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Thread: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

  1. #1
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    I was considering for years about this issue. For me, when I think of "English" or even "British" I think of a person that is either pro-monarchy or neutral. Personally I am not British and I am not pro-monarchy in my country but I don't mind it in other countries.
    However, I think that for the English at least and the British at large, respecting the king\queen, having their portraits on coins, fanatically watching their (boring) weddings, getting in arguments about to how the grandson of the reigning monarch would name his 3rd child that will never inherit the throne etc are a deep part of what makes a British person "British", like tea breaks.

    In effect I consider the significantly pro-monarchy Australia, where more people identify as "English" than as "Australians" or New Zealand, or pro-monarchy Canada "quite" British, not only because they speak English (USA speak that too) but also because of their stance on Monarchy.

    What do people think? Is the Monarchy in UK part of the identity of the nation? Not if you're pro-Republic or not, if you think that Monarchy in UK is part of their national identity.
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    No. If anything, it's actually utterly foreign to Anglo-Saxon civilization, which prizes liberty and self-government. The Anglo-Saxons sought to free themselves from the chains of tyranny for centuries, and this struggle culminated in the American Revolution, which got rid of the Normans and their weird personality cults once and for all. Sadly in Britain they're still in chains, but it's not as bad as before the Glorious Revolution.
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    What are you talking about?



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    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    Well, actually the English people was the first people in the history of Europe to imprison on charges of treason, prosecute and behead their king (who actually was a honourable, good man), creating an infamous precedent that would have had fatal results in France at the end of the following century. So, about the relation between English people and Monarchy, we might say with Catullus: "Odi et amo. Quare id faciam, fortasse requiris. Nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior."
    ('I hate and I love. Why would I do this, maybe you're asking? I don't know, but I feel it happening and am tortured.')

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    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    It’s not inherent, but yes it’s a part of the identity. If we wanted we could become a republic but we choose not to.
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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    It probably won't be a surprise to anyone for me to say that I am Scottish by birth and proud to be British as well as Christian. If one looks at the numbers of people from across the world who make Buckingham Palace their first point of destination when they get here one can deduce the appeal of our Royal Family is not just a British thing. In financial terms the monies we spend on it are far outweighed by the revenue they bring in to the country. Don't get me wrong however because there are plenty of left wing lunies who would gladly see the back ot them and why I'll never understand because I suspect that in every country that does not have royalty the men or women who run these places wish personally they were kings or queens. Our Queen being non political has that magnetism where she doesn't need anything other than herself and her position to be popular and advantateous for our country and its history and world leaders are over the moon if they get to meet her.

    So, what would Britain become if it didn't have a Royal Family? Personally I believe we would become another run of the mill failed socialist nation whose history would quickly be forgotten given that we once ruled over much of the earth more beneficially than anything else. Thankfully there are enough people in our country who as yet don't want to see the back of our royalty because if we do that it would be the end of what holds us together as one United Kingdom and would probably also kill off the last vestiges of our faith in the God who has sustained us.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    It probably won't be a surprise to anyone for me to say that I am Scottish by birth and proud to be British as well as Christian. If one looks at the numbers of people from across the world who make Buckingham Palace their first point of destination when they get here
    What an odd ideal... Last time I got into London my fist stop was a pub any pub SE Idaho is dreadfully short of anything qualifying as a pub. Then onto the British Museum.
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    No. If anything, it's actually utterly foreign to Anglo-Saxon civilization, which prizes liberty and self-government. The Anglo-Saxons sought to free themselves from the chains of tyranny for centuries, and this struggle culminated in the American Revolution, which got rid of the Normans and their weird personality cults once and for all. Sadly in Britain they're still in chains, but it's not as bad as before the Glorious Revolution.
    What a load of crap. The only English monarch to be granted the title of "great" was an Anglo Saxon, Alfred the Great. Also it's got to be the most moronic statement to claim the American revolution got rid of the Normans as the monarchy of the time was from bloody Germany! Hanover to be precise.

    The English civil war was a failure as the republic was deeply unpopular and replaced by a restored monarchy.

