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Thread: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

  1. #41
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    Britain is Britain and the Queen is our figurehead and long may that last. I don't know that her heir Charles has the same devotion that his mother attracts but for sure his sons and their wives certainly attract people whether by visit or news and that augurs well for the future of the monarchy. Wise politicians see the benefit of that and those that don't become distant memories to history.

  2. #42

    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    The Left,

    I assume it because our kids are being indoctrinated into a system that has failed them that already have tried it and yet they still cry out that the world owes them something without the pain that goes wth life.
    Breaking News!!!

    Grumpy Old Man complains, "It wasn't like that in my day!" Shock Horror!

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    The thing is about the Queen is that she never lords it up, rather does her duty according to the tradition set before her. She vowed to serve this family of nations to the best of her ability and she has done just that. Surely you must know that if your grandparents and parents were living in a mansion you would have nothing to complain about which puts your argument into the perspective of jealousy, why?
    That makes no sense at all.

    Are people who live in mansions banned from complaining about stuff? Quick someone tell Donald Trump...

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Because in our free market economy everyone has the opportunity to better themselves, even perhaps becoming landed gentry. Oh, and her feckless family all have duties to perform as well some in active service where their lives were just as much in danger as anyone elses.
    Some of the even Royals have jobs!!!! Wow! They really are like us! Well that totally justifies the taxpayer funding their lavish lifestyle... </sarcasm>

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Nobody is demanding that you like the Queen. Unlike our commie countries where if you said your moans you would definitely pay for it one way or another, she demands nothing of you.
    This may surprise you, but many other countries that have freedom of speech are also republics. This privilege isn't exclusive to monarchies.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    I'm sorry but it has everything to do with God for just as the Bible says those that believe on Him He will bless and that was played out in the rise of the British Empire which your family played its part as did mine. Why the Empire is now broken up is because the people have for the most now given up on God.
    Err... no.

    The fall of the British Empire had absolutely nothing to do with God. You really should try reading stuff that isn't the Bible occasionally. You might actually learn something...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...%E2%80%931997)
    https://www.historyextra.com/period/...ritish-empire/

    Life must be really easy when the answer to every question is "God did it".

    Why did my car run out of petrol? We didn't pray hard enough and God showed his anger by making the car stop
    Why does it rain? Because God wants it to
    Why is my computer slow? Because God wants it so
    Why does the milk in my fridge taste funny? Because God wants it that way

    Does this also mean that the rise of China (a non-christian country) is also because God wills it? Or did they, like, pray to Satan or something?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    The we can have it all for nothing Labour lot got into power and made a mess of the economy which they always do and have done in my short lifetime, 76 years, and the Conservatives have always had to come in and sort out the mess, but that's socialism the world over. No personal grudge you say but of course you have and even that can be proven by what the Bible says. The Queen is a Christian, a real Christian, and therefore will be hated by many just as the world hates Christ which you have indicated in your posts.
    I always wonder how that works. How do you, as a Christian, honestly justify the horrific Tory policies towards the poor and vulnerable like:

    Austerity
    public service cuts
    persecuting the disabled via unnecessarily cruel DWP assessments
    wage depression
    the growing inequality in society between rich and poor

    I'm no Christian, but I'm pretty certain Jesus would have encouraged helping the most vulnerable, not the Tory attitude of "screw the poor".



    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Just a final note about the BBC. Next to CNN it's the most left wing biased broadcasting outfit in the world and so if you look at the enormous wages that it hands out to itself one has a great picture of socialism at work.
    So you'd only believe something if it was published by the Daily Mail or Fox News? Tell me, have you ever heard of confirmation bias?

