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Thread: How true is the Bible?

  1. #61
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    In regards to post 60... Amen! And yes, the great irony of that word here, is not entirely lost on me (imagine that)...

    - A

  2. #62
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    I do find it amusing that so many people who, under normal circumstances, are perfectly capable of nuanced textual interpretations, suddenly, and as if by magic, lose this ability when discussing Scripture. It's like they flip a switch and decide that meaning and truth can only be attainable through proofs of an absolute, almost mathematical nature.
    That's because it's a post hoc rationalization for their disbelief and not what actually grounds it. First they disbelieve, and then they go out in search of "intellectual" warrants for their disbelief. Even if you address and rebut all their arguments, they still won't believe.

  3. #63

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    That's because it's a post hoc rationalization for their disbelief and not what actually grounds it. First they disbelieve, and then they go out in search of "intellectual" warrants for their disbelief. Even if you address and rebut all their arguments, they still won't believe.
    Correct. The artificial parameters that they construct for determining the legitimacy of the text are so rigid and literalist that they put most fundamentalists shame. That's why I typically dismiss theological debates with people whose vitriol belies the fact that they've never engaged in meaningful discussion on these issues.

  4. #64
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Commodus1V,

    To continue even after my conversion I still knew little about Jesus other then accepting Him as the Son of God until one evening around the back of ten and having nothing else to do I went to bed with this Bible opened across my chest. The next thing I knew was that I was up in the air in darkness moving at a pace and feeling quite frightened. Out of the darkness I could see a figure below me and until what I saw as a head only because the eyes opened and the mouth was saying something that I couldn't hear but yet it was talking past me as over my shoulder. It was horrible and boy was I frightened as I cringed at seeing this. The next thing I knew was sitting up in bed with me shaking like a leaf and covered from head to toe in sweat. The time was around six O'clock and so i decided to get up, get washed and head for work. When I arrived at the garage for petrol John looked at me and said, " You look like you've seen a ghost." I told him what had happened and he advised me to go speak to the minister but I declined asking him to say nothing to anyone about this.

    That coming Sunday some of us were up at the manse for chat and coffee when the subject of the crucifixion came up and as one guy was talking I interrupted him to tell what I saw. That room went deathly silent as I portrayed what I had seen and what was most strange about all this is that I had never looked into the crucifixion at all. Apart from the minister's wife saying I had been given something from God to see I don't remember another word that was said but I do remember pouring over my Bible everything I could find on the crucifixion realising that what I had seen was the reality of it and not the pretty pictures that religious artists portrayed it. I had been given to see Christ dying moments on that cross. For some six or seven hours I had been taken back in time to see what Christ did for me and so many others. I found it all there in the Bible eventually.

  5. #65

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    That's because it's a post hoc rationalization for their belief and not what actually grounds it. First they believe, and then they go out in search of "intellectual" warrants for their belief. Even if you address and rebut all their arguments, they still believe.
    FYP

    Besides, I'd love to see what you can rebuff using the tired, and thoroughly debunked ontological argument

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail
    Correct. The artificial parameters that they construct for determining the legitimacy of the text are so rigid and literalist that they put most fundamentalists shame. That's why I typically dismiss theological debates with people whose vitriol belies the fact that they've never engaged in meaningful discussion on these issues.
    Man posts on a discussion and debate forum that he doesn't want to have a discussion or a debate with people that disagree with him. Classic!

    I guess your beliefs are not really that strong if they can't stand up to a little scrutiny...

  6. #66
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Is the correct answer. Christ did not preach a rebellious secular ideology which was concerned with the deconstruction of irreligious institutions; Matthew 22:21 is fairly explicit on the necessity of the separation between the spiritual and the temporal.
    The contemporary perception of slavery was that subservience and inferiority were attributes of the slave's being, not just something derived from a legal status in a secular framework. In that sense I don't think in the the temporal and spiritual are easily separated.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    FYP
    I'm not sure what you think you're fixing, your edit seems perfectly right and proper to me. Christian faith isn't a matter of intellectual assent to a historical fact or some such, it's about trust and loyalty, which is indeed a choice. We can all choose whether to have faith or not. If you've chosen not to, no problem, Christianity isn't for you. If you don't want to be united to God, that's okay, he won't force you. You'll stay separated from him for all eternity.

