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Thread: How true is the Bible?

  1. #81
    Logios's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    There are three types of people in the world that can be said to make up the world and these are those that consider the Bible to be the inerrant word of God, those that cling to the belief that it is optional, and those that just don't believe in it at all. The statement I have just made comes out of the Bible so in that it is quite inerrant. Strangely it is the most sought after book when stress is most apparent, why? Indeed it is even most sought after today by peoples who were denied it in the past so what is it about it that makes it so powerful a read?
    A highly simplified statement. There are many other types of people.
    When homo sapiens conquered the world and supressed the other variants of humans to extinction, this was not done by brute force of the individual, it was not done by higher intelligence, and it was not done by better technology. It was done by culture and stories. The neanderthalers were stronger, smarter and better tool and weapon makers than us, but their culture was limited. They could only manage small family units, while we, the Homo Sapiens could build huge tribes that were bound together by stories and culture.
    The bible is a strong collection of stories - millions of people are bound together by those stories. Asking whether the bible is factual is irrelevant - it is not its purpose to convey facts, but to bind people together.

  2. #82
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Logios,

    I think for your argument you stray a little from the point I was making which is what my Bible says and if today is any evidence for that then you must admit that for your argument there are only human beings. Of course those that don't believe it to be the word of God, that there isn't any God will shout the loudest, those that are not sure are still not sure and those that really believe can only do so because the Bible is inerrant. Yes, it's as simple as that.

  3. #83

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Logios,

    I think for your argument you stray a little from the point I was making which is what my Bible says and if today is any evidence for that then you must admit that for your argument there are only human beings. Of course those that don't believe it to be the word of God, that there isn't any God will shout the loudest, those that are not sure are still not sure and those that really believe can only do so because the Bible is inerrant. Yes, it's as simple as that.
    You seem to be making a common mistake, which is to say that people don't often think in the terms of 'it's all true' or 'it's all '. It is a side effect of the human condition to see things in shades of grey, where some truth can be derived from something despite the whole thing not being automatically true, otherwise critical analysis all across history would have failed spectacularly and our very understanding of history would be scatterbrained in its entirety given the bias of sources and so on.

  4. #84
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    You seem to be making a common mistake, which is to say that people don't often think in the terms of 'it's all true' or 'it's all '. It is a side effect of the human condition to see things in shades of grey, where some truth can be derived from something despite the whole thing not being automatically true, otherwise critical analysis all across history would have failed spectacularly and our very understanding of history would be scatterbrained in its entirety given the bias of sources and so on.
    Commodus1V,

    Concerning the Bible it is no mistake to say that despite the numbers in circulation most people do not accept that it is true, every last word of it. The history within it has been proved time and time again yet only to those that actually read it on a regular basis for most as we know only come into contact with it when death happens to a near or dear one or at Christmas and Easter, even the threat of death in the case of men going off to war. Why that is lies in the comfort it can and does bring not just to them left but for the departed as well. If there is a God and He is as loving as they say then all will be well in the end and so back to life as normal.

  5. #85

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    The history within it has been proved time and time again yet only to those that actually read it on a regular basis
    I cannot identify much of the structure or the point of your post, which is why I single down upon the thing I can explicitly pin down and rebuke, technical as it is. The 'history' is not proven at all; what you seem to mean is that the words strike people as true, relate to their circumstances thanks to a bit of reading between the lines that convince people it is the truth. But make no mistake, many of the historical claims made within are definitively unproven, however many times you read it.

  6. #86
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    I cannot identify much of the structure or the point of your post, which is why I single down upon the thing I can explicitly pin down and rebuke, technical as it is. The 'history' is not proven at all; what you seem to mean is that the words strike people as true, relate to their circumstances thanks to a bit of reading between the lines that convince people it is the truth. But make no mistake, many of the historical claims made within are definitively unproven, however many times you read it.
    CommodusIV,

    I think you over stretch your position when saying the people who read it are only doing so by reading between the lines to find what is true. The Old Testament is all about the fulfilling of God's promises to mankind as well as the coming of Messias to which the New Testament confirms. So, the point of my post is to find out just how much the Bible says is true by the response I get back fome others such as yourself. The people who find it to be not only true but it being the word of God in every aspect are those whom God has called to have the regeneration experience which is way beyond technical logic, me perhaps being a poor example of that.

