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Thread: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

  1. #41

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    First of all: Part of the reason for the S-400 deal is domestic: Turkey had that attempted coup, and part of the air force participated in it. Erdogan cannot depend on it, and needs a different way to protect its airspace. They are most likely going to be stationed somewhere around Ankara. Turkey's announcement to use it separately from the rest fits that.

    Secondly: I'm amazed at the assertions about military technology that are being thrown around. Even as an engineer, I do not feel qualified to comment on most of them. They are unknoweable.
    Some of them are demonstrably wrong. The American counterpart to the S-400 is not Aegis, but the Patriot system. Hence why that's the one that was offered to the Turks. The Patriot system has had a demonstrably abysmal performance in all its conflicts, lately even under favourable circumstances against Yemen (the Houthis even claim to have destroyed one of their batteries).

    Military experts across the world are pretty much in alignment that the two aren't even in the same weight class, even when the Turkish S-400 afaik aren't going to equip the 400km-range missiles, but only the 250km range ones. Aegis on the other hand is to my knowledge either ship based or fixed.

    The claim that Sukhois are inferior to e.g. F-16 & F-35 is also simply outlandish. The F-35 isn't even ready yet. It might be better when it is done, but that's when we get into specifics which I do not have knowledge to. The one statement I do feel safe to say is that it is unlikely to ever be the invisible Wunderwaffe the US military tries to hype it up to. Stealth simply doesn't work that way. The F-16 on the other hand is simply old.

    Most importantly, it's not nearly as important what weapons you have as how you're going to use them.
    You can expect the US to use its F-16 far better than most countries their aircraft, even if they're better. You can also expect the Russian air force to perform better than most of the opposition it is going to face.
    The Sukhoi's, at the very minimum, give any nation with small budget a flexible weapons platform that can carry a lot, fly far and is maneuverable.

    The Su-34 doesn't even have a western analogue. Doesn't matter at all though, since Sukhoi's are not part of the deal.
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  2. #42

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Trump Veto of F-35s for Turkey Could Force Ankara to Buy Russian Aircraft
    https://www.voanews.com/europe/trump...ssian-aircraft

    Guess Erdogan has decided to go with Russian sukhois now that he has loyal pilots in the air force, and that the Gulenists have now been tortured to death.

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Turkey would be better off making their own fighter. Sukhois wouldn't be compatible for much of the Turkish military and they'd have to re-train a lot of their pilots.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Secondly: I'm amazed at the assertions about military technology that are being thrown around. Even as an engineer, I do not feel qualified to comment on most of them. They are unknoweable....
    Well that is the problem we are so far from a peer war that we are looking at systems built on attenuated war data, and on all sides tests that are often laughably non realistic when they are reported at all.

    The Patriot system has had a demonstrably abysmal performance in all its conflicts, lately even under favourable circumstances against Yemen (the Houthis even claim to have destroyed one of their batteries).
    Later versions of the Patriot have performed well, and it not the S-400 has been used as much, Realistically you would need to compare the S-400 to a wider range of US systems than the Patriot, but the Patriot/Israel joint developments, the MEADS and the THAAD. There is no doubt that Russia has been more persistently invested in AA defense across the board. And its really only in the last decade the US has seriously looked at what happens if you don't have air superiority. The S-300/4000/500 have a nice unity of platform where the US may be replicating the capability but across 3-4 distinct systems. Notably I would say the Russians have the edge in shorter range AA to cover their batteries an area the US has backslid in.

    That would be one operated by the house of Saud? They are older versions and I think I would question how well they have been maintained.

    The one statement I do feel safe to say is that it is unlikely to ever be the invisible Wunderwaffe the US military tries to hype it up to
    I'm not sure that anyone but Trump and the Lockheed sales team actually say that.

    The Su-34 doesn't even have a western analogue. Doesn't matter at all though, since Sukhoi's are not part of the deal.
    The new 2 seat version of F-15X looks abut equivalent.