  8. #68

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    The contemporary perception of slavery was that subservience and inferiority were attributes of the slave's being, not just something derived from a legal status in a secular framework. In that sense I don't think in the the temporal and spiritual are easily separated.
    That's a fair point, though I don't see that it contradicts the notion that Roman slavery was an irreligious institution.

  9. #69

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    One can have whatever opinion they want on the Bible. At least just make minimal effort to educate yourselves on this conundrum.

    I've seen posts here that typically are points uttered by die-hard catholics against protestantism sola scriptura, and points often uttered by die-hard protestants who reject the catholic ecclesiastical structure. Irony being the ones here saying such points are atheists/sceptics.

    Or posts who just reject because it's the actual trend. Those rejecting just because it's "trendy", had they been born in XII century, likely would've been christians just because it would be "trendy".

    So have whatever opinion on the Bible, no need to judge, however do yourselves a favour and educate yourselves on the matters of Biblical messages, how to interpret the Bible, minimal effort on Theology at least, and then ok, you may be ready to have your opinion a more solid thing.

    If you're brave enough also ponder on the many different tribes that eventually formed the jews, and on how the romans divided the jews into several rival factions, as an attempt to dominate Judeia.
    Last edited by fkizz; July 04, 2019 at 11:29 AM.
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  10. #70
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    That's a fair point, though I don't see that it contradicts the notion that Roman slavery was an irreligious institution.
    Hmm, reading a bit on how this debate was held in 19th century America. Quite interesting. Perhaps deserves a thread of its own. This article presents two opposing views (both mistaken IMHO, but interesting nonetheless).
    Last edited by Muizer; July 04, 2019 at 11:47 AM.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  11. #71

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Hmm, reading a bit on how this debate was held in 19th century America. Quite interesting. Perhaps deserves a thread of its own. This article presents two opposing views (both mistaken IMHO, but interesting nonetheless).
    I think we need to draw a distinction between motive and justification; the former is predicated upon desire whilst the latter is a rationalization of, or excuse for, that desire. An institution being justified or excused on the basis of religious reasoning is not the same as its raison d'etre being religious in nature. The purpose of slavery was not to preach Christ's truth or live by His principles - it was to profiteer. That American slavers appealed to Scripture for justification is hardly surprising, but it doesn't mean that the institution was religious.

  12. #72
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    it doesn't mean that the institution was religious.
    I would never take that position. Has anyone ever? That does not mean the question of the attitude towards slavery in scripture is of no interest. It evidently was to those quoted in the article I posted. While their conclusions are opposite, both assume the bible expresses divine intent regarding slavery. One takes the bible as affirming there is no sin in participating in slavery because it does not explicitly distance itself from the concept; the other claims that equality before God was intended to eventually undermine inequality amongst men.

    The former is quite shallow in assuming that what is described is prescribed. The second is problematic because it implies that divine intent cannot be found in the bible except in hindsight, which rather reduces its value as a moral guideline.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  13. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    I would never take that position. Has anyone ever?
    In response to my claim that Christ's word does not advocate for the destruction of irreligious institutions, you seemed to imply that there was some doubt over whether Roman and/or Israelite slavery could be considered as secular or temporal.

    Me: "Christ did not preach a rebellious secular ideology which was concerned with the deconstruction of irreligious institutions; Matthew 22:21 is fairly explicit on the necessity of the separation between the spiritual and the temporal."

    You: "The contemporary perception of slavery was that subservience and inferiority were attributes of the slave's being, not just something derived from a legal status in a secular framework. In that sense I don't think in the the temporal and spiritual are easily separated."

    That does not mean the question of the attitude towards slavery in scripture is of no interest. It evidently was to those quoted in the article I posted. While their conclusions are opposite, both assume the bible expresses divine intent regarding slavery. One takes the bible as affirming there is no sin in participating in slavery because it does not explicitly distance itself from the concept; the other claims that equality before God was intended to eventually undermine inequality amongst men.

    The former is quite shallow in assuming that what is described is prescribed. The second is problematic because it implies that divine intent cannot be found in the bible except in hindsight, which rather reduces its value as a moral guideline.
    I haven't argued that the attitudes shown toward slavery in Scripture are of no interest; I stated that Scripture has no particular interest in condemning irreligious institutions - of which slavery is one. The specific points you are raising vis-a-vis American slavery are a tangent from the original conversation.