    The truth is, the English have always had a deep respect and love for monarchy but we have balanced it out by law and tradition that started back with the magna carta. It is part of our culture, identity and traditions.

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    conon394,

    The pub then the Museum eh? Never mind for at least we can admit to the great affinity that both the Uk on the whole has with the USA as a whole. After all doesn't Donald the Great have Scottish blood running through his veins just as the Queen does?
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; July 21, 2019 at 07:24 AM. Reason: Proselytism.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    currently, i would say its a big part. but it can exist without it too of course. it wouldnt be much different from other countries which went from monarchy to republic, like france, germany or turkey. they all still love their old monarchs, because they represent the nation.

    edit: people emphasise different things in their natipns histoy, and will look faborably on whatver form of government ruled durong that great time. for that reason turks and french are proud of sultans and napoleon, even though they are republics today. other times they might more appriciate the french revolutions and ataturk. but for brits, 99% of their history is as a monarchy, so whatever in their history they want to be proud of, there was a monarchy. so of course they like the monarchy.
    Last edited by NosPortatArma; July 20, 2019 at 04:18 AM.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    No. If anything, it's actually utterly foreign to Anglo-Saxon civilization, which prizes liberty and self-government. The Anglo-Saxons sought to free themselves from the chains of tyranny for centuries, and this struggle culminated in the American Revolution, which got rid of the Normans and their weird personality cults once and for all. Sadly in Britain they're still in chains, but it's not as bad as before the Glorious Revolution.
    Uhhh, unless this is some sort of ironic post, rifleman is right, and you've gone off the deep end.
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; July 21, 2019 at 07:23 AM. Reason: Continuity.

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    hellheaven1987's Avatar Comes Domesticorum
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    In effect I consider the significantly pro-monarchy Australia, where more people identify as "English" than as "Australians" or New Zealand
    Australians without British monarchy is just like Arabs without Islam - literally culturaless. At least Americans got their REVOLUTION and civil war, what Australians got that is world-famous? Emu War, Jesus man.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    or pro-monarchy Canada "quite" British, not only because they speak English (USA speak that too) but also because of their stance on Monarchy.
    Bloody hell without monarchy how can Canadians boast their glorious victory in 1812 and distinct themselves from the savages that came from cultural desert on their southern border?
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    One notable aspect of the English and our monarchy. We are loyal to the crown, not always who is wearing it. Our history has put limits on the monarchy and even replaced dynasties when required, ours is not a system of personality cults but of what the monarchy represents and embodies.

    We always use terms like crown and soverreighn in official and military use.

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    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    Quote Originally Posted by NosPortatArma View Post
    currently, i would say its a big part. but it can exist without it too of course.
    [...]
    but for brits, 99% of their history is as a monarchy, so whatever in their history they want to be proud of, there was a monarchy. so of course they like the monarchy.
    Interesting approach. I am not sure I 100% agree, but it is food for thought.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    Personally I'd disagree that the monarchy is an inherent part of the British identity.I'm a born and bred Londoner and I personally could not give a damn about the Monarchy, the Queen or the Royal Family and I don't know anyone that really does. They are an archaic, medieval institution that is only really still there because of tourism. As John Lydon so famously said:

    Quote Originally Posted by John Lydon
    God Save The Queen... 'cause tourists are money!
    I don't wish them any ill will. I certainly don't bear any personal grudge against them, I just see them as old, outdated and utterly unsuited for 21st Century Britain. If we didn't have so many fat Americans coming over to London in the vain hope of seeing the Queen at Buckingham Palace, I'd say to get rid of the Monarchy altogether. Once QE2 dies, I fear for the institutions' future because Charles is an idiot and the best reason why cousins should never marry.

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    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    Personally I'd disagree that the monarchy is an inherent part of the British identity.I'm a born and bred Londoner and I personally could not give a damn about the Monarchy,.
    A subjective opinion, isn't it? I'm a republican (in an European sense: socialist,republican and secular). You know your country better than I do, or even better than any of us, but it seems to me that there are many Brits who love the Royal family and the monarchy; the UK is very conservative. Obviously,in comparison to America, the people is more liberal in a social, political and economic sense.
    Who are the monarchists? | YouGov
    Seven in ten Britons support Britain continuing to have a monarchy
    ------
    Quote Originally Posted by Diocle View Post
    So, about the relation between English people and Monarchy, we might say with Catullus: "Odi et amo. Quare id faciam, fortasse requiris. Nescio, sed fieri sentio et excrucior."

