Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

[Exarch]

US promises Turkey ‘constraints’ in relations as it kicks it out of F-35 program over S-400

Washington is cutting Ankara out of the F-35 program, because the stealth fighter “cannot coexist” alongside the Russian air defense systems currently being delivered to Turkey, the White House announced.
“The F-35 cannot coexist with a Russian intelligence collection platform that will be used to learn about its advanced capabilities,” White House press secretary Stephanie Grisham announced on Wednesday.
The US has repeatedly threatened to remove Turkey from the international consortium building the F-35 and block deliveries of the jets Ankara has bought and paid for, if the planned purchase of the Russian missiles went ahead. The government of President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has maintained this would be against the rules and said it would buy whatever weapons it wants.

Source: https://www.rt.com/news/464415-us-f35-turkey-s400/

The purpose of NATO is to ensure a captive market for US weapons manufacturers, so the American salesman in the US Government has decided to sanction Turkey for buying russian S-400s rather than the inferior Patriot system.

Basically, Turks forming the largest source of manpower in NATO are supposed to be the human shields and bullet fodder when the war against Russia happens, but by buying Russian weapons and cooperating with the Russians, Turks are betraying their purpose as muslim janissaries for white anglo supremacist interests. By buying S-400s, Turks are defying the diktat of the NATO Secretary General and refusing to continue to be the slave soldiers of tradition. They must be disciplined.

Secondly, the S-400 is simply superior to any US weapons tech available and if the US refuses to supply F-35s, the Turks will simply buy Russian sukhois instead.

EDIT: For those who think this isn't as big as it sounds, the F-35 program alongside other US weapons tech is how the US maintaints it economic and military hegemony:

F-35 Sales Are America’s Belt and Road

The United States uses the fighter jet program to further its own influence while leaving allies dependent.

https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/07/12...belt-and-road/

[Love Mountain]

This is good news for everyone. Turks and the West can finally go their own separate ways. This is another sign that NATO needs to evolve and change or perhaps be disintegrated entirely. Article 5, can be picked up by a successor, like an EU army. Another thing, the S-400 is inferior to it's Western counterpart, the Aegis combat system. Sukhois are inferior for an army that relies or wants to rely heavily on air power. In any case, Su-57 is an inferior LO platform compared to the F-35. Still, for a country like Turkey, it's arguably more important to have a good air defense network rather than a super plane.

[Odenat]

Well, most of Turkish prefers buying S-400s to buy F-35s. Turkey right now does not have an air defence system as USA refused to sell patriots to Turkey, therefore we had to buy S-400s. On the other hand, we have F-16s which are old but can be more than enough, unless Russia declares war. As i think Russia will not declare war to Turkey for the foreseeable future, i think having S-400s then F-35s makes much more sense.

[Tureuki]

I think there will be mutual compromises. Turkey did the right thing by showing determination againts constant pressure, pretty much everyone in Turkey wanted this, opposition included. Now, Turkey will possibly agree to keep the S-400s not activated, in exchange of a major change in US' view of Turkey, cannon fodder, as the op mentioned. Compromises from the US side might include YPG related stuff, lift of economical pressure, weapons sales etc.

[Exarch]

This is good news for everyone. Turks and the West can finally go their own separate ways. This is another sign that NATO needs to evolve and change or perhaps be disintegrated entirely. Article 5, can be picked up by a successor, like an EU army. Another thing, the S-400 is inferior to it's Western counterpart, the Aegis combat system. Sukhois are inferior for an army that relies or wants to rely heavily on air power. In any case, Su-57 is an inferior LO platform compared to the F-35. Still, for a country like Turkey, it's arguably more important to have a good air defense network rather than a super plane.

