4.5 or 5 plane for a while. I would think avoiding SU-57 would something to do given India walked.

    It's not like Turkey is the first ally to use Russian equipment.
    Although in the context of NATO and Japan - how many top line purchases vs more or less legacy gear slowly being retired?
    Last edited by conon394; July 22, 2019 at 12:25 PM.
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