    You do realise the Bible has some pretty radical left wing views like condemning the rich and helping the poor?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    The big nobs get more than Joe Bloggs as usual, why? Because they're the educated elite or so they think and bugger anyone else.
    So some people are paid more than others based on their ability? Sounds exactly like the free market economy you were praising earlier.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    They knock anything that smells of Conservatism and that can be seen by the attacks it is leading against Boris Johnston.
    So the news should really be a North Korea style propaganda channel which only serves to praise the name of our 'Dear Leader' Boris Johnson? Wow, that sounds like the actions of a Communist state to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    You think the Queen is bad but just wait and see what happens to this land if Corbyn and MacDonnel ever get into power. There's no such thing as a socialist utopia, never has been and never will be.
    Yeah, if Corbyn gets in the poor and vulnerable might actually get a fair deal. Sounds almost like the Christian thing to do...

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    The Lord Jesus Christ is the only way.
    Whatever...

  3. #43
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Britain is Britain
    You are a loyal Briton, and is worth mentioning the positive things about the British project.

    As a person of Irish descent I've heard (and even stupidly uttered) imprecations against the evil English and their British Empire but it was not all bad just as it was not all good. The incorporation of Scotland Wales Cornwall and Ireland into the English domain as Great Britain and Ireland brought peace; this is ablessing that cannot be denied or under-rated.

    The price of peace was the destruction of local languages and culture, and suppression of religion but no one was offering a syndico-anarchist safe space. The Irish prior to conquest by the Normans were infamous for raiding all over the place, having pinched most of Caledonia from the Picts as well as bits of Wales.

    The Republic of Ireland became free of Great Britain when it stopped being Irish. They adopted the English language, and pacified themselves. To Britain's credit they did not wage a genocidal war of reconquest as some generals wanted to in the 1920's. Its bitter to reflect that Ireland was incapable of self rule until educated by the British how to do so: India has a similar situation.

    Prior to incorporation into Great Britain the "Celtic Fringe' was less orderly, and given to internecine warfare: in general the English were invited into every part of great Britain and Ireland they ended up ruling by violent locals.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    and the Queen is our figurehead and long may that last.
    Indeed, she has been a most skilled and tactful ruler. there's been one public relations problem: the handling of Diana's death. I suspect that was a clash with the press, especially Murdoch the evil scum. Aside form that she has proved Gerorge Orwell's prediction true. He initially said the Monarchy was doomed by Edward VIII's stupid behaviour, then amended it to say "it would need another long reign, and a monarch with some kind of charm, to put the royal family back where it was in George V's day". 10/10 Lilibet.

    Being a figurehead does not mean she is powerless. Her performance in a hard political crisis in Australia in 1975 was flawless. Basically an utterly arrogant rogue PM was hurriedly reforming and fell over himself bring Australia into the 20th century. His cabinet included some crooks and some goofs and they mucked up (by mucked up I mean tried to secure illegal loans from conmen, staggering incompetence), but had a double majority so the idiots were bullet proof.

    Parts of the Right screwed the constitution to break his majority, and everyone looked to mum in Windsor to fix it. She did nothing, with perfect timing. It was our mess to fix and we didn't, it was very sobering and led to mature reflection. The PM was sacked (quite correctly, by his own choice of Governor General), the corrupt elements of the right were slowly weeded out (it took years by they got it done), and the dust was allowed to settle. Any other course would have allowed Left and Right to blame her for their respective messes instead of restraining over-eager arrogance and criminal behaviour.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    I don't know that her heir Charles has the same devotion that his mother attracts
    Indeed, he is earnest and has good intentions. However he has no charm and has been smeared by the Diana propaganda storm. Rotten politicians would be happy to shift blame for their poor performance onto the monarch or the monarchy, just as they love to shift blame onto Muslims or Christians or gammons or some other group. He's too honest (and too tactless lets be honest) to sit by and let politicians screw his subjects, he says awkward honest things and that creates difficulties.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    but for sure his sons and their wives certainly attract people whether by visit or news and that augurs well for the future of the monarchy.
    Yes both William and Harry have charm and courage on their side.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Wise politicians see the benefit of that and those that don't become distant memories to history.
    Yes but also "I returned and saw beneath the sun/the race is not to the swift nor the battle to the strong/neither yet bread to the wise nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill/but time and chance happeneth to them all".

