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Thread: Italy: Far-right Activists in Possession of Air-to-air Missile

  1. #41

    Default Re: Italy: Far-right Activists in Possession of Air-to-air Missile

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Umm no nobody needs a machine gun in any form. Go collect stamps
    It should be up to an individual to decide what that individual needs, be it firearms, alcohol, tobacco, mind-altering substances or anything else ownership/use of which doesn't infringe on other individuals. There are lots of states in US where one can own automatic weapons and apocalypse hasn't happened there. Same can be said about countries that legalized mind-altering substances. If you don't like machine guns, then don't buy one. Now see how simple that was?

  2. #42

    Default Re: Italy: Far-right Activists in Possession of Air-to-air Missile

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    It should be up to an individual to decide what that individual needs, be it firearms, alcohol, tobacco, mind-altering substances or anything else ownership/use of which doesn't infringe on other individuals. There are lots of states in US where one can own automatic weapons and apocalypse hasn't happened there. Same can be said about countries that legalized mind-altering substances. If you don't like machine guns, then don't buy one. Now see how simple that was?
    Can I collect elements? Like uranium?
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  3. #43

    Default Re: Italy: Far-right Activists in Possession of Air-to-air Missile

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Can I collect elements? Like uranium?
    Not to burst your statist bubble or anything, but US had literal toys that contained it - so technically yes, you can.

  4. #44

    Default Re: Italy: Far-right Activists in Possession of Air-to-air Missile

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Not to burst your statist bubble or anything, but US had literal toys that contained it - so technically yes, you can.
    That's not what I was asking about. With your own standards, can I collect elements like uranium? Or plutonium? You are OK with that, right?
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  5. #45
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: Italy: Far-right Activists in Possession of Air-to-air Missile

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Game over.
    So, to recapitulate, we gradually moved from "they worked for liberal Poroshenko", through "one of them had fought for Azov batallion", into "they attempted to sell the missile to extremists fighting for Ukraine". Admittedly, Basil, this is a remarkable reversal, more dramatic than even Roberto Fiore evolving from a Svoboda fanboy into an ardent support of Kremlin. Anyway, I am glad we both agree that the only link between this case and liberals is that the arrested criminals failed to scam a couple of Neo-Nazis collaborating with Kiev, by trying to sell them a useless rocket. After all, Haftar was also one of their potential customers, but I doubt that the Libyan Army is an agent of cosmopolitanism, either.
    However, I am still waiting for your response, regarding the pro-Russian positions of Forza Nuovo, the fascist group directly implicated in this specific case. Do the cordial relations between Putin and that particular gang of far-right extremists reveal the existence of a global coalition between "patriots" and Nazis, as you had previously, based on misleading information, claimed for the "progressives"?

  6. #46

    Default Re: Italy: Far-right Activists in Possession of Air-to-air Missile

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    So, to recapitulate, we gradually moved from "they worked for liberal Poroshenko", through "one of them had fought for Azov batallion", into "they attempted to sell the missile to extremists fighting for Ukraine". Admittedly, Basil, this is a remarkable reversal, more dramatic than even Roberto Fiore evolving from a Svoboda fanboy into an ardent support of Kremlin. Anyway, I am glad we both agree that the only link between this case and liberals is that the arrested criminals failed to scam a couple of Neo-Nazis collaborating with Kiev, by trying to sell them a useless rocket. After all, Haftar was also one of their potential customers, but I doubt that the Libyan Army is an agent of cosmopolitanism, either.
    However, I am still waiting for your response, regarding the pro-Russian positions of Forza Nuovo, the fascist group directly implicated in this specific case. Do the cordial relations between Putin and that particular gang of far-right extremists reveal the existence of a global coalition between "patriots" and Nazis, as you had previously, based on misleading information, claimed for the "progressives"?
    Abdül, you got it wrong. Those guys didn't fight against Ukraine, they fought FOR it.

    You are correct in that there are some on the Italian right (and left, I might add) that seemed to have fought against Ukraine and are under police investigation, but these ones probably aren't it.

    The misinformation likely stems from a Reuters mistranslation (whether due to confusion or malice is anyone's guess) of the Italian police report, and was taken up by all kinds of media.

    There's this hilarious example where BBC corrected their report from fighting for the separatists to against it, meanwhile, the police report deleted that same reference.
    The police report, minus the three words "contro gli indipendentisti" at the end of the second paragraph can be found here including the modified date:
    https://www.poliziadistato.it/artico...2c9ef299497390



    Nevertheless, it's quite a safe bet on whose side they fought. Other political movements both on the left and right might fight for the separatists, but actual Nazis tend to stick to the Ukraine side.
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  7. #47

    Default Re: Italy: Far-right Activists in Possession of Air-to-air Missile

    Yeah I'm aware of the police report because I read both the versions, kinda wondering why they removed that.