    That said perhaps this will convince you that God works not just inside a person who is regenerate but in every aspect of Him bringing that person to the point of new life in Christ. I managed a toy wholesaler business in Edinburgh long before I became a Christian. I was married with two children at that time. One of my bosses had this brother in law who he gave work to and this guy for some reason made me and my wife his target for humiliating. He was always making snide remarks about what he'd do to my wife as if I wasn't there. My blood boiled yet I had to stay silent because of my position and this went on for months until I made up my mind that I was going to have him, even if it meant killing him. We had to come up north to a funeral and by this time i had made up my mind that it was him or me so when the funeral was over and instead of taking my wife home I headed to my work where I knew he would be. That is how out of control I had become. So, on driving into the parking space outside my work I was met by the other owner, there being a father and two sons owning the business. He came over to the car not expecting to see me that day at all and the first words he said to me were, " Have you heard about John Scott? " Replying no and what about him he then said, " He is dead, he got drunk went into the toilet and choked in his own vomit." At that moment a great weight just fell off my back and I felt then that God had intervened for Who else and I wasn't even a born again Christian then. It wasn't to be until much later on reading the Bible that I realised that even then God was leading me, drawing me to Christ and there is much more to tell on that.

  7. #87

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    I think you over stretch your position when saying the people who read it are only doing so by reading between the lines to find what is true.
    I think you overstretch my position by conflating the rebuttal that the Bible does not prove itself historically authentic with the idea that people only read between the lines to find truth, period. You will not be objectively proven that a thing is true by reading the Bible, only given things that sound right to you. It does not stretch farther than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    That said perhaps this will convince you that God works not just inside a person who is regenerate but in every aspect of Him bringing that person to the point of new life in Christ.
    An anecdote is not evidence. Someone getting their karma through circumstance does not equate to God ing with another person's life purely for your benefit. It is either evidence of an extremely biased god who damaged what may have been a perfectly viable family unit, or evidence of nothing at all aside from you constructing the event later to aid in your mindset for biblical intervention.

  8. #88
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    CommodusIV,

    What I wrote is perfectly true and runs true because that is what God's word says. Every person who ever lived and who will live is predetermined to do what God has ordained that they do whether they believe that or not for that is what is written. In heavenly time all history has been completed yet we, in our time, are still living it out. The day Jesus comes back is when our time is over. A new heaven and earth will replace what we now know as creation and already we can see the beginnings taking shape. What happened in my life's history has been witnessed by many who knew me then so I never had to make anything up to account for it. Indeed the prime example of God's working is there for all to see in that tiny nation Israel. Why are they still there and not only there but influencing most of the world's nations today? I read somewhere that there is only one banking system that is not under their control meaning that history is very much in their hands concerning the affairs of the world's nations. Yes, it's all there in the Bible.

  9. #89
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    I have told it about any holy scripture of any devotional religion .
    Take Paul for example, for first Christians he was an apostate killing christians in places of their worship desecrating their temples . Exactly what Jesus called the crimes against Spirit , unpardonable. But for many believers now he is apostle.
    According to Vedic religion , God always will make true words and beliefs of his pure devotees , God has infinite number of energies including one ,which can make impossible possible . For one true believer Paul will be an apostate, for another he will an apostle .
    This why one can believe in Avesta, another one in Torah, the third one in Vedas and for all three it work if they are devoted .
    Edit - to explain the last phrase about different religions
    What I read - the God is too superb and beatiful being for human mind to be able to see . That is why by his mercy he gives humans forms to worship . The soul's devotion ,inner inclination to form of worship and karma define her birth in certain religion and form of worshipable form of God .
    Last edited by Edelward; July 09, 2019 at 05:15 AM. Reason: Clarification
    Fitz Salnarville, Duke William's favourite knyghte,
    To noble Edelwarde his life dyd yielde;
    Withe hys tylte launce hee stroke with thilk a myghte,
    The Norman's bowels steemde upon the feeld.
    Old Salnarville beheld hys son lie ded, 235
    Against Erie Edelward his bowe-strynge drewe;
    But Harold at one blowe made tweine his head;
    He dy'd before the poignant arrowe flew.
    So was the hope of all the issue gone,
    And in one battle fell the sire and son
    .

  10. #90
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Indeed the prime example of God's working is there for all to see in that tiny nation Israel. Why are they still there and not only there but influencing most of the world's nations today? I read somewhere that there is only one banking system that is not under their control meaning that history is very much in their hands concerning the affairs of the world's nations. Yes, it's all there in the Bible.
    First part of that Being friends with the US, being surrounded by poorly run countries a lot slack because of the Holocaust... Any think can be gods will if yoy go that route. Its gods will the tiny nation of North Korea is fast becoming a nuclear power on a par with India. On the second to rolling right int Scrolls of the Elder Zion there dude. No Israel does not control world banking (not Jews in general either). You must have read some version of the Rothschild myth for correction a couple good quick reads:


    https://skeptoid.com/episodes/4311

    https://www.thejc.com/community

    https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ro...family-wealth/


    You might also note that during the period of Rothschild ascendancy and rise they had rivals such as Barings Bank decidedly not Jewish that was once called the 6th great power in Europe.

