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Thread: Portland: Journalist injured during riot between Antifa and Proud Boys.

  1. #321

    Default Re: Portland: Journalist injured during riot between Antifa and Proud Boys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kritias View Post
    Hammer, the US as a government, the state apparatus and its armed forces have certain policies they enforce.

    The citizens of the US have by large no word on the policies, they only vote on candidates depending the available information or lack of at any election.

    The movements created by citizens have categorically no connection to the state's foreign policies. I do not understand the connection you see there.

    Mongrel, reading your post I am not sure whether you are supporting heathens argument or mine. I read it again but no luck.

    What do you mean by that?
    The fact that in the last several decades, liberalism caused more deaths and human rights violations then any other ideology, and definitely more then all extreme ones put together. Fair to say, Iraq war alone did that, especially if we include conflicts that resulted directly from it, such as rise of ISIS. So from that perspective it is quite clear that "hollier then thou" attitude that liberals have in regards to people who politically disagree with them is quite unsubstantiated. Needless to say, Bush got re-elected after invading Iraq and Obama got re-elected after he butchered Libya and tried doing same thing in Syria.

  2. #322

    Default Re: Portland: Journalist injured during riot between Antifa and Proud Boys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    The fact that in the last several decades, liberalism caused more deaths and human rights violations then any other ideology, and definitely more then all extreme ones put together. Fair to say, Iraq war alone did that, especially if we include conflicts that resulted directly from it, such as rise of ISIS. So from that perspective it is quite clear that "hollier then thou" attitude that liberals have in regards to people who politically disagree with them is quite unsubstantiated. Needless to say, Bush got re-elected after invading Iraq and Obama got re-elected after he butchered Libya and tried doing same thing in Syria.
    Liberalism had nothing to do with the Iraq War, or any similar wars for that matter. It's ridiculous to remotely suggest that. Yet, it's a testament to how logic and reason are whored around.
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  3. #323

    Default Re: Portland: Journalist injured during riot between Antifa and Proud Boys.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Liberalism had nothing to do with the Iraq War, or any similar wars for that matter. It's ridiculous to remotely suggest that. Yet, it's a testament to how logic and reason are whored around.
    Neocon ideology directly stems from liberalism. You should really look up, you know, background information, before you jump into a debate without knowledge and make such an embarrassing post.

  4. #324

    Default Re: Portland: Journalist injured during riot between Antifa and Proud Boys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Neocon ideology directly stems from liberalism. You should really look up, you know, background information, before you jump into a debate without knowledge and make such an embarrassing post.
    No, it doesn't stem from that. It's just an other case of whoring around simple concepts. In no shape or form though, what you suggest, has any relation to liberalism somehow causing multiple wars. It's simply a crusade of some people to stupefy any and all intelligent thought in order to normalize one's own bigoted and ignorant ideals.
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  5. #325

    Default Re: Portland: Journalist injured during riot between Antifa and Proud Boys.

    Imagine actually believing that the dominant ideology in the US for at least 50 years has nothing to do with its foreign policy decisions.

  6. #326

    Default Re: Portland: Journalist injured during riot between Antifa and Proud Boys.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    No, it doesn't stem from that. It's just an other case of whoring around simple concepts. In no shape or form though, what you suggest, has any relation to liberalism somehow causing multiple wars. It's simply a crusade of some people to stupefy any and all intelligent thought in order to normalize one's own bigoted and ignorant ideals.
    Liberals not knowing their ideology chapter 600. ''Neoconservativism'' refers to liberal intellectuals that became disenchanted with the Left in the 60-70 because of its pacifist preference and focus on cultural issues. Notable examples include Irving Kristol and Kirkpatrick and more recently Robert Kagan and Max Boot. Kagan notoriously clarified that Neocon is simply another term for liberal interventionist, thus clearly at odds with the no war Left. The peak of the latter and the death of it can be indeed considered the Obama presidency, which openly campaigned on no-war issues and was completely hijacked by the return to the Left of Neocons (see Nuland) by the end of the second term. The rise of Donald Trump closed the circle for many, and indeed William Kristol just like Max Boot have both returned to the liberal field.

  7. #327

    Default Re: Portland: Journalist injured during riot between Antifa and Proud Boys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    The fact that in the last several decades, liberalism caused more deaths and human rights violations then any other ideology, and definitely more then all extreme ones put together. Fair to say, Iraq war alone did that, especially if we include conflicts that resulted directly from it, such as rise of ISIS. So from that perspective it is quite clear that "hollier then thou" attitude that liberals have in regards to people who politically disagree with them is quite unsubstantiated. Needless to say, Bush got re-elected after invading Iraq and Obama got re-elected after he butchered Libya and tried doing same thing in Syria.
    Revionist bollocks. It's as nothing compared to the death and destruction inflicted in WW2 and the genocide inflicted by fascists and Soviet purges.
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  8. #328

