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Thread: Supreme Court falls on side of Gerrymandering

  1. #1

    Default Supreme Court falls on side of Gerrymandering

    https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/...means-for-2020

    Well, this was something I was following for awhile. We are good and ed here in the US, 2020 census is coming up and States are going to gear up to precision slice congressional districts to make sure opposition parties can never get power ever again. Let's be honest, the SCOTUS decision is a victory for the hyper partisans, this is what American politics is going to be like going forward. Any thoughts, objections? Are there people who actually think this decision was a good thing?
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Supreme Court falls on side of Gerrymandering

    Hold the doom and gloom.

    Progressives should be glad they lost the Supreme Court gerrymandering case - The Washington Post

    A great puzzle of the past couple of years’ worth of political and constitutional debate has been that so many people, mostly progressives, have continued to insist on federal-court supervision of partisan gerrymandering long after it became clear that the ultimate arbiter would be a five-member Supreme Court majority of conservative, Republican-appointed justices.

    Supposedly the same institution that brought us the judicial-electoral train wreck known as Bush v. Gore, which effectively threw the 2000 election to Republican George W. Bush on the basis of threadbare legal reasoning, could be trusted to manage congressional elections forever.

    Thursday, in declaring nonjusticiable the question of how much partisan gerrymandering is too much, Chief Justice John G. Roberts Jr. and his fellow conservatives on the court have renounced a power to manipulate U.S. politics that they could have used quite mischievously if the justices were indeed the partisan hacks their critics claim them to be.

    The truth is that partisan gerrymandering is a really difficult question: There are risks to democracy in allowing it; there are risks to democracy in giving the nonelected federal courts, meaning, ultimately, the Supreme Court, responsibility for fixing it.

    The latter set of risks include: unprincipled judging by federal courts; inconsistent and incoherent attempts to distinguish between arcane statistical measures of “excessive” partisanship; and, most of all, the mutation of the Supreme Court into a national redistricting commission, which would turn the judicial confirmation process into a de facto vote on the future shape of congressional districts all across the United States.

    Progressives launched the litigation campaign for a federal ruling on partisan gerrymandering at a time when it seemed that Hillary Clinton would win the presidency in 2016, ensuring a sympathetic majority on the Supreme Court thereafter.

    Now that that strategy has played out, they should be breathing a sigh of relief or thanking the chief justice, not bemoaning the court’s supposed complacency.

    In fact, the results of the 2018 election — Democrats won a majority of the popular vote, and a majority of House seats, despite contesting the races on a GOP-gerrymandered map — showed that the practical need for a court ruling was overblown in the first place. The Cook Political Report’s David Wasserman and Ally Flinn had previously found that redistricting explained only 17 percent of the decline in competitive congressional districts between 1997 and 2017.

    Gerrymandering was not destiny; and, even without the justices’ involvement, it is not being allowed unchecked by other institutions of government, especially those at the state level. Ohio, Michigan, Colorado, Missouri and Utah approved referendums in 2018 that will reduce partisanship in redistricting after the 2020 Census.

    The issue is now in the hands of voters at the grass roots, which is where it should be. A great danger — the corruption of the federal courts by repetitive intervention in sordid partisan fights — has been averted.
    5-4: SCOTUS says partisan gerrymanders can't be challenged in court

    To me, this is a case where it’s easy to see the virtue in both sides’ arguments. On the one hand, why should unelected, unaccountable jurists micromanage how the people’s representatives draw district lines for elections? The Constitution assigns that task to state legislatures, with Congress empowered to check a particular state legislature if it goes too far in favoring one party or the other. This is a democratic function to the core, in other words, specifically charged to political entities that are directly accountable to voters. There are a few instances based on precedent in which the Court will intervene on gerrymandering, most notably the special case of gerrymanders drawn to disempower black voters. Those are “inherently suspect” in light of America’s history of persecuting blacks and the Reconstruction amendments that sought correct that. But Team Blue/Team Red power-grabbing isn’t inherently suspect; it’s part of the constitutional scheme, plainly foreseeable to the Founders when they chose to give the districting power to legislatures. If one party abuses its power, voters will punish them by electing new reps directly or electing a Congress dominated by the other party. (For all the hype about gerrymanders entrenching partisan power, we just saw the House change hands nine months ago, did we not?) That is to say, at least in theory, this problem is self-correcting by normal democratic means.