    They are not included now but I can't find any really solid indicators that the Turkish F-16 replacement is not a moving target of wishing for a lane. Since the US seems to locking Turkey out of multiple items so far so Russia might be the option. But my Impression India has not really benefited from the grab bag approach to acquisitions.


    -------




    Quote Originally Posted by Vanoi View Post
    Turkey would be better off making their own fighter. Sukhois wouldn't be compatible for much of the Turkish military and they'd have to re-train a lot of their pilots.
    Can they rapidly though? Will the US lean on European partners to back out? Will Turkey demand too much tech transfer?
    Last edited by conon394; July 19, 2019 at 09:47 AM.
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  5. #45
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Double
    Last edited by conon394; July 19, 2019 at 09:46 AM.
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Not rapidly probably. As long as things don't get worse between Europe and Turkey i'm sure they'll be able to aquire what they need.

    The real challenge will be the fighter itself. Its gotta be able to preform or uts just a waste of money.

  7. #47

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Realistically, Turkey only needs a plane that is capable of accurately bombing PKK targets near Syrian and Iraqi border. I doubt there will be any major conflict against any major force to require a capable fighter. Even if a situation requires such capability they will have S-400s to take down any plane near the border. A domestic fighter plane will initially be needed to be a capable bomber. They can use existing fighters for actual dog fights in the meantime. While they're old they're not dead.
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  8. #48
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Considering the current tensions in Syria and Cyprus Turkey's going to need fighters. S-400s are capable but still vunerable to any nation with SEAD abilities.

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Realistically, Turkey only needs a plane that is capable of accurately bombing PKK targets near Syrian and Iraqi border. I doubt there will be any major conflict against any major force to require a capable fighter. Even if a situation requires such capability they will have S-400s to take down any plane near the border. A domestic fighter plane will initially be needed to be a capable bomber. They can use existing fighters for actual dog fights in the meantime. While they're old they're not dead.
    That would a significant alteration to what the current administration was aiming for. 100 f-35s(*), and maybe Bs for the new mini carrier and a home grown plane that is an upgrade over the F-16 (C/D?) that says power projection. The thing of the F-16s is not so much spare parts but overall air frame degradation. The USAF had to pull trigger on the F-15X because the simple fact is the F-22 got attenuated the F-35 will never be a dog fighter (and the US is adverse to BVR w/o a real war) and too many F-15 air frames are too old and need to just be emergency parts or spares in the bone yard. If turkey is longing a lot flight hours there is limit to how long it can fly its F-16s w/o some kind of significant refurbishment and that might cut into the capacity that would be trying to build its own replacement.


    Also recall the F-35 sales book as well about how it can take on all kinds of roles that specialized planes do as well - electronic warfare, sensing, etc. I don't buy it not in a one seat fighter... but Its a nominal theoretical capacity.
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  10. #50

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Well, the F-35 was demonstrably a mission creep failure. Because what it was envisioned to be and what it became are two very different things. It should take on all kinds of roles, therefore it's mediocre for most tasks and abysmal at at least one (CAS). Main reason they did this was because they hoped for costeffectiveness. Cost instead exploded. The savings they're hoping for by the 3 types being similar are never going to come, as the parts of the three variants are 70% different, iirc. If we go through demonstrable data, most of it is mediocre or even bad.

    I don't say this to diss it, because god knows anyone who's had to work with the government knows that's always the game they try to play and they're a pain compared to private sector where, if you're dealing with professionals, they definitely know what they want. But that's the information attenuable to me.

    The strengths of the F-35 that are always referred to are the ones that I cannot work with. That's when you'll hear about RCS "the size of a ping pong ball" (probably only under the most ideal circumstances only an attacker can hope for), superior sensors & network centric warfare magic. If that really happens, I might be impressed then. It also depends on what the adversaries try and do against it. Coating becomes redundant if the adversary uses low frequency radars; then there's eigenfrequency which no plane will ever be able to do anything about.