    Elizabeth I and James I & VI both survived and even prospered when wise hard men were set against their success. Maybe fuddly old Charles can be a king for Britain despite the politicians. Parliament is doing a crap job at the moment.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  4. #44

    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    Breaking News!!!

    Grumpy Old Man complains, "It wasn't like that in my day!" Shock Horror!



    That makes no sense at all.

    Are people who live in mansions banned from complaining about stuff? Quick someone tell Donald Trump...



    Some of the even Royals have jobs!!!! Wow! They really are like us! Well that totally justifies the taxpayer funding their lavish lifestyle... </sarcasm>



    This may surprise you, but many other countries that have freedom of speech are also republics. This privilege isn't exclusive to monarchies.



    Err... no.

    The fall of the British Empire had absolutely nothing to do with God. You really should try reading stuff that isn't the Bible occasionally. You might actually learn something...

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Britis...%E2%80%931997)
    https://www.historyextra.com/period/...ritish-empire/

    Life must be really easy when the answer to every question is "God did it".

    Why did my car run out of petrol? We didn't pray hard enough and God showed his anger by making the car stop
    Why does it rain? Because God wants it to
    Why is my computer slow? Because God wants it so
    Why does the milk in my fridge taste funny? Because God wants it that way

    Does this also mean that the rise of China (a non-christian country) is also because God wills it? Or did they, like, pray to Satan or something?



    I always wonder how that works. How do you, as a Christian, honestly justify the horrific Tory policies towards the poor and vulnerable like:

    Austerity
    public service cuts
    persecuting the disabled via unnecessarily cruel DWP assessments
    wage depression
    the growing inequality in society between rich and poor

    I'm no Christian, but I'm pretty certain Jesus would have encouraged helping the most vulnerable, not the Tory attitude of "screw the poor".





    So you'd only believe something if it was published by the Daily Mail or Fox News? Tell me, have you ever heard of confirmation bias?

    You do realise the Bible has some pretty radical left wing views like condemning the rich and helping the poor?



    So some people are paid more than others based on their ability? Sounds exactly like the free market economy you were praising earlier.



    So the news should really be a North Korea style propaganda channel which only serves to praise the name of our 'Dear Leader' Boris Johnson? Wow, that sounds like the actions of a Communist state to me.



    Yeah, if Corbyn gets in the poor and vulnerable might actually get a fair deal. Sounds almost like the Christian thing to do...



    Whatever...
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Why is that certain people on the left love to proclaim their hostility toward God and their disdain for the faithful whilst at the same time trying to convince us that Jesus was a socialist?

    (Happy now jannies?)

  5. #45
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    A monarchical institution, and the person that embodies it, is the most prominent and obvious egregore of a land and its people. It's part of their identity because it is, thus far, the institution that the people have chosen should represent them and their values. If the British people wanted otherwise, it would be so-- as a segment of British people did make that very choice in 1776.

  6. #46

    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    A monarchical institution, and the person that embodies it, is the most prominent and obvious egregore of a land and its people. It's part of their identity because it is, thus far, the institution that the people have chosen should represent them and their values. If the British people wanted otherwise, it would be so-- as a segment of British people did make that very choice in 1776.
    Did the British people really make a choice in 1776? Both sides in the civil war where little more than rich landowners fighting over who got the power, the ordinary British person was little more than cannon fodder or a victim.

    The so-called republic put in place afterwards was a tyrany rubber stamped by a parliment made of the rich. Back in the 18th century only the rich and powerful had a vote and parliment did NOT represent the common man, it did not really become a properly democratic institution until the 20th century.

    There is this romantic notion that the English civil war was the god fearing common man fighting the evils of catholic, feudal tyrany. That is utter quite frankly.

  7. #47
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    TheLeft,

    Grumpy old man eh? And here was me thinking that only my wife and daughter thought that. Well, it might surprise you to know that there has in my lifetime always been people who saw life, their life, as an injustice, so no, everything wasn't all rosy but there was a certain decorum and decency that has been lost in society since then.