    Besides, how would one even go about deciding if a map is “too” unfair to one party or the other? Clearly some degree of partisan advantage is permissible under Article I. What sort of standard should the Court invent whole cloth to mess with that determination? Do we even trust federal judges, who are themselves partisan appointees, to be sticklers for neutrality in weighing what’s fair in partisan districting? And should they use the composition of the electorate now or try to predict its composition five years from now? This is a political question, best left to voters and their representatives to police, not a legal one.

    ...

    Naturally this is being heralded as the end of the world on political Twitter by lefties, but I think Vice reporter Cameron Joseph makes a good point. Given the extent of the Republican bloodbath of 2010, it’s unlikely that either party will have more of an advantage in redistricting in 2020 in the near term than the GOP had over the past decade. The dystopic scenarios in which state legislatures rig federal elections to turn their states completely (or almost completely) red or blue won’t arrive soon.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Supreme Court falls on side of Gerrymandering

    I mean, I guess I just reject the idea that Judicial standards would actually make the situation worse than it already is. Especially when the opinion piece you are referencing says dumb stuff like this:

    In fact, the results of the 2018 election — Democrats won a majority of the popular vote, and a majority of House seats, despite contesting the races on a GOP-gerrymandered map — showed that the practical need for a court ruling was overblown in the first place. The Cook Political Report’s David Wasserman and Ally Flinn had previously found that redistricting explained only 17 percent of the decline in competitive congressional districts between 1997 and 2017.
    You might as well bring a snowball into the Capitol building and claim it shows Global Warming isn't an issue. The issue is that this confirms for State legislatures that they can basically do whatever they want with congressional redistricting. Why would hyper partisan State legislatures not abuse this as hard as they could?
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Supreme Court falls on side of Gerrymandering

    Article 1, Section 4:
    The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Place of chusing Senators.

    Seems like the Supreme Court upheld the Constitution.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Supreme Court falls on side of Gerrymandering

    To add to what Infidel posted. It all depends on which state it was. North Carolina and Maryland are happy drawing wacked out districts for the party happening to win their elections. Florida, on the other hand, has an amendment in their state constitution saying their districts will be drawn fairly. If this were about Florida you might have gotten a different response.
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  6. #6
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Supreme Court falls on side of Gerrymandering

    Article 1, Section 4:
    The Times, Places and Manner of holding Elections for Senators and Representatives, shall be prescribed in each State by the Legislature thereof; but the Congress may at any time by Law make or alter such Regulations, except as to the Place of chusing Senators.
    Of course that was write by men who at the time did not think the US would have institutionalized parties



    Do really have a right to vote if you are not voting red?
    Last edited by conon394; June 30, 2019 at 03:17 PM.
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    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Supreme Court falls on side of Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Do really have a right to vote if you are not voting red?
    Blue states can do this too and I guess would be fools if they didn't at this point. I don't think the Framers of the Constitution were expecting political parties to bring in statisticians to maximize the votes of their party while minimizing the votes for the other party. But that is American politics, atm.
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  8. #8
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Supreme Court falls on side of Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by The spartan View Post
    Blue states can do this too and I guess would be fools if they didn't at this point. I don't think the Framers of the Constitution were expecting political parties to bring in statisticians to maximize the votes of their party while minimizing the votes for the other party. But that is American politics, atm.
    Thing is I might be a liberal lefty progressive but I don't want to see anybody doing it. I would rather see the house at 1000 members and have impartial compact districts created by non partisan means. I don't care who it hurts (for the US house) Same for the states non partisan district creation, not just one party trying to insulate itself from a loosing the popular vote whatever the party lucky to be in control after census.
    Last edited by conon394; June 30, 2019 at 03:29 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Supreme Court falls on side of Gerrymandering