    Not that it's that different with the S-400. Due to incremental design and it being the Soviet strongpoint we can be pretty sure it works about as well as advertised, but there's going to be a big difference depending on who's using it. E.g. Russia vs Syria. And in Russian/Soviet doctrine, they're not supposed to be used alone. That's where Buk's & Pantsir's come in.

    But if you really want to talk about what plane Turkey should use, I'll once again refer to the price tag of the F35 and then to the Turkish economy, which is tanking (not just because Trump, he's merely exacerbating it and Erdogan is probably glad he's got someone exterior to blame for a bubble that is entirely his fault).

    So you've got a state to run that is still quite big, not exactly rich, but also no adversaries near its own strength, and choice a) is a plane that costs a lot and (if you believe it) cryptonite if you fight superman, but you won't fight superman and it costs a lot; and choice b) is a plane that is very cost effective and probably better at what you need it for. Which plane to choose? Hmmmmmm!

    Doesn't even have to be a Sukhoi. Why not take a Rafale or a Gripen?
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  11. #51

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by dogukan View Post
    The "nationalists" who boast about Turkey's "ballsy" move do not realize a lot of things.

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Not that it's that different with the S-400. Due to incremental design and it being the Soviet strongpoint we can be pretty sure it works about as well as advertised, but there's going to be a big difference depending on who's using it. E.g. Russia vs Syria. And in Russian/Soviet doctrine, they're not supposed to be used alone. That's where Buk's & Pantsir's come in.
    I'd say as deployed by Russia they system has depth and redundancy, in Syria for example not so much.

    Well, the F-35 was demonstrably a mission creep failure. Because what it was envisioned to be and what it became are two very different things. It should take on all kinds of roles, therefore it's mediocre for most tasks and abysmal at at least one (CAS). Main reason they did this was because they hoped for costeffectiveness. Cost instead exploded. The savings they're hoping for by the 3 types being similar are never going to come, as the parts of the three variants are 70% different, iirc. If we go through demonstrable data, most of it is mediocre or even bad.
    Well yes true yes but the potential for failure of the Swiss army approach was fairly viable back in the day and objections were shunted aside all too easy.

    But if you really want to talk about what plane Turkey should use, I'll once again refer to the price tag of the F35 and then to the Turkish economy, which is tanking (not just because Trump, he's merely exacerbating it and Erdogan is probably glad he's got someone exterior to blame for a bubble that is entirely his fault).
    But it still implied he wanted a strike capacity not just defense.

    I don't say this to diss it, because god knows anyone who's had to work with the government knows that's always the game they try to play and they're a pain compared to private sector where, if you're dealing with professionals, they definitely know what they want. But that's the information attenuable to me.
    It does need some diss-ing so as to avoid the trap in the future. That being said it will still be a clear upgrade for everyone who needs to replace or wants Harrier capacity. Outside of that I'd accept the increase in unit cost to have it limited, go with more F-15xs and start serious work on dedicated replacements for the Air Force and Navy.

    Doesn't even have to be a Sukhoi. Why not take a Rafale or a Gripen?
    The Gripen by all accounts would be a good upgrade for the F-16 and supposedly less expensive to operate. The Su-34 has a better weapons load and lot more options. If I was Turkey and I going to really split might as well start there. But Gripen might be a better choice to say we not splitting but just maybe we want to eat at the W European buffet Sweden seems OK with a split on export and local build.
    Last edited by conon394; July 19, 2019 at 12:15 PM.
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  13. #53

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Yet I know of no country other than Sweden that uses the Gripen. As for the Rafale, I think that it would not be realistic to see it in any significant numbers in the turkish arsenal, due to its high cost. The famous TFX won't be coming for quite some time, and realistically, Turkey is a country that can't even produce a diesel engine for the Altay, I doubt that it would be able to produce something as sophisticated as a modern fighter jet on its own.
    In an interview to a well known Greek site concerned with issues on defense (militaire.gr) the president of the hellenic defense industries said that he would have no problem if in a dogfight he were to see a turkish pilot flying an exclusively turkish aircraft (the TFX) and a Greek pilot flying an exclusively US aircraft. The difference in production quality would be such that I doubt there would even be a dogfight.
    Turkish-made hardware, military included, is of notoriously bad quality.