  8. #48
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: Italy: Far-right Activists in Possession of Air-to-air Missile

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    There's this hilarious example where BBC corrected their report from fighting for the separatists to against it, meanwhile, the police report deleted that same reference.
    The police report, minus the three words "contro gli indipendentisti" at the end of the second paragraph can be found here including the modified date:
    https://www.poliziadistato.it/artico...2c9ef299497390
    Well then why did the police remove the last sentence? The second paragraph actually talks about what sparked the investigation and eventually led to the arrest of our rocket-merchants. Nowhere in the report is it clarifed that the criminals had even travelled to Ukraine. In my opinion, what really happened was that the Italian authorities decided to investigate the threat posed by native fascists joining the Donbass conflict. Perhaps everything began with the potential customers mentioned in Basil's source and from there, they gradually unravelled the arms-smuggling ring. I suspect that the arrested Neo-Nazis never really bothered with Crimea and Ukraine, although one of them was a member of an openly pro-Kremlin group.

    This explains why the police initially mentioned their collaboration with Kiev and later deleted the reference, in order not to cause misunderstandings (since not everyone involved and especially the missile-gentlemen was pro-Svoboda). Personally, I don't care much about whether the arrested fascists privately admire Bandera or Putin, but the important thing to remember that Basil's claim of the alliance between Italian Neo-Nazis and the "liberals" of the EU was completely unfounded.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Italy: Far-right Activists in Possession of Air-to-air Missile

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Well then why did the police remove the last sentence? The second paragraph actually talks about what sparked the investigation and eventually led to the arrest of our rocket-merchants. Nowhere in the report is it clarifed that the criminals had even travelled to Ukraine. In my opinion, what really happened was that the Italian authorities decided to investigate the threat posed by native fascists joining the Donbass conflict. Perhaps everything began with the potential customers mentioned in Basil's source and from there, they gradually unravelled the arms-smuggling ring. I suspect that the arrested Neo-Nazis never really bothered with Crimea and Ukraine, although one of them was a member of an openly pro-Kremlin group.

    This explains why the police initially mentioned their collaboration with Kiev and later deleted the reference, in order not to cause misunderstandings (since not everyone involved and especially the missile-gentlemen was pro-Svoboda). Personally, I don't care much about whether the arrested fascists privately admire Bandera or Putin, but the important thing to remember that Basil's claim of the alliance between Italian Neo-Nazis and the "liberals" of the EU was completely unfounded.
    How do you think they ended up finding the arsenal? By not investigating seriously Neo-Nazi groups?

    One of the links I had previously posted says the police has been onto them for months.

  10. #50

    Default Re: Italy: Far-right Activists in Possession of Air-to-air Missile

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    That's not what I was asking about. With your own standards, can I collect elements like uranium? Or plutonium? You are OK with that, right?
    Knock yourself out:
    https://www.amazon.com/Images-SI-Ura.../dp/B000796XXM
    Actually don't. I wouldn't. But legally you can, at your own risk, which is my point.
    Last edited by Heathen Hammer; July 19, 2019 at 06:05 PM.

  11. #51

    Default Re: Italy: Far-right Activists in Possession of Air-to-air Missile

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Knock yourself out:
    https://www.amazon.com/Images-SI-Ura.../dp/B000796XXM
    Actually don't. I wouldn't. But legally you can, at your own risk, which is my point.
    If I were Iranian could I enrich that?
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  12. #52

    Default Re: Italy: Far-right Activists in Possession of Air-to-air Missile

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Well then why did the police remove the last sentence? The second paragraph actually talks about what sparked the investigation and eventually led to the arrest of our rocket-merchants. Nowhere in the report is it clarifed that the criminals had even travelled to Ukraine. In my opinion, what really happened was that the Italian authorities decided to investigate the threat posed by native fascists joining the Donbass conflict. Perhaps everything began with the potential customers mentioned in Basil's source and from there, they gradually unravelled the arms-smuggling ring. I suspect that the arrested Neo-Nazis never really bothered with Crimea and Ukraine, although one of them was a member of an openly pro-Kremlin group.