    Then the party constituency who is willing to do this will win. It's all in the game, yo.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Supreme Court falls on side of Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Of course that was write by men who at the time did not think the US would have institutionalized parties
    So what? Change the Constitution, which clearly gives the authority to state legislatures and the Congress. Not the Supreme Court.
    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Thing is I might be a liberal lefty progressive but I don't want to see anybody doing it.
    When Texas was redistricting in the early 2000's (after Republicans had a decade of winning the majority of votes but losing the seats (one cycle was like 60% of the vote and a third of the seats)) did you support it, or were you one of those crying out against the Republican controlled redistricting and supporting Democrat efforts to prevent it?

  11. #11

    Default Re: Supreme Court falls on side of Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    When Texas was redistricting in the early 2000's (after Republicans had a decade of winning the majority of votes but losing the seats (one cycle was like 60% of the vote and a third of the seats)) did you support it, or were you one of those crying out against the Republican controlled redistricting and supporting Democrat efforts to prevent it?
    Look man, Early 2000's is a bit early for about 90% of the posters on this board. But if you really think he's lying about not wanting anybody to gerrymander, including Democrats in Maryland(right bloody frakking now, screw your early 00's bs), just call him a god damn liar. Out with it.
    Last edited by Gaidin; June 30, 2019 at 04:13 PM.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Supreme Court falls on side of Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    Look man, Early 2000's is a bit early for about 90% of the posters on this board.
    I don't think it is to early for conon. If he was still in diapers, he can just say so.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Supreme Court falls on side of Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    I don't think it is to early for conon. If he was still in diapers, he can just say so.
    But if you really think he's lying about not wanting anybody to gerrymander, including Democrats in Maryland(right bloody frakking now, screw your early 00's bs), just call him a god damn liar. Out with it.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Supreme Court falls on side of Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
    But if you really think he's lying about not wanting anybody to gerrymander, including Democrats in Maryland(right bloody frakking now, screw your early 00's bs), just call him a god damn liar. Out with it.
    I think I will get more information before making a decision.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Supreme Court falls on side of Gerrymandering

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    When Texas was redistricting in the early 2000's (after Republicans had a decade of winning the majority of votes but losing the seats (one cycle was like 60% of the vote and a third of the seats)) did you support it, or were you one of those crying out against the Republican controlled redistricting and supporting Democrat efforts to prevent it?
    Answering for myself here: yes of course. I wasn't as politically active in those years, but obviously fairness means reciprocation.
    They give birth astride of a grave, the light gleams an instant, then it's night once more.

  16. #16
    Katsumoto's Avatar Quae est infernum es
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    Default Re: Supreme Court falls on side of Gerrymandering

    It's not great but I understand why they made their decision, it's not really something for the courts to fix. Unfortunately I think gerrymandering is part of a deeper problem because so much of the US system seems to open for such partisanship. For example, in the UK both appointments to the Supreme Court and redistricting is done by an independent commission and it seems to work since I've never heard of any bias when it comes to those two issues in the UK. As Conon and Spartan said whatever noble intentions the Founders had I don't think they desired the current situation, and because the Constitution is practically considered a Holy Book by many Americans changing it doesn't seem very likely either.
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  17. #17
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Supreme Court falls on side of Gerrymandering

    When Texas was redistricting in the early 2000's (after Republicans had a decade of winning the majority of votes but losing the seats (one cycle was like 60% of the vote and a third of the seats)) did you support it, or were you one of those crying out against the Republican controlled redistricting and supporting Democrat efforts to prevent it?
    I said exactly what I supported. I don't want either (any party) to have the ability to be able to use institutional control of the state government after census to put in place skewed districts aimed a cementing a decade (or more) of political control with a significant minority of the vote. The SCOUTS did have some room to act to at least backstop when evidence shows a clear intent to make districts to say minimize the the voting power of a particular group.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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