I think there will be mutual compromises. Turkey did the right thing by showing determination againts constant pressure, pretty much everyone in Turkey wanted this, opposition included. Now, Turkey will possibly agree to keep the S-400s not activated, in exchange of a major change in US' view of Turkey, cannon fodder, as the op mentioned. Compromises from the US side might include YPG related stuff, lift of economical pressure, weapons sales etc.

i don't think it is as peachy as you optimistic folks are making it out to be; this is a huge loss for American arms companies who were looking forward to decades of turks spending money on their armaments and turks were hoping to get choice F-35s as well so they could become the next Ottomon empire.
Secondly, this is Turkey asserting itself as a sovereign nation akin to Iran and Russia which is problematic for NATO which relies on Turks being the expendable non white foot soldiers to die for Anglo hegemony.
Erdogan isn't likely to forget that Americans tried to assassinate him in a coup in 2016 and continue to give sanctuary to Gulen, a CIA asset.

Watch now as Americans break their own laws so as to keep the turks onside as their hopeful foot soldiers for the invasion of Rus.

[95thrifleman]

F35 is a stupid white elephant anyway.

Britain should of never got into it. We could of built the CVs with cats and navalised the Typhoon

[Exarch]

The UK stopped being an independant nation since 1990; anyhow, this just in:
The Turks are refusing to accept their place and rebelling against their Anglo betters:

'Irreparable wounds to relations': Turkey calls on US to rectify ‘mistake’ of F-35 cut-off

Published time: 17 Jul, 2019 22:59

Get short URL

A Russian Antonov military cargo plane, carrying parts of the S-400 missile defense system from Russia, is unloaded after landing at the Murted Air Base in Ankara, Turkey, on July 12, 2019 © Global Look Press / Xinhua

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Turkey has blasted the US decision to kick it out of the F-35 fighter jet program, in response to Ankara buying Russian S-400 air defense systems, as a mistake that will cause permanent damage to the US-Turkish relations.


“This unilateral step is incompatible with the spirit of alliance and does not rely on any legitimate justification,” the Turkish Foreign Ministry said in a strong-worded statement Wednesday, shortly after the White House officially banished Turkey from the fifth-generation stealth jet program.

Looks like all them Kurds and embeded Anglo specops advisors are going to get blown apart by F-16s and NATO rounds, courtesy of the Department of Defence and the Turkish army.

[Love Mountain]

i don't think it is as peachy as you optimistic folks are making it out to be; this is a huge loss for American arms companies who were looking forward to decades of turks spending money on their armaments and turks were hoping to get choice F-35s as well so they could become the next Ottomon empire.
Secondly, this is Turkey asserting itself as a sovereign nation akin to Iran and Russia which is problematic for NATO which relies on Turks being the expendable non white foot soldiers to die for Anglo hegemony.

The F-35 is going to sell over 3,000 planes over the next 20 years. United States alone will be ordering 2,500. The 100 planes that Lockheed will be giving up, aren't going to be having them begging and crawling. They may certainly deploy significant lobbying efforts to secure the sale, but that's an investment of a few million for several billions dollars of revenue. Considering the trillion plus dollars Lockheed is already in the process of making, this isn't exactly a catastrophe or even a significant setback. There may well come a time when Turkey will be allowed to have the F-35, in 10-15 years if relations improve.

Erdogan isn't likely to forget that Americans tried to assassinate him in a coup in 2016 and continue to give sanctuary to Gulen, a CIA asset.

Watch now as Americans break their own laws so as to keep the turks onside as their hopeful foot soldiers for the invasion of Rus.

Uh huh.

F35 is a stupid white elephant anyway.

Britain should of never got into it. We could of built the CVs with cats and navalised the Typhoon

You would've spent more money on an inferior plane. Though there are certainly reasons to do it, like developing your domestic industry. Of course the Typhoon is a multinational effort, and I question just how much Britain would've been willing to cooperate with other EU countries considering Brexit and all.

[Vanoi]

Lost the link to the article but there was speculation that Erdogsn wanted S-400s so he could protect himself from his own air force. Patriots wouldn't be able to target NATO aircraft in the case of another coup attempt.

[Exarch]

Lost the link to the article but there was speculation that Erdogsn wanted S-400s so he could protect himself from his own air force. Patriots wouldn't be able to target NATO aircraft in the case of another coup attempt.