    If Donald Trump was the PM here this country would like his America be booming right now.

    Compare their lavish service to that of the good ole Labour boys who like Tony Blair are millionaires now. So much for socialism eh?

    Freedom of speech! Have a look around and see how our lefties are taking away that privilege wherever they are in power. Socialism cannot work with freedom of anything the world over and never has been any different.

    I believe that God raised Britain to be the greatest empire the world has ever seen because this nation was for the whole Christian and its downfall came about because the leftie governments we voted for and who were mainly heathen turned this nation from God and still is.

    I've got a Husky leaning all over me wanting his walk so I'm breaking off for now but I will be back to continue.

  8. #48
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    TheLeft,

    I'm back. Knowing God and what He can do and what He expects me to do was never going to be easy as every born again Christian knows, why? Because of the opposition that you and your fellow unbelievers have done and will do to try to kill off Christianity. The good news on that front is that you cannot and will not win. He oversees everything that goes on on this planet and even outside of it and so He raises up nations and depletes others according to His will. Strangely enough at this moment China is going through a faze where Bibles are in great demand. Jesus does encourage helping the most vulnerable and that's why Christians see most of their donations going to help such people.

    The Bible does not condemn the rich any more than it condemns all men for their unbelief. It is the impossiblity that rich people have for sharing or giving up their wealth that Jesus highlights. The papers I read consist of the Daily Mail, the Express, the Sun and sometimes the Record. I do watch the BBC which might surprise you as sometimes we have no alternative for certain programmes but when it comes to news I am completely amazed at its bias considering that its people are for the main lefties who live off our money quite happily.

    Can you honestly say that Gary Linneker is worth the money he is paid? How many times have you thought that you could do his job for half the money he gets? Many people write into the papers saying just that. It is not a case of free market economy because the BBC has been given the power to demand what it wants from viewers who have no choice if they have a TV.

    This country has been up to its eyes and ears in debt thanks to previous Labour governments and the only time that debt has been substantiously reduced is when Tories have been in power. In doing so each one has had to endure continuous badgering by the Left who don't seem to understand that debts have to be paid. Most of that has come by way of the BBC.

    If Corbyn gets in this country will be bankrupt in no time at all.
    Last edited by basics; August 01, 2019 at 04:45 AM.

  9. #49

    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    TheLeft,

    Grumpy old man eh? And here was me thinking that only my wife and daughter thought that. Well, it might surprise you to know that there has in my lifetime always been people who saw life, their life, as an injustice, so no, everything wasn't all rosy but there was a certain decorum and decency that has been lost in society since then.
    Every single person looks back on their youth with rose-tinted specs and without fail they always blame the youth of today for pretty much everything. Just as I'm sure your parent sand grandparents blamed your generation for everything.

    Doesn't make it true though.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    If Donald Trump was the PM here this country would like his America be booming right now.
    You mean the guy who said he'd solve the fantastically complex issues surrounding Brexit by 'suing the EU'?

    Riiiiight...

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Compare their lavish service to that of the good ole Labour boys who like Tony Blair are millionaires now. So much for socialism eh?

    Freedom of speech! Have a look around and see how our lefties are taking away that privilege wherever they are in power. Socialism cannot work with freedom of anything the world over and never has been any different.
    1. You seem to be unable to differentiate between Socialism and Communism. Under a Communist system everything belongs to the state and all forms of capitalism are banned. Whereas capitalism can exist within a socialist system. Are you really saying the to be be a 'good' socialist you must be completely poor and utterly destitute? That's nonsense. The tedious old tabloid trope of 'Champagne Socialist' is, quite frankly, utter bollocks.

    https://keydifferences.com/differenc...socialism.html

    2. We have lots of socialism in the UK that works really well. Ever heard of the NHS? Or free primary or secondary education?

    3. You can what you like, and in fact you are doing so now. The only thing in recent times that is now outlawed is overt and public racism and other forms of bigotry. But as a Christian, that shouldn't concern you. "Love thy Neighbour" and all that...