    This explains why the police initially mentioned their collaboration with Kiev and later deleted the reference, in order not to cause misunderstandings (since not everyone involved and especially the missile-gentlemen was pro-Svoboda). Personally, I don't care much about whether the arrested fascists privately admire Bandera or Putin, but the important thing to remember that Basil's claim of the alliance between Italian Neo-Nazis and the "liberals" of the EU was completely unfounded.
    Again: You're mixing stuff up. There are pro-Russian movements in Italy, and yes, there might be an investigation into some of their right-wing members who fought on the separatist side. I'm not sure that's the same investigation that caught those guys.

    The guys arrested fought on the government side. That's the reference the police report later deleted. In all the years I've not come across a single nazi paraphernalia/symbol on the separatist side.
    On the other hand, you have no lack of them on the Ukrainian side.
    I have seen pictures of a Ukrainian volunteer who apparently desperately tried to shrub (!) his swastika tattoo (!!) of his arm with a brick (!!!) before being captured by the "independisti". Because with it you'll definitely get roughed up. So this would not ever have been a hospitable place for actual fascists.
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Gilligan
    I can't think of a movie where I like it that the bad guy gets dumb, because it's like I want the bad guy to be smart smart smart, so the good guy has to be even smarter!
    Please stop using politics as an excuse for bad writing.
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  13. #53

    Default Re: Italy: Far-right Activists in Possession of Air-to-air Missile

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Knock yourself out:
    https://www.amazon.com/Images-SI-Ura.../dp/B000796XXM
    Actually don't. I wouldn't. But legally you can, at your own risk, which is my point.
    Interesting how you're unable to give a straight answer to what I ask after so many tries. Clearly, you don't wanna say that it should be OK to collect radioactive elements or even better nuclear warheads. This pretty much mean that your own premise is faulty and you don't believe in it. So, why argue for it in the first place?
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  14. #54

    Default Re: Italy: Far-right Activists in Possession of Air-to-air Missile

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Interesting how you're unable to give a straight answer to what I ask after so many tries. Clearly, you don't wanna say that it should be OK to collect radioactive elements or even better nuclear warheads. This pretty much mean that your own premise is faulty and you don't believe in it. So, why argue for it in the first place?
    Huh? You asked me if you can collect radioactive particles, I've referred you to where you can buy them on amazon, which is a very much so "yes" to your question. Why do you have such a problem with individual rights?

  15. #55
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: Italy: Far-right Activists in Possession of Air-to-air Missile

    Quote Originally Posted by Cookiegod View Post
    In all the years I've not come across a single nazi paraphernalia/symbol on the separatist side.
    But you have, just check the second image uploaded in the OP. It depicts Andrea Palmieri, also a member of Forza Nuova, and a proud Neo-Nazi, who joined the separatists, in order to fight against the fascists. According to Mr. Palmieri's somewhat incoherent ideology, it's every Nazi's duty to defend the heritage of Hitler and undermine that of Mussolini. As you can see, his tattoos feature a variety of far-right symbols, including an Iron Cross in the right shoulder. I don't disagree that the separatists are largely sympathetic towards the memory of the Soviet Union and the Great Patriotic, as can be noticed in the naming of the two "states" as People's Republic, but right-wing extremists are also welcomed in several instances. As I mentioned previously, the police never claimed that the three arrested criminals had even travelled to Ukraine and even if it had, that statement was eventually retracted, presumably due to its misleading nature. The only direct clue is that the involved political group, Forza Nuova, has adopted an openly pro-Kremlin stance, encouraging even its fandom to volunteer to fight for the separatists.

  16. #56

    Default Re: Italy: Far-right Activists in Possession of Air-to-air Missile

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Funny, in US these people would actually be called... collectors. Honestly, i don't see any reason why civilians shouldn't own weapons like machine guns. Italy just needs a reform of gun laws and make them similar to US. Same goes for any other Western country. Also that missile obviously missed parts that make it a weapon, so it really isn't an issue.
    In the long run, it is more concerning to see insane politicians like Merkel, Trudeau or Saudi government having whole militaries in their disposal. What if Merkel has another temper fit and decides to invade, say, Hungary for defying her? So yeah, we need politician control, not gun control.
    Antique and private military weapons are made to be unusable and can never be used again and typically comes with documentation both with the owner and at the ATF saying so. This could have munitions put back in it.