Dont think it would be necessary after the coup; all of the Gulenists and disloyal remnants would've been driven off or tortured to death, even the ones who tried to get asylum in NATO bases would've had to listen to their families being tortured to death.

S-400s are simply superior to any NATO equivalent; it's the reason even a state Chosen by God like Israel is fearful of the S-400 and flies in fear of it.

[conon394]

S-400s are simply superior to any NATO equivalent; it's the reason even a state Chosen by God like Israel is fearful of the S-400 and flies in fear of it.

I would agree they probably have a range advantage, but seeing a Russia is not exactly transparent with test results I not taking Russian PR at face value, also doesn't Russia usually tweak down its export versions?

You might consider the saga of the Lada class subs you the one where a decade ago they were going to not improved Kilos but a new class with world besting AIP? Umm well that Russian AIP never worked out like the press releases.


------------

F35 is a stupid white elephant anyway.

I would not say that. Its overpriced for sure and in retrospect the Swiss army knife should be dead for it. Two - perhaps 3 planes should have been built w/o concurrency. But once you swallow the some early planes only ever going to spare parts or trainers, Its an improvement in many areas. The USMC corp do get upgrade over legacy f-18s and Harriers, as will anyone who wants their small quasi carriers to provide some CAP. The Air Force looses out they really need more F-22s but the decision to buy F-15E/CXs will probably make a smaller F-35 fleet useful.

If the Pentagon has a white elephant now its the LCS (which needs to be stopped cold) its truly useless. At best the existing ones if aggressively automated and with more bolt on defenses - they might provide really good test targets.

[PointOfViewGun]

Finally. This was a project Turkey should have stepped away from from the beginning. They should have investigated in a European project. The S-400s was an exhaust for that. Nonetheless, it's an undesirable outcome for both parties. It will be interesting to see if the money Turkey investigated in the F-35 project will come back. In any scenario, this move will likely strengthen the already ongoing tactic to invest in a domestic project backed by foreign suppliers; TAI TF-X. There are already a number of serious participants. The plane was designed by BAE. The engine is built by Eurojet or GE subsidiaries. It will take years to develop this plane and the plane won't be near as good as F-35 but all the agreements are done with technology transfer in mind. In the long run, Turkey gets hell of a lot more from that.

Lost the link to the article but there was speculation that Erdogsn wanted S-400s so he could protect himself from his own air force. Patriots wouldn't be able to target NATO aircraft in the case of another coup attempt.

That's likely baseless conspiracy talk as Turkey did try to buy the Patriot system but the price was much more expensive and the USA congress was not willing to sell it to Turkey.

[Common Soldier]

This is good news for everyone. Turks and the West can finally go their own separate ways. This is another sign that NATO needs to evolve and change or perhaps be disintegrated entirely. Article 5, can be picked up by a successor, like an EU army. Another thing, the S-400 is inferior to it's Western counterpart, the Aegis combat system. Sukhois are inferior for an army that relies or wants to rely heavily on air power. In any case, Su-57 is an inferior LO platform compared to the F-35. Still, for a country like Turkey, it's arguably more important to have a good air defense network rather than a super plane.

At one time Turkey was a useful Ally to contain communism, but with the fall off the Soviet Union, Russian is simply not that big a threat and so Turkey's cooperation isn't as essential.

Turkey is currently going against nominal democratic values NATO theoretically stands for, and Tukey has not apologized or acknowledged the genocide in Armenia, or its occupation of northern Cyprus.

We are Turkey has also been attacking some of the US best allies in the Mideast, the Kurds, and the Kurds have been the most effective US allies in fighting ISIS.

It is not in just one area, but in an number of areas of that Turkey is working against US interest. A Turkish-American NASA scientist was just home visiting his family, when he was caught up in the Turkish dictator power grab, and is now languishing in jail being falsely convicted of being an American spy. I.dont know why Turkey wasn't expelled from NATO, it currently isn't enhancing the security of NATO, and the majority of Turks seem ok with the abritrary arrest and imprisonment of huge numbers of Turk and even citizens of other countries. Given that Turkey isn't even anywhwere near the Atlantic, and seems to have jettison Western principles.