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    I believe that God raised Britain to be the greatest empire the world has ever seen because this nation was for the whole Christian and its downfall came about because the leftie governments we voted for and who were mainly heathen turned this nation from God and still is.
    Bearing in mind the British Empire fell mainly due to the massive shock of two devastating World Wars in quick succession. How specifically were 'leftie governments' to blame in your view? Also consider the post-war Labour government (that built millions of houses and the NHS) was even considered by conservatives to be one of the best ever.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Knowing God and what He can do and what He expects me to do was never going to be easy as every born again Christian knows, why? Because of the opposition that you and your fellow unbelievers have done and will do to try to kill off Christianity. The good news on that front is that you cannot and will not win. He oversees everything that goes on on this planet and even outside of it and so He raises up nations and depletes others according to His will.
    While I'm not a religious person, I have no problem with Christianity. People can worship whoever and whatever they like. Doesn't make it immune from criticism though.

    So how exactly have I personally tried to kill off Christianity?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Strangely enough at this moment China is going through a faze where Bibles are in great demand. Jesus does encourage helping the most vulnerable and that's why Christians see most of their donations going to help such people.
    And yet they still have proportionally, less Christians than the UK (only 2% in China compared to 59% in the UK). With over 61% in China being Godless Heathens. Perhaps you need to update God on the facts so he can smite these Chinese unbelievers and raise the UK back to Imperial Glory...


    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    The Bible does not condemn the rich any more than it condemns all men for their unbelief. It is the impossibility that rich people have for sharing or giving up their wealth that Jesus highlights.
    Jesus disagrees...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesus
    And Jesus said to His disciples, "Truly I say to you, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    The papers I read consist of the Daily Mail, the Express, the Sun and sometimes the Record. I do watch the BBC which might surprise you as sometimes we have no alternative for certain programmes but when it comes to news I am completely amazed at its bias considering that its people are for the main lefties who live off our money quite happily.


    Can you honestly say that Gary Linneker is worth the money he is paid? How many times have you thought that you could do his job for half the money he gets? Many people write into the papers saying just that. It is not a case of free market economy because the BBC has been given the power to demand what it wants from viewers who have no choice if they have a TV.
    You only pay the licence fee if you want to watch terrestrial TV like BBC or ITV. If you watch Netflix, Amazon Prime, YouTube or another subscription based service you don't need a TV licence. You are welcome to stop paying your Licence fee at anytime...

    Should those that work for the BBC work for free in your view? The presenters are paid according to market rates, as is everyone in a capitalist economy. Should the BBC get rid of Lineker, then Sky, BT or another station would still pay him similar wages to do the same job. It's called free market economics. Just because a few simpletons write frothing, ill-informed letters to the Daily Mail, it doesn't make them correct.


    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    This country has been up to its eyes and ears in debt thanks to previous Labour governments and the only time that debt has been substantiously reduced is when Tories have been in power. In doing so each one has had to endure continuous badgering by the Left who don't seem to understand that debts have to be paid. Most of that has come by way of the BBC.
    I need a laugh. Please explain to me how the 2008 Global Financial Crisis was the fault of the UK Labour Party. This should be fun...


    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    If Corbyn gets in this country will be bankrupt in no time at all.
    So the poorest and most vulnerable can take a running jump so long as you're OK? How very Christian of you...
    Last edited by TheLeft; August 01, 2019 at 12:13 PM. Reason: spelling

  10. #50

    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    I think Left and Basics show why the monarchy is so inportant. It's a unifying factor, independent of religion or politics that gives the nation something to be proud of and consider ours.

  11. #51
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    Cyclops,

    I too apparently am of Irish descent, our DNA going back to some guy called Niall of the Nine Hostages. My father used to kid us on that we were kicked out of Ireland because we were sheep stealers. I was born in Bellshill Scotland in 1943 and my dad born in Glasgow in 1899 so any Irish connection is well in the past. For all its nationalism I believe that nationalist Ireland provided more volunteers to fight the Germans in both wars and even after than any other part of Britain per head of population. They don't all hate us.