    I see what you're posting but ironically in the US you're not allowed to own a working machine gun(legally defined as any weapon that fires more than one round per pull of the trigger) unless it was owned before the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act. It's why a working M16 costs 18,000$ in the US.
    Last edited by Gaidin; July 20, 2019 at 07:43 AM.
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  17. #57

    Default Re: Italy: Far-right Activists in Possession of Air-to-air Missile

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    But you have, just check the second image uploaded in the OP. It depicts Andrea Palmieri, also a member of Forza Nuova, and a proud Neo-Nazi, who joined the separatists, in order to fight against the fascists. According to Mr. Palmieri's somewhat incoherent ideology, it's every Nazi's duty to defend the heritage of Hitler and undermine that of Mussolini. As you can see, his tattoos feature a variety of far-right symbols, including an Iron Cross in the right shoulder. I don't disagree that the separatists are largely sympathetic towards the memory of the Soviet Union and the Great Patriotic, as can be noticed in the naming of the two "states" as People's Republic, but right-wing extremists are also welcomed in several instances. As I mentioned previously, the police never claimed that the three arrested criminals had even travelled to Ukraine and even if it had, that statement was eventually retracted, presumably due to its misleading nature. The only direct clue is that the involved political group, Forza Nuova, has adopted an openly pro-Kremlin stance, encouraging even its fandom to volunteer to fight for the separatists.
    It's not been retracted though. It's been changed slightly, by deleting three words.

    https://twitter.com/MarkAmesExiled/s...66198864781317

    hTose three words change a lot more than you claim. It's no longer an investigation against right wingers fighting AGAINST Ukraine, but FOR it.

    I don't find it likely that they sneak in a mistake like that. Especially since otherwise they'd've likely corrected that to "for the separatists".
    Instead, it's far more likely they had to delete those three words due to it being politically inopportune. No official retraction has been made that I'm aware of that'd have changed the claim from what was previously purported.

    We already agree that the Novorussians also had some (far fewer) right-wing people fighting on their side. You are using the word "Nazis" way too liberally in this context, however. It's like calling all Communists Marxists.

    Also, I don't see a direct link between the Fuorza Nuova and the arrests that had been made other than both movements being right wing and from Italy?
    Quote Originally Posted by Vince Gilligan
    I can't think of a movie where I like it that the bad guy gets dumb, because it's like I want the bad guy to be smart smart smart, so the good guy has to be even smarter!
    Please stop using politics as an excuse for bad writing.
    That being said: A deep philosophical take about god, Nietzsche, Marx & faith.
    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    So deep!
    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    A polished masterpiece!
    Quote Originally Posted by Derc View Post
    Hey! I never said any of those things!

  18. #58

    Default Re: Italy: Far-right Activists in Possession of Air-to-air Missile

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Huh? You asked me if you can collect radioactive particles, I've referred you to where you can buy them on amazon, which is a very much so "yes" to your question. Why do you have such a problem with individual rights?
    I don't really have a problem with individual rights, but I do have a problem when people try to weasel out of a position they dug themselves into instead of coming forward clean and admit their double standards. The fact is that I can't collect nuclear warheads and I should not. Most importantly you wouldn't argue with a straight face that people should be able to do that. Yet, why argue for automatic weapons?
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  19. #59

    Default Re: Italy: Far-right Activists in Possession of Air-to-air Missile

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I don't really have a problem with individual rights, but I do have a problem when people try to weasel out of a position they dug themselves into instead of coming forward clean and admit their double standards. The fact is that I can't collect nuclear warheads and I should not. Most importantly you wouldn't argue with a straight face that people should be able to do that. Yet, why argue for automatic weapons?
    Is this the question you asked?:
    "Can I collect elements? Like uranium?"

  20. #60

    Default Re: Italy: Far-right Activists in Possession of Air-to-air Missile

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Antique and private military weapons are made to be unusable and can never be used again and typically comes with documentation both with the owner and at the ATF saying so. This could have munitions put back in it.

    I see what you're posting but ironically in the US you're not allowed to own a working machine gun(legally defined as any weapon that fires more than one round per pull of the trigger) unless it was owned before the 1986 Firearm Owners Protection Act. It's why a working M16 costs 18,000$ in the US.
    Plenty of machine guns were made prior to 1986, not that that act can and should be repealed.
    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I don't really have a problem with individual rights, but I do have a problem when people try to weasel out of a position they dug themselves into instead of coming forward clean and admit their double standards. The fact is that I can't collect nuclear warheads and I should not. Most importantly you wouldn't argue with a straight face that people should be able to do that. Yet, why argue for automatic weapons?
    You asked about elements. I pointed out you can buy them via amazon. Private ownership of developed nuclear weapons is also a thing, as private sector is heavily involved in development, maintenance and other aspects of nuclear weapons in US in particular. Should an individual or a private entity be able to possess a nuclear warhead? A question of purely hypothetical nature, there is an interesting article on this question, if that subject interests you.
    In any case, I can't help but point out that by comparing nuclear weapons to machine guns you are discrediting your own position as demagogic.

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