    Overall don't believe the Jewish banking control myth.
    Last edited by conon394; July 09, 2019 at 08:43 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  11. #91

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Indeed the prime example of God's working is there for all to see in that tiny nation Israel. Why are they still there and not only there but influencing most of the world's nations today?
    Because, as already stated, their existence is piggybacking on the goodwill of the US, and despite that they remain in a constant state of threat and are quite unstable within their own borders (Palastine says hello). Despite this state of threat, they have multiple 'get out of jail free' cards, as well as the fact more nations than the US (if that wasn't enough) would involve themselves if the hostile elements of the Middle East acted openly. I can gurantee that Israel would never survive on its own merits if Europe/the US completely left them alone with no support at all. I don't believe the conditions of that, as well as the fact that Israel in its current form is a modern creation in national terms, was explicitly noted in the Bible. Many banking systems are outside of Israel's control let alone Jewish control and I'd like to know where it was cited that Jews would effectively own the world economy. This is the sort of commentary that drives people away, from how narrow the views presented are, particularly when they are not cited and stretches of logic at best. Combined with your anecdotal claims, you've certainly made me a skeptic even when I've met others who pose far more convincing arguments for their religious beliefs.
    Last edited by CommodusIV; July 09, 2019 at 08:51 AM.

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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Perhaps shortened version's but until just the Deuteronomy there're demigods in Judaism including female ones and where can you find in the Bible ? Have all mentioning of them been omitted ?
    Last edited by Edelward; July 09, 2019 at 09:06 AM. Reason: Correction
    Fitz Salnarville, Duke William's favourite knyghte,
    To noble Edelwarde his life dyd yielde;
    Withe hys tylte launce hee stroke with thilk a myghte,
    The Norman's bowels steemde upon the feeld.
    Old Salnarville beheld hys son lie ded, 235
    Against Erie Edelward his bowe-strynge drewe;
    But Harold at one blowe made tweine his head;
    He dy'd before the poignant arrowe flew.
    So was the hope of all the issue gone,
    And in one battle fell the sire and son
    .

  13. #93
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edelward View Post
    Perhaps shortened version's but until just the Deuteronomy there're demigods in Judaism including female ones and where can you find in the Bible ? Have all mentioning of them been omitted ?
    An accessible and footnoted review of the arguments about when Judaism and the Hebrew bible became monotheistic, and if there was an earlier polytheistic period and also if there are other worldly beings not necessarily just gods servants but still fundamentally inferior to him.

    http://jesot.org/wp-content/uploads/...1.1-Heiser.pdf

    A more firm defense of the early polytheism

    http://academicexcellencesociety.com..._emergence.pdf
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #94
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    CommodusIV,

    What I wrote is perfectly true and runs true because that is what God's word says. Every person who ever lived and who will live is predetermined to do what God has ordained that they do whether they believe that or not for that is what is written. In heavenly time all history has been completed yet we, in our time, are still living it out. The day Jesus comes back is when our time is over. A new heaven and earth will replace what we now know as creation and already we can see the beginnings taking shape. What happened in my life's history has been witnessed by many who knew me then so I never had to make anything up to account for it. Indeed the prime example of God's working is there for all to see in that tiny nation Israel. Why are they still there and not only there but influencing most of the world's nations today? I read somewhere that there is only one banking system that is not under their control meaning that history is very much in their hands concerning the affairs of the world's nations. Yes, it's all there in the Bible.
    Old chap you are preaching. The Bible nowhere says that "ze jews control banking".

    As for predestination, it makes the concept of sin a joke, how can we choose to sin if God made us do it before time began? It makes us robots, and God a cruel idiot torturing his own toys.

    There's a great deal that is not in the Bible. Relativity, antibiotics, transplants, gender reassignment surgery. You are using a computer over the internet, neither of which is mentioned in the Bible.

    Its not all there.
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  15. #95

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edelward View Post
    What I read - the God is too superb and beatiful being for human mind to be able to see . That is why by his mercy he gives humans forms to worship . The soul's devotion ,inner inclination to form of worship and karma define her birth in certain religion and form of worshipable form of God .
    That's a good argument to make against exclusivity - the more universal ones who accept Christ and Bible as the scriptures, but not as the only valid ones.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

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  16. #96

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Their correspondence is considered to be forged, since the beginning of the modern era. It's a collection of rhetorical excercises written around the 4th and 5th centuries AD.
    Well Stoicism and Christianity have a huge lot in common, so contact between Stoics and Christians is not unlikely, mainly given they were contemporaries.