    Yes, the Queen in trying to stay aloof can we say on Dianne's death hurt the nation for a while but in the end she stood up and did her duty. Of course she will never satisfy everyone but history will show what a great Queen she was when she is gone.

  12. #52

    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Cyclops,

    I too apparently am of Irish descent, our DNA going back to some guy called Niall of the Nine Hostages. My father used to kid us on that we were kicked out of Ireland because we were sheep stealers. I was born in Bellshill Scotland in 1943 and my dad born in Glasgow in 1899 so any Irish connection is well in the past. For all its nationalism I believe that nationalist Ireland provided more volunteers to fight the Germans in both wars and even after than any other part of Britain per head of population. They don't all hate us.

    Yes, the Queen in trying to stay aloof can we say on Dianne's death hurt the nation for a while but in the end she stood up and did her duty. Of course she will never satisfy everyone but history will show what a great Queen she was when she is gone.
    As an aside, the UVF and Republican volunteer battalions fought side by side in France as part of the Irish division.

  13. #53
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    TheLeft,

    The thing is that you haven't explained what socialism is supposed to do for everyone. Just suppose every person was given x amount of money and one blew the lot whilst another saved his or hers, one would be rich whilst the other poor enough to gripe about his or her position because that seems to be the nature of people. As long as people have different attitudes to handling their finances there will always be envy. So, to stop that does one put the moaner, the waster into a gulag as seems to be the pattern in socialist countries?

    So, the thing is market rates are OK and yet our Queen generates more for this country than anyone on the BBC but they're OK but she is not?

    When Jesus said it would be hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God using the eye of a needle and camel as an example, He did not say that a rich man would never get in. Put into perspective and see the number of men accounted righteous in God's eyes and find Job, David, Solomon, Abraham etc. who were very rich.

    I happen to be an invalid who relies on State benefits to keep us afloat so please don't try to lecture me on poverty or vulnerability. I know what its like to lose a business and home working all hours to support my wife and son wherever I could until my body couldn't take it anymore. The thing that kept us going was our faith that God would see us through it and so far He has. My car is nearly fifteen years old and I wouldn't have it were it not for my son contributing towards it. Would I like a new one? Of course I would but that's not likely to happen. Oh by the way I don't have a mobile phone, the computer's my daughters and we don't have SKY TV as many of those socialists around us have. I know that I am not the best Christian in the world but I try.

  14. #54

    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    TheLeft,

    The thing is that you haven't explained what socialism is supposed to do for everyone.
    That's literally the point. Everyone. Whereas conservatism is about benefiting the individual, Socialism is about benefiting the society as a whole. If you need an example close to home, then Norway is a good example of how Democratic Socialism can benefit a society as a whole. Norway has some of the highest living standards on earth, best education, low poverty, higher wages and low crime. The pay off, however, is higher taxes.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Just suppose every person was given x amount of money and one blew the lot whilst another saved his or hers, one would be rich whilst the other poor enough to gripe about his or her position because that seems to be the nature of people. As long as people have different attitudes to handling their finances there will always be envy. So, to stop that does one put the moaner, the waster into a gulag as seems to be the pattern in socialist countries?
    Again, you are conflating socialism and communism. Gulags are a product of communism not democratic socialism. The key word here is democratic.