    Default Re: Portland: Journalist injured during riot between Antifa and Proud Boys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Basil II the B.S View Post
    Liberals not knowing their ideology chapter 600. ''Neoconservativism'' refers to liberal intellectuals that became disenchanted with the Left in the 60-70 because of its pacifist preference and focus on cultural issues. Notable examples include Irving Kristol and Kirkpatrick and more recently Robert Kagan and Max Boot. Kagan notoriously clarified that Neocon is simply another term for liberal interventionist, thus clearly at odds with the no war Left. The peak of the latter and the death of it can be indeed considered the Obama presidency, which openly campaigned on no-war issues and was completely hijacked by the return to the Left of Neocons (see Nuland) by the end of the second term. The rise of Donald Trump closed the circle for many, and indeed William Kristol just like Max Boot have both returned to the liberal field.
    As I said, it's just an other case of whoring around simple concepts. It's also perhaps one of the most ignorant takes on this whole debacle as it tries to condense an ideology governing numerous issues into a single one of war. Hence, your attempt to tie multiple wars to a political ideology that has nothing to do with them is at best a laughable matter.
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  9. #329

    Default Re: Portland: Journalist injured during riot between Antifa and Proud Boys.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Imagine actually believing that the dominant ideology in the US for at least 50 years has nothing to do with its foreign policy decisions.
    Do you enjoy preying on the confusion of the dual meaning of the word "liberal" in the US?

    I am genuinely curious, if you think Liberalism at large is bad, what type of government do you actually like? Some type of Authoritarianism?
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  10. #330

    Default Re: Portland: Journalist injured during riot between Antifa and Proud Boys.

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    Do you enjoy preying on the confusion of the dual meaning of the word "liberal" in the US?

    I am genuinely curious, if you think Liberalism at large is bad, what type of government do you actually like? Some type of Authoritarianism?
    I didn't say that "Liberalism at large is bad". I just don't have much patience with people who blindly deny its association with a variety of failed foreign policy initiatives over recent decades.
    Last edited by ep1c_fail; July 25, 2019 at 02:53 AM.

  11. #331
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    Default Re: Portland: Journalist injured during riot between Antifa and Proud Boys.

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    Do you enjoy preying on the confusion of the dual meaning of the word "liberal" in the US?

    I am genuinely curious, if you think Liberalism at large is bad, what type of government do you actually like? Some type of Authoritarianism?
    What he’s saying is that in practice both most Democrats and Republicans are capital L Liberals.
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  12. #332

    Default Re: Portland: Journalist injured during riot between Antifa and Proud Boys.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    No, it doesn't stem from that. It's just an other case of whoring around simple concepts. In no shape or form though, what you suggest, has any relation to liberalism somehow causing multiple wars. It's simply a crusade of some people to stupefy any and all intelligent thought in order to normalize one's own bigoted and ignorant ideals.
    Neoconservatism is a political movement born in the United States during the 1960s among liberal hawks who became disenchanted with the increasingly pacifist foreign policy of the Democratic Party, and the growing New Left and counterculture, in particular the Vietnam protests.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism
    Not to mention that neoliberals also supported Iraq war, including last candidates for Democratic Party as well as the main contender for Democrat nomination in 2020 elections. Blatantly ignoring facts and pretending that facts are a conspiracy to promote "bigoted ideals" of having factually correct understanding of influence of liberalism takes some serious naivety. Or bias.

  13. #333

    Default Re: Portland: Journalist injured during riot between Antifa and Proud Boys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    Neoconservatism is a political movement born in the United States during the 1960s among liberal hawks who became disenchanted with the increasingly pacifist foreign policy of the Democratic Party, and the growing New Left and counterculture, in particular the Vietnam protests.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NeoconservatismNot to mention that neoliberals also supported Iraq war, including last candidates for Democratic Party as well as the main contender for Democrat nomination in 2020 elections. Blatantly ignoring facts and pretending that facts are a conspiracy to promote "bigoted ideals" of having factually correct understanding of influence of liberalism takes some serious naivety. Or bias.
    You're certainly not exhibiting that understanding in these copy pasted arguments that don't even address what I said. You're simply banking on name associations while ignoring scope of those very same labels. It makes as much sense as saying that men in tailored suits are responsible for those particular wars. It's nothing but an ignorant stance. There is a reason why your position can't go beyond making vague suggestions that does nothing to connect liberalism with those wars. Nothing whatsoever. You need to try harder.
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  14. #334

    Default Re: Portland: Journalist injured during riot between Antifa and Proud Boys.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You're certainly not exhibiting that understanding in these copy pasted arguments that don't even address what I said. You're simply banking on name associations while ignoring scope of those very same labels. It makes as much sense as saying that men in tailored suits are responsible for those particular wars. It's nothing but an ignorant stance. There is a reason why your position can't go beyond making vague suggestions that does nothing to connect liberalism with those wars. Nothing whatsoever. You need to try harder.
    You said neoconservatism doesn't stem from liberalism, while this is part of conventional definition of what neoconservatism is. So yes, US foreign policy is defined by US ideology, which for the last 3 decades was defined by neoliberalism and neoconservatism, both stemming from liberalism. I proved my point. You are just upset that it was quite clearly pointed out that from "ideology responsible for violence done in its name" perspective liberalism is far worse then any "extreme" ideology.