    Plus Senneca was in charge of educating future Emperors, and was overall a character connected to the upper echelons of Rome. Wouldn't St. Paul be interested in converting such people?

    St Paul being a Roman Citizen and a Christian would make sense to try to convert the upper classes related to the Emperor so that one day Rome could have a Christian Emperor that stops Christian persecution..
    Which was what happened, sooner or later, with Emperor Constantine making Christianity the Empire official religion. So the degree of forgery of the letters is disputeable. Even Tertullian accepts Senneca as "one of ours", albeit not completly.

    In fact it's in the interests of the some members of the Church (not others/all of them) to claim that such contact between Christians and Upper Class Romans (By the way, Stoicism often appeared in Roman aristocracy) didn't happen, because it would mean admiting the influence of pagan religion on Christianity.

    Which is nothing special, it's basically the same as admiting that ideas of past civilizations leave influence on the following ones.

    The most interesting point is that even when assuming your scenario of forgery, the possibility of Roman Christians and Roman Stoics from the Upper Classes interacting and influencing each other is hugely likely, given what happened with Emperor Constantine later on.

    And such mutual influence happened before Council of Nicea was established.

    So forgery or not, highly likely the scenario of christians and stoics influencing each other, given stoicism as a more spiritual movement (rather than just philosophy) was contemporary of early christianity, and often found in upper classes.

    For the highly prideful church members pointing/admiting this is "scandalous", but being honest is very tame and even normal considering how historical cycles go, and doesn't violate any dogma.

    From your source,

    This correspondence, consistent of eight letters from Seneca and six from Paul, is not especially interesting and contains nothing more than an exchange of polite greetings. Even though it makes rather disappointing reading, it enjoyed a certain fame subsequently." (Early Christian Greek and Latin Literature, vol. 1, p. 405)
    Can confirm. Having read the letters, it's nothing special and is more about formalities and polite greetings than whatever else. Nothing remotely controversial.

    You say it's "rethorical exercises", if there's an exercise, is just about politeness without going in depth about anything in particular. There is not enough related content for a "rethorical exercise".
    Last edited by fkizz; July 09, 2019 at 09:27 PM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  17. #97
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Edelward,

    The very first Christian was righteous Abel fathered by the first man Adam. Yes the Godly were not called Christians then, rather Saints so there were no other religions then as they didn't appear until the time of Ninus or Nimrod as we know him and that after the flood. Why we know all that is because God had Moses write it all down for the benefit of a people who had been under the power of Egyptian gods this being authenticated not only by Jesus Christ but the rest of the writers of the New Testament. All these other religions are but the imagination of man and not the God of all creation Who just happens to be The Lord Jesus Christ, the very reason that He came into the world for.

  18. #98
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    It's not my scenario, fkizz, but a unanimously accepted opinion firstly formed since the first time the fictitious correspondence was mentioned, in late 4th century. Jerome himself did not take the authenticity of the letters very seriously, presumably because of how little the poor Latin of the correspondence resembled Seneca's style. Not to mention the fact that Paul was probably not able to speak or write in Latin. Your arguments about the interest Paul would have in converting the imperial dynasty to Christianity are not very convincing either. There's quite a distance between wishful thinking and actual reality, which means that an appeal at common sense can be easily reversed: Suggesting that Seneca, the tutor of the emperor, would ever come in contact with a random preacher of a marginal sect inside the generally ignored religion of Judaism seems rather preposterous. The effort of later Christian apologists to establish a supposed strong relationship between Christianity and Roman-Greek philosophy, in order to legitimise and increase the prestige of the former, are nice rhetorical excercises, but they severely lack in evidence and objectivity.

  19. #99

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    All these other religions are but the imagination of man and not the God of all creation Who just happens to be The Lord Jesus Christ, the very reason that He came into the world for.
    Good to know that you still hold onto this venomous belief--a belief that has unironically eradicated entire cultures and religions, on the pretext that they were all "unenlightened savages" who believed in demons. I guess being from the UK, you can actually say that, but for people from the Americas, many regard this belief as dangerous(IMO), as it had a direct involvement in the destruction of the indigenous religions, following the pretext that all other gods or religions or belief systems outside of Christianity were false and thus worthy of eradication. Well, thankfully, humanity came up with secularism and religious tolerance(neither are mentioned explicitly in the bible, to my knowledge--I admit I might be wrong), so that we could stop unjustly persecuting others for simply possessing different religious beliefs than our own.
    Last edited by Genghis Skahn; July 10, 2019 at 12:59 PM.

  20. #100
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Why we know all that is because God had Moses write it all down
    That is usually called national myth making and given the conflicts and repetitiveness of the OT God was a bad narrator. You do realize not even people Like Martian Luther belied what you suggest.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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