    People will always manage their finances differently and yes, jealousy will always be a factor in anything, however the crux is giving people a fair chance and to make sure that society's most vulnerable are looked after properly. American-style turbo capitalism doesn't do that.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    So, the thing is market rates are OK and yet our Queen generates more for this country than anyone on the BBC but they're OK but she is not?
    Like I said I have no personal gripe against the Queen. I think the difference here is the fact that is there is no 'market rate' for Queen or Head of State. I have no problem with the state funding the Monarch, but it's the rest of the family that I personally object to. In May 2016 Denmark announced plans to reduce royal funding by cutting out all minor royals. The UK needs to do the same. It is a scandal that the Queen allows her family to profit from their relationship with her, to the tune of millions of pounds. I wonder, why are we spending millions of pounds on Katherine Worsley (the Duchess of Kent) or Marie von Reibnitz (Princess Michael of Kent) when public services and disabled benefits are being squeezed and cut?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    When Jesus said it would be hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God using the eye of a needle and camel as an example, He did not say that a rich man would never get in. Put into perspective and see the number of men accounted righteous in God's eyes and find Job, David, Solomon, Abraham etc. who were very rich.
    I think it's fairly clear that Jesus thought that being rich was a bad thing for a Christian.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    I happen to be an invalid who relies on State benefits to keep us afloat so please don't try to lecture me on poverty or vulnerability. I know what its like to lose a business and home working all hours to support my wife and son wherever I could until my body couldn't take it anymore. The thing that kept us going was our faith that God would see us through it and so far He has. My car is nearly fifteen years old and I wouldn't have it were it not for my son contributing towards it. Would I like a new one? Of course I would but that's not likely to happen. Oh by the way I don't have a mobile phone, the computer's my daughters and we don't have SKY TV as many of those socialists around us have. I know that I am not the best Christian in the world but I try.
    I'm not trying to lecture anyone. I'm merely answering your questions and trying to provide an alternate viewpoint.

    However, I do wonder why you would vote Conservative when it clearly doesn't benefit you to do so. With the ever increasing polarisation and tribalism of politics, I think sometimes people forget that political parties are not like a football team, you can change your mind and support the other team if it benefits you to do so.

  15. #55
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    TheLeft,

    I was brought up in a Conservative household and so followed the lead my dad took. He was my hero. That said I have voted Labour for Tony Blair to get in and voted twice for the SNP. Experience brought me back to my roots. The benefits I receive are the very bottom of the scale and believe me we are so grateful for that. I would much rather be out there working as I did before but I'm afraid that is all past me now. Working myself up in every job I did and they included sheet metal works, paper conversion, toy wholesaling, jewellery manufacturing, toy shops and finally laundry and dry cleaning businesses, I became the manager of each one, the one we lost we owned. Doing these things I learned that business brought jobs not the state or anything else. Every state business in Britain doesn't pay, the NHS being a prime example, the intentions being fair but the management poor, why? Because It appears to me that few if any know that unless they get to grips with its finances taxes must go up to keep it afloat. Small business, which is the backbone of any economy, in our country is overburdened with taxes and regulations and that's why we see empty shops and businesses all over the place. Socialism doesn't seem to understand that the lower the taxes the more the government takes in because people and business have money to spend spreading benefits for all.

  16. #56
    the Black Prince's Avatar British Patriot
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    The state doesn't provide much in the way of funding for the Monarchy in the UK, any of them...

    The Queen and various others have their own private incomes, and the Queen and Prince Charles also have the incomes from the Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall, which are little different to the incomes from say, the Duchy of Westminster other than being paid to members of the Royal Family.

    There's the income from the Crown Estate, but that only funds the public duties carried out by members of the Royal Family, not for private use. It also covers the maintenance and running costs of the state owned Royal Palaces. The royal estates owned by the Queen as an individual, such as Balmoral, are funded from her own income. The Crown Estate income isn't taxpayer money anyway, although its controlled by Parliament.

    The only part of the monarchy the taxpayer really pays for is the security, via the Home Office grants to the various police forces involved. As with any security operation, the protectee has little control over the scale of the operation designed to protect, though it's certainly less than that used to cover many other heads of state.

    To the OP, I'd say yes, the Crown and Britain are interlinked. I don't think we'll see a republic any time soon, even if Charles takes the throne. Even if Scotland becomes independent there's a strong faction within the independence movement that want to see Elizabeth retained as Elizabeth I, Queen of Scots.