    Only if the UK is the wife of Trump, the most eloquent man in the world, the Quintus Caecilius of the modern times.
    Last edited by Ludicus; July 23, 2019 at 11:47 AM. Reason: typo error
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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    The thing about us Brits is that we love pomp and circumstance and we get that in great measure from our Royal family. Take the Garter ceremony for example and see how two foreign Monarchs came with their spouses to take part in it. I don't think there was a publication that didn't want pictures of that for there's no doubt they sell, why? Because our Royal family are to us what Hollywood is to America without all the whining and hypocracy.

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    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    The UK is a country of traditions: the monarchy, the "Isle",not Europe, the White's club founded in 1693, still there and alive, the tea breaks, horse racings, the nostalgia for the old Imperial empire,psychologically implicit in British exceptionalism and the Brexit. As the Collins English Dictionary tells us (one wonders where that leaves Ireland),
    2. Brit the continent of Europe except for the British Isles: we're going to Europe for our holiday.
    3. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) Brit the European Union: when did Britain go into Europe?.
    In a familiar usage, they say "The Left's off to Europe"; "Basics's back from Europe". ( j/k) . Let's face the facts, the UK has always been a partner of Europe without being a full participant in it.

    From a nostalgic/patriotic speech "1000 years of History", by Hugh Gaitskell, Leader of the Labour Party, 1962, Speech by Hugh Gaitskell against UK membership of the ... - CVCE
    I come to the second condition:we would be free to plan our economy...There was thirdly, agriculture...Fourth, there is foreign policy, the right to maintain as at present our own independent foreign policy....Then there is the Commonwealth...I am the last person in the world to belittle what we might call the old Commonwealth...We, at least, do not intend to forget Vimy Ridge and Gallipoli...Trade – not aid...Then there are the proposed associated overseas territories, the African and Caribbean countries...For in this very hall the Secretary of State for Commonwealth Relations a year ago, said this:‘We have promised our partners in the Commonwealth that we shall not join the European Community unless we can make arrangements to safeguard their vital trading interests...

    ...The young are idealists; they want change; we know that. We welcome it, and I have no desire to belittle this. But if I were a little younger today, and if I were looking around for a cause, I do not think I should be quite so certain that I would find it within the movement for greater unity in Europe. I think I would find it outside in the world at large...
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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    Ludicus,

    Britain went into what was then a trading arrangement with Europe never anticipating it to want to be a super state as is now the case. Apart from wanting our money and our markets they were never prepared to accept us or be influenced by us in any way. To say we are European by geography are only words that have no real meaning. For centuries we have sent armies into it to clear up certain messes it has go itself into and even now on the verge of financial collapse it doesn't want to lose us not because they love us but for financial reasons. They need us more than we need them.

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    Aexodus's Avatar Persuasion>Coercion
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    Default Re: Is Monarchy inherently a part of British \ English identity?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    The UK is a country of traditions: the monarchy, the "Isle",not Europe, the White's club founded in 1693, still there and alive, the tea breaks, horse racings, the nostalgia for the old Imperial empire,psychologically implicit in British exceptionalism and the Brexit. As the Collins English Dictionary tells us (one wonders where that leaves Ireland),

    In a familiar usage, they say "The Left's off to Europe"; "Basics's back from Europe". ( j/k) . Let's face the facts, the UK has always been a partner of Europe without being a full participant in it.

    From a nostalgic/patriotic speech "1000 years of History", by Hugh Gaitskell, Leader of the Labour Party, 1962, Speech by Hugh Gaitskell against UK membership of the ... - CVCE
    Uh, I’m not sure I understand your post maybe you could re-phrase? Do you mean the monarchy makes us part of the EU?
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