  15. #335

    Default Re: Portland: Journalist injured during riot between Antifa and Proud Boys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    You said neoconservatism doesn't stem from liberalism, while this is part of conventional definition of what neoconservatism is. So yes, US foreign policy is defined by US ideology, which for the last 3 decades was defined by neoliberalism and neoconservatism, both stemming from liberalism. I proved my point. You are just upset that it was quite clearly pointed out that from "ideology responsible for violence done in its name" perspective liberalism is far worse then any "extreme" ideology.
    Did you hear that? The sound of logic and reason flying past you? No, neocon ideology does not stem from liberalism. It's utterly stupid to suggest that. You didn't prove it at all. Your inability to make an argument based on ideological points instead of name association is telling enough.
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  16. #336

    Default Re: Portland: Journalist injured during riot between Antifa and Proud Boys.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Did you hear that? The sound of logic and reason flying past you? No, neocon ideology does not stem from liberalism. It's utterly stupid to suggest that. You didn't prove it at all. Your inability to make an argument based on ideological points instead of name association is telling enough.
    What you are saying is just your opinion, which contradicts conventional definition of the term, which was cited by me in the post you quoted earlier. You are not doing your side any favors by blatantly denying facts and then hypocritically accusing me of ignoring facts and logic, while you are arguing against conventional definitions of terms you are using.

  17. #337
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    Default Re: Portland: Journalist injured during riot between Antifa and Proud Boys.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Did you hear that? The sound of logic and reason flying past you? No, neocon ideology does not stem from liberalism. It's utterly stupid to suggest that. You didn't prove it at all. Your inability to make an argument based on ideological points instead of name association is telling enough.
    In the interest of concluding this tangent discussion, who were the original Neocons if not liberals?
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  18. #338

    Default Re: Portland: Journalist injured during riot between Antifa and Proud Boys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    What you are saying is just your opinion, which contradicts conventional definition of the term, which was cited by me in the post you quoted earlier. You are not doing your side any favors by blatantly denying facts and then hypocritically accusing me of ignoring facts and logic, while you are arguing against conventional definitions of terms you are using.
    What I'm saying is simple logic and reason. You're trying to make it mean more than it is out of convenience which is in itself lazy argumentation. I'm sure some people love it but I don't really care how you feel about it. You're not presenting any facts. You're trying to distort it in an extremely intellectually dishonest argumentation. I'm not arguing against the conventional definition. I'm telling it's not what you make it out to be. In fact, you're not even using the definition of the word. You're using the most lazy source you could possibly use; except the links that simply copy paste from that.

    The real definition is this:
    neoconservative
    noun

    neo·​con·​ser·​va·​tive | \ ˌnē-ō-kən-ˈsər-və-tiv
    Definition of neoconservative
    1: a former liberal espousing political conservatism
    2: a conservative who advocates the assertive promotion of democracy and U.S. national interest in international affairs including through military means
    The term liberal or liberalism is not used the same way you do. You need to try harder to degenerate intelligence.


    Quote Originally Posted by Aexodus View Post
    In the interest of concluding this tangent discussion, who were the original Neocons if not liberals?
    Why does that even slightly matter? We're talking about ideologies, not people.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; July 27, 2019 at 02:05 PM.
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  19. #339

    Default Re: Portland: Journalist injured during riot between Antifa and Proud Boys.


    Hoisted with your own petard
    Last edited by ep1c_fail; July 27, 2019 at 02:30 PM.

  20. #340

    Default Re: Portland: Journalist injured during riot between Antifa and Proud Boys.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    What I'm saying is simple logic and reason. You're trying to make it mean more than it is out of convenience which is in itself lazy argumentation. I'm sure some people love it but I don't really care how you feel about it. You're not presenting any facts. You're trying to distort it in an extremely intellectually dishonest argumentation. I'm not arguing against the conventional definition. I'm telling it's not what you make it out to be. In fact, you're not even using the definition of the word. You're using the most lazy source you could possibly use; except the links that simply copy paste from that.

    The real definition is this:


    The term liberal or liberalism is not used the same way you do. You need to try harder to degenerate intelligence.
    The conventional interpretation is that it stems from 60s liberalism. It says so everywhere - Google, Wikipedia, etc.
    As I said, you are trying to argue against conventional definition of terminology that you are trying to use- you are not succeeding at white-washing liberalism's rather bloody history, instead you are just discrediting yourself. We get that you hate that dark side of liberalism is being brought into the light. But just because you are upset that someone criticizes ideology that you support, doesn't really change facts about that ideology. I find it quite amusing how folks that support liberalism and their religious fundamentalist colleagues (as folks that share same level of critical thinking abilities) tend to descend into realm of emotional accusations when confronted with rather basic facts.

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