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Cyclops,

    I too apparently am of Irish descent, our DNA going back to some guy called Niall of the Nine Hostages. My father used to kid us on that we were kicked out of Ireland because we were sheep stealers. I was born in Bellshill Scotland in 1943 and my dad born in Glasgow in 1899 so any Irish connection is well in the past. For all its nationalism I believe that nationalist Ireland provided more volunteers to fight the Germans in both wars and even after than any other part of Britain per head of population. They don't all hate us.
    Rudyard Kipling had astory about that, "Timlay Doolah" where a half-irish half Nepalese farmer causes trouble for an Indian prince and the narrator advises him "make him a soldier, but never let him have land". I recall a statistic for the British Army in the 18th and 19th centuries that more than 40% the manpower was Irish, and only 15% or so was Scots (i had thought the Scots were a bigger proportion). It was a cash job in a poor economy.

    Its interesting to study a bit of family history, you turn up so many fascinating details. My Irish ancestors kept converting this way and that, for money, for love, and (in one case ) I suspect for the craic. One grandfather supposedly converted on his death bed because it was midnight at the hospital and the catholic chaplain was the only person to talk to.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Yes, the Queen in trying to stay aloof can we say on Dianne's death hurt the nation for a while but in the end she stood up and did her duty. Of course she will never satisfy everyone but history will show what a great Queen she was when she is gone.
    The Queen was treated atrociously, she's bound by protocol as as Diana was divorced the palace was not allowed to fly flags at half mast for her. The newspapers span that as "the Queen hates Diana" the scum, you really cannot trust journalists.

    Elizabeth II and I (she's only the first Elizabeth of Scotland of course) should be remembered as the best monarch England and Britain ever had. With very little power and her hands tied by rules and precedents she has done a lot of good.

    She serves her family interests of course, but those are served by being a good monarch.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  18. #58
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    TheLeft,

    About the NHS, something that comes to mind, is that when Tony Blair handed all the health centres over to the doctors look at what happened. The good ole docs gave themselves a massive pay rise and cut their hours of work so that it takes longer to see a doctor, in our centre up to two weeks. In some cases to alleviate that they bring in consultants from even outside Britain and pay them enormous amounts for the privilege. So what started as a great thing has become an insatiable monster catering to the staff rather than the patient. In the good ole days young lads and mostly lasses could go into nursing straight from school learning the job on the wards each day under the sister and matron hierarchy, but not now as nurses have to have academic qualifications to get there with the motto of " that's not my job. See someone else," as I have experienced many times when in hospital. So unless a young lass has a Higher in something she cannot get into the job and that's how ridiculous things have become.

    I remember after one hernia op I asked for transport home and this after being given instructions about attempting to lift heavy weights and the nurse said that it wasn't her job so I would need a doctor to arrange it for me. I ended up having to carry my case down to the local bus stop where fortunately an off service bus stopped and picked me up off the driver's own bat and took me home. On another occasion my toenails were giving me problems so I asked if someone would trim them back and you guessed it not one nurse would do it. These were all jobs that nurses had no bother doing in the past but apparently not now indeed I have found that the older the nurse the better the service is. Why is that?

  19. #59
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Did the British people really make a choice in 1776? Both sides in the civil war where little more than rich landowners fighting over who got the power, the ordinary British person was little more than cannon fodder or a victim.
    Yes and no. The movement for independence, though driven by landowners and educated lawyers, was a popular one. But that's besides the point, which is that the British people have chosen to retain the monarchy as an institution for a reason, because it clearly means something to them and their identity.

  20. #60
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    Under devolution we see that Scotland being run by the SNP is the classic failure that would bring this country to its knees were it ever to be separated from the UK. The Scottish economy has a huge black hole and the superstructure is going to the dogs. Our roads are in a dreadful mess. Our portion of the NHS is a disaster. Our schools are failing its pupils. The police are struggling not only in manpower but finance as well. The Law is being diluted. Our so-called Parliament costs a fortune and is rising There is very little new investment in the place. Everything is blamed on Westminster and I mean everything. I notice that there is now a small groundswell for devolution to be closed down by Scots who are at their wits end by what is going on and I agree with them.

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