  14. #54

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    That would a significant alteration to what the current administration was aiming for. 100 f-35s(*), and maybe Bs for the new mini carrier and a home grown plane that is an upgrade over the F-16 (C/D?) that says power projection. The thing of the F-16s is not so much spare parts but overall air frame degradation. The USAF had to pull trigger on the F-15X because the simple fact is the F-22 got attenuated the F-35 will never be a dog fighter (and the US is adverse to BVR w/o a real war) and too many F-15 air frames are too old and need to just be emergency parts or spares in the bone yard. If turkey is longing a lot flight hours there is limit to how long it can fly its F-16s w/o some kind of significant refurbishment and that might cut into the capacity that would be trying to build its own replacement.

    Also recall the F-35 sales book as well about how it can take on all kinds of roles that specialized planes do as well - electronic warfare, sensing, etc. I don't buy it not in a one seat fighter... but Its a nominal theoretical capacity.
    I believe Turkey's involvement in and purchase of F-35s was primarily due to alignment purposes with NATO. Otherwise, does Turkey really need 100 F-35s in any context? Not really. Maybe 20 or so. Turkey's needs lie more on a close contact fighter. Yes, F-16 are getting old. Yes, they need to be replaced. However, F-35s in such a large fleet is not the answer. F-35s are meant to be a floating missile and reconnaissance platform; detect and eliminate the threat from a distance. That's their primary purpose. Anything that comes after is an after thought. That's why it exhibited many design flaws as well as lacking stats. By the way, Turkey have been involved with producing F-16s as well as their structural and electronic upgrades taking place in Eskişehir. If there is any possibility to extend their lifetime till, let's say, 2030, they will be able to do it.
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  15. #55
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I believe Turkey's involvement in and purchase of F-35s was primarily due to alignment purposes with NATO. Otherwise, does Turkey really need 100 F-35s in any context? Not really. Maybe 20 or so. Turkey's needs lie more on a close contact fighter. Yes, F-16 are getting old. Yes, they need to be replaced. However, F-35s in such a large fleet is not the answer. F-35s are meant to be a floating missile and reconnaissance platform; detect and eliminate the threat from a distance. That's their primary purpose. Anything that comes after is an after thought. That's why it exhibited many design flaws as well as lacking stats. By the way, Turkey have been involved with producing F-16s as well as their structural and electronic upgrades taking place in Eskişehir. If there is any possibility to extend their lifetime till, let's say, 2030, they will be able to do it.
    I won't deny you are arguing what one might call the rational point of view. I still think Turkish leadership seemed to be saying we want to a big fish in the ME pond and be able flex muscle. More S-400s and an improvement over the existing F-16s at the same number says we a don't mess with us 100+ F-35s say we can mess with you. Now the expense of that does seem a bit high because I'm not sure what Turkey might get for that. I suppose you could argue that given Iran's push toward nukes and more ballistic missiles the combination of a robust S-400 defense with the F-35 on attack would balance Iran future capability even if it is expensive. But than again a Turkey happy in NATO should not need to have its own deterrent.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

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  16. #56

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    You can't say this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    Secondly: I'm amazed at the assertions about military technology that are being thrown around. Even as an engineer, I do not feel qualified to comment on most of them. They are unknoweable.
    And then immediately say this

    Some of them are demonstrably wrong. The American counterpart to the S-400 is not Aegis, but the Patriot system. Hence why that's the one that was offered to the Turks. The Patriot system has had a demonstrably abysmal performance in all its conflicts, lately even under favourable circumstances against Yemen (the Houthis even claim to have destroyed one of their batteries).
    And for the record one does not need to be an engineer to be able to comment on military technology. Just as one does not to be a automotive designer to assess an automobile.