We I don't see why Turkey should be in NATO, or even want to be in NATO. The Russians simply are not the threat the old Soviet Union was, and Turkey would be better off with Russia on it's own that being part of an obsolete NATO alliance against something that isn't that big a threat to them. While Russia is still a potential threat to some of NATO's new Eastern Europe members, it really doesn't have the capacity to threaten Turkey, which means the interest of of a number of NATO's member are at odds with Turkey. While it is at odds with Turkey's interest to form Kurdish state, it would be in the interest of the US to have one in the region. If the Kurdish region in Syria were to break away and form their own country, it would be a benefit to the US, since Syria was never a US ally. The Kurds have been the most effective group the US has been working with in battle Islamic radicLs like ISIS, and the Kurds were the happiest group in Iraq to see Saddam fall.

[conon394]

At one time Turkey was a useful Ally to contain communism, but with the fall off the Soviet Union, Russian is simply not that big a threat and so Turkey's cooperation isn't as essential.

Turkey is currently going against nominal democratic values NATO theoretically stands for, and Tukey has not apologized or acknowledged the genocide in Armenia, or its occupation of northern Cyprus. Turkey has also been attacking some of the US best allies in the Mideast, the Kurds, and Mong the most effective in fighting ISIS. It is not in just one area, but in an number of areas of hat And urkey is working against US interest. When it comes to trating non Muslim minorities , Turkey is even more intolerant than it has been in the past. A Turkish-American NASA scientist was just home visiting his family, when he was caught up in the Turkish dictator power grab, and is now languishing in jail being falsely convicted of being an American spy. I.dont know why Turkey wasn't expelled from NATO, it currently isn't enhancing the security of NATO, and the majority of Turks seem ok with the abritrary arrest and imprisonment of huge numbers of Turk and even citizens of other countries. Given that Turkey isn't even anywhwere near the Atlantic, and seems to have jettison Western principles, I don't see why Turkey should be in NATO, or even want to be in NATO. The Russians simply are not the threat the old Soviet Union was, and Turkey would be better off with Russia on it's own that being part of an obsolete NATO alliance against something that isn't that big a threat to them. While Russia is still a potential threat to some of NATO's new Eastern Europe members, it really doesn't have the capacity to threaten Turkey, which means the interest of of a number of NATO's member are at odds with Turkey. While it is at odds with Turkey's interest to fom. Kurdish state, it would be in the interest of the US to have one in the region. If the Kurdish region in Syria were to break away and form their own country, it would be a benefit to the US, since Syria was never a US ally. The Kurds have been the most effective group the US has been working with in battle Islamic radicLs like ISIS, and the Kurds we're the happiest group in Iraq to see Saddam fall.

I would not disagree the signs of drifting apart have clear for a while back to the EU giving Turkey a stiff arm. But Turkey in NATO does still keep a lid Turkey/Greek Tension boiling over although I suppose Turkey out would mean Greece would have NATO backing vs Turkey could be ugly.

[PointOfViewGun]

At one time Turkey was a useful Ally to contain communism, but with the fall off the Soviet Union, Russian is simply not that big a threat and so Turkey's cooperation isn't as essential.

Turkey is currently going against nominal democratic values NATO theoretically stands for, and Tukey has not apologized or acknowledged the genocide in Armenia, or its occupation of northern Cyprus.

We are Turkey has also been attacking some of the US best allies in the Mideast, the Kurds, and the Kurds have been the most effective US allies in fighting ISIS.

It is not in just one area, but in an number of areas of that Turkey is working against US interest. A Turkish-American NASA scientist was just home visiting his family, when he was caught up in the Turkish dictator power grab, and is now languishing in jail being falsely convicted of being an American spy. I.dont know why Turkey wasn't expelled from NATO, it currently isn't enhancing the security of NATO, and the majority of Turks seem ok with the abritrary arrest and imprisonment of huge numbers of Turk and even citizens of other countries. Given that Turkey isn't even anywhwere near the Atlantic, and seems to have jettison Western principles.

We I don't see why Turkey should be in NATO, or even want to be in NATO. The Russians simply are not the threat the old Soviet Union was, and Turkey would be better off with Russia on it's own that being part of an obsolete NATO alliance against something that isn't that big a threat to them. While Russia is still a potential threat to some of NATO's new Eastern Europe members, it really doesn't have the capacity to threaten Turkey, which means the interest of of a number of NATO's member are at odds with Turkey. While it is at odds with Turkey's interest to form Kurdish state, it would be in the interest of the US to have one in the region. If the Kurdish region in Syria were to break away and form their own country, it would be a benefit to the US, since Syria was never a US ally. The Kurds have been the most effective group the US has been working with in battle Islamic radicLs like ISIS, and the Kurds were the happiest group in Iraq to see Saddam fall.

NATO stands for jack these days. NATO membership of Turkey did not stop USA from sponsoring coups in Turkey for decades. People should kindly get off their high horses. USA have been harboring the guy who had to flee Turkey because he was caught on tape saying that his followers should remain secret till they obtain enough government positions. They backed the very same people that created the current oppressive government. NATO membership meant nothing when for decades USA moved directly and exclusively against the interests of Turkey. Expect no sympathy with such a one-sided ignorant position on the USA-Turkey relations.

[conon394]

NATO stands for jack these days. NATO membership of Turkey did not stop USA from sponsoring coups in Turkey for decades. People should kindly get off their high horses. USA have been harboring the guy who had to flee Turkey because he was caught on tape saying that his followers should remain secret till they obtain enough government positions. They backed the very same people that created the current oppressive government. NATO membership meant nothing when for decades USA moved directly and exclusively against the interests of Turkey. Expect no sympathy with such a one-sided ignorant position on the USA-Turkey relations.

Yep no agency by anyone in Turkey on those coups. But Common Soldier is more or less right Turkey and NATO the EU were driven together by the cold war its its increasing clear they are drifting apart. You could and can bring on complaints on all sides. All reasonably valid from everyone's own point of view. In this case Turkey is still a supplier for components of the F-35 it will be interesting to see in the US disengages there as well - that would no doubt cost the US (in finding alternatives) but would be a stronger signal of separation. Turkey could then of course eject the US from Incirlik. Who knows Trump might like that I'm sure he thinks Turkey is not paying enough to have a US airbase.

[Vanoi]

Gullen only became a problem with Erdogan needed a scape goat. Stop blaming the US for the coups when Turks were more than willing to coup their own government.

Thats the problem. Turkey's interests do not go above the interests of NATO.

[Tureuki]

Gulen has always been a problem, they have been usurping positions for decades, stealing critical exam questions etc. Erdoğan just ignored that problem because they seemed to be on the same side until recently.

Turks were not willing to coup their own government, that's why it failed miserably, unless you consider a brainwashed, CIA backed tiniest minority "Turks". They had no popular support, they only had some critical positions they usurped, that didn't helped much.

Gulenist general arriving at Spec Ops HQ to take over, gets shot in head by a sergeant major(who has been killed by his guards afterwards) ;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMI0gB4ysxo&t=80s

[conon394]

Turks were not willing to coup their own government, that's why it failed miserably, unless you consider a brainwashed, CIA backed tiniest minority "Turks". They had no popular support, they only had some critical positions they usurped, that didn't helped much.

I'm pretty sure he meant the longer list back the 60s not the recent failed one.

[Vanoi]

It failed for a lot of reasons but i was actually referring to the other coups throughout Turkey's history. Gullen has lived in the US for years. How many times has Turkey requested an extradition again?

And don't give me that Gullenist excuse. Turkey arrested thousands of people and some foreigners as well trying to claim they were all Gullenists. Not to mention the over 100,000 people who were accused of being Gullenists and fired from their jobs and ostracized.