    The claim that Sukhois are inferior to e.g. F-16 & F-35 is also simply outlandish. The F-35 isn't even ready yet. It might be better when it is done, but that's when we get into specifics which I do not have knowledge to. The one statement I do feel safe to say is that it is unlikely to ever be the invisible Wunderwaffe the US military tries to hype it up to. Stealth simply doesn't work that way. The F-16 on the other hand is simply old.
    The F-35 already has a better combat history than many Russian aircraft, and it really is the "invisible Wunderwaffe" it says it is.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I believe Turkey's involvement in and purchase of F-35s was primarily due to alignment purposes with NATO. Otherwise, does Turkey really need 100 F-35s in any context? Not really. Maybe 20 or so. Turkey's needs lie more on a close contact fighter. Yes, F-16 are getting old. Yes, they need to be replaced. However, F-35s in such a large fleet is not the answer. F-35s are meant to be a floating missile and reconnaissance platform; detect and eliminate the threat from a distance. That's their primary purpose. Anything that comes after is an after thought. That's why it exhibited many design flaws as well as lacking stats. By the way, Turkey have been involved with producing F-16s as well as their structural and electronic upgrades taking place in Eskişehir. If there is any possibility to extend their lifetime till, let's say, 2030, they will be able to do it.
    The F-35 debacle is primarily about technology transfer and how secure these secrets are in Turkish hands. I doubt there will be controversy if Turkey wants to buy the latest F-15 or F-16 variant. In fact, I'm quite sure many in US would see it as a political victory. Even easier, Dassault, Saab and Airbus will gladly sell the latest Rafale, Gripen, and Eurofighter to Turkey. So I don't think there's a shortage of options, or Western technology for Turkey to grab off the shelf.

    As you mentioned before, they can always redouble their efforts on the TAI-FXk, or another domestic aerospace program. Or they can attach themselves to any of the other aerospace programs that are being developed right now. South Korea will surely welcome a serious partner to the K-FX program.

  17. #57

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    I won't deny you are arguing what one might call the rational point of view. I still think Turkish leadership seemed to be saying we want to a big fish in the ME pond and be able flex muscle. More S-400s and an improvement over the existing F-16s at the same number says we a don't mess with us 100+ F-35s say we can mess with you. Now the expense of that does seem a bit high because I'm not sure what Turkey might get for that. I suppose you could argue that given Iran's push toward nukes and more ballistic missiles the combination of a robust S-400 defense with the F-35 on attack would balance Iran future capability even if it is expensive. But than again a Turkey happy in NATO should not need to have its own deterrent.
    There is the conflict between appearing to project power and actually project power. Turkey of the late 90s could project power in the Middle East. Today, it's not taken seriously. So, having fancy F-35s will not help Turkey much in the end. S-400s, however, provide a real defensive capability that Turkey lacked for so long. I don't really think that F-35s present a magic capability that gives the message that Turkey can mess with others. I believe projects like SOM (high precision middle range missile which was accepted to be integrated into the F-35 program) accomplishes that much better.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sukiyama View Post
    The F-35 debacle is primarily about technology transfer and how secure these secrets are in Turkish hands. I doubt there will be controversy if Turkey wants to buy the latest F-15 or F-16 variant. In fact, I'm quite sure many in US would see it as a political victory. Even easier, Dassault, Saab and Airbus will gladly sell the latest Rafale, Gripen, and Eurofighter to Turkey. So I don't think there's a shortage of options, or Western technology for Turkey to grab off the shelf.

    As you mentioned before, they can always redouble their efforts on the TAI-FXk, or another domestic aerospace program. Or they can attach themselves to any of the other aerospace programs that are being developed right now. South Korea will surely welcome a serious partner to the K-FX program.
    You seem to be confusing F-35s with S-400s. The technology transfer point does not apply to F-35s. That deal was signed long time ago, and Turkey already paid up on its end.
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  18. #58
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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by ioannis76 View Post
    Well, with the administration(s) that Greece has, they will very seldom (if at all) allow the Greek pilots to push that little button in the middle of the stick. On the few occasions they were allowed to, the opponent was soundly defeated. Therefore, why not push the opponent to the limits of his aircraft and take advantage of the fact that eventually his aircraft will suffer such damage that it will make the aircraft prone to failure? No diplomatic incident, plus we save up on missiles.
    Anyway, it's called using a strategic advantage. Turkey has done that by threatening with their numbers and their population. If the turkish army were to fight one vs one, then Turkey would have the right to complain about "fair play".

    Now, Erdogan has helped Greece in two ways, first of all he managed to remove his most competent pilots, and secondly he managed to create a shortage of spare parts for the turkish air force. Sometimes I wonder if he's really an agent working for Greece, but I don't believe that the Greek secret service has such competent agents.

    Now, to our American friends, this is the part where I say "I told you so". I just love it when I get to say that. NATO should break Turkey in three independent states. One should be Constantinople (and perhaps the Aegean coast, under international/western control), the second should be a Kurdish state (SE Turkey, allied to the US) and the third should be Central minor asia (geopolitically irrelevant).
    Mate, we barely have some dozens of functional F-16s. Around 10 Mirage planes are still working. We have 2 (two) operational C-130s, and another pair of C-27s and all 4 of them are constantly malfunctioning. Hell, the Readiness Crews have been rotating to and from the island airbases with the Prime Minister's airplane (the bigger of the 2 Embraer ones) instead. All your talk about air superiority is BS, as is the last paragraph. NATO is not breaking Turkey into parts; "Giannis mou, we are not in Prussia anymore" to quote L. Frank Baum

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    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Mate, we barely have some dozens of functional F-16s. Around 10 Mirage planes are still working. We have 2 (two) operational C-130s, and another pair of C-27s and all 4 of them are constantly malfunctioning. Hell, the Readiness Crews have been rotating to and from the island airbases with the Prime Minister's airplane (the bigger of the 2 Embraer ones) instead. All your talk about air superiority is BS, as is the last paragraph. NATO is not breaking Turkey into parts; "Giannis mou, we are not in Prussia anymore" to quote L. Frank Baum
    And this is the wise thing. Turkey will never attack to Greece even if Greece does not have a single soldier. As there is no chance of attack from Bulgaria, Macedonia and Albania, Greece does not need to spend much on defence.

    On the the other hand, Turkey needs to live with this stupid geography; we have borders to Iran, Syria and Iraq. We need an army, air force and land to air defence. Still, we are decreasing the number of soldiers at our army. Long gone the days of big battles. Nowadays armies need technology and special forces. As it has been mentioned before at this thread, no one in Turkey knows what we will do with those 100 F-35s.

    And ioannis76, i wonder how do you expect NATO to break Turkey at 3 and what will happen to Greece in this case. We have a population of 80 million, when the first bomb drops, millions of people will become refugees. Can you imagine where those millions will run to? To the west of course. And who is the closest EU country? So, better prepare to have 15-20 millions refugees in case of a Western attack. If i was a Greek, i would do everything that Turkey stands safe and in a single piece.

  20. #60

    Default Re: Turkey Kicked Out Of F-35 Program, NATO Compromised By Turkish Treachery

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn View Post
    Mate, we barely have some dozens of functional F-16s. Around 10 Mirage planes are still working. We have 2 (two) operational C-130s, and another pair of C-27s and all 4 of them are constantly malfunctioning. Hell, the Readiness Crews have been rotating to and from the island airbases with the Prime Minister's airplane (the bigger of the 2 Embraer ones) instead. All your talk about air superiority is BS, as is the last paragraph. NATO is not breaking Turkey into parts; "Giannis mou, we are not in Prussia anymore" to quote L. Frank Baum
    You don't seem to have read the post. My point is to push turkish pilots (who are also inexperienced, and from now on they will be using problematic equipment) to the limits of their aircraft. Greek pilots are much more experienced, and will be flying much better maintained equipment. As for the information regarding the HAF practically falling apart, I would like to see your sources.
    Judging from the votes that Varoufakis got in this forum's poll (it was a bit of an eye opener), I see that Turkey has quite a few friends here.
    Last edited by ioannis76; July 20, 2019 at 04:48 AM.

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