  14. #74

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Regarding the Hebrew books of the Bible, it's hard to interpret references to slavery from a modern perspective due to the language and cultural context. There were no separate words for slave, or servant, or employee. All were ᶜăbędîm (singular ᶜăbęd), which comes from the verbal root that means "to work". There was seemingly no inherent negative connotation to being an ᶜăbęd, considering it was a common element in the names people would give their children. The negativity with which the circumstance was seen depended largely on the virtue of who it was you served. It's safe to say that it was considered a negative outcome to become an ᶜăbęd through military defeat, but at the time, it was nevertheless the best possible outcome the defeated could realistically hope for. At the same time, the institution was part of the social safety net. If you were starving or couldn't afford to properly care for your children, you would sell yourself or one or more of your children into servitude for a fixed period of time. With this in mind, the biblical law codes are primarily concerned with what was considered the ethical treatment of ᶜăbędîm​, not with whether or not the institution itself was moral or not. It comes from the perspective of the institution as a given, which it certainly was in the cultural context of the time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  15. #75
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Not long after my conversion I had the opportunity of adding another toyshop franchise to the one I had. It was all arranged by the same guy who gave me the first one and at that time it all seemed plain sailing. This time it was in Buckie at one of the shops which attracted people from all over the North of Scotland, the original owner having retired and the new owners not interested in the toy side ot things but wanting to carry on the tradition gave us this opportunity. The lass I chose to run the place unknown to me was a born again Christian too and little did I know at the time that she was the centre of one of my dreams. That dream was that I walked through the swinging doors of a hospital ward to see my little baby girl lying in one of these plastic cot things they use for new born babies. Her mother was there yet I couldn't see her face so the dream made little sense as I was not married and told by some geezer that because I was a divorcee I could never marry again. Eight years later that dream came true just as I saw it back then.

    So how did I get round the divorce thing? This is something that to my surprise splits many ministers in the Evangelical churches and points clearly to the sheep and goats parable Jesus told of , that there are even men in pulpits who do not know the Scriptures. 2nd Corinthians 5:17 apparently doesn't mean what it says yet Paul makes it quite clear, " Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away, behold, the new has come." Eventually I got married and to the girl whom I never knew at the time was a born again Christian and she gave me two boys and that little girl in my dream but it took eight years for that to be fulfilled. You see everything with God does not have to be immediate but it will be in His timing.

  16. #76
    Edelward's Avatar Vicarius
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    Any holy scripture is only true in the heart of a believer . Mind is finite and designed to make sense in the temporary material world while spiritual world is in department of spiritual heart - the sit of eternal soul
    Fitz Salnarville, Duke William's favourite knyghte,
    To noble Edelwarde his life dyd yielde;
    Withe hys tylte launce hee stroke with thilk a myghte,
    The Norman's bowels steemde upon the feeld.
    Old Salnarville beheld hys son lie ded, 235
    Against Erie Edelward his bowe-strynge drewe;
    But Harold at one blowe made tweine his head;
    He dy'd before the poignant arrowe flew.
    So was the hope of all the issue gone,
    And in one battle fell the sire and son
    .

  17. #77
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    I haven't argued that the attitudes shown toward slavery in Scripture are of no interest; I stated that Scripture has no particular interest in condemning irreligious institutions - of which slavery is one. The specific points you are raising vis-a-vis American slavery are a tangent from the original conversation.
    Depends I didn't bring up the separation between the institution and its impact on inter-personal relations. In terms of 'truth' I'm more interested in the latter: even if it is not God's expressed will to overthrow the institution, what is his expressed will concerning how masters and slaves should treat eachother? After all, many a sin in the eyes of God concerns injury of a sort to a fellow human being. Is a master-slave relation possible without sin?
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  18. #78
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Edelward View Post
    Any holy scripture is only true in the heart of a believer . Mind is finite and designed to make sense in the temporary material world while spiritual world is in department of spiritual heart - the sit of eternal soul
    Edelward,

    There is holy and there is Holy which only God is and so any scripture outside of His Scriptures are not viable or experimental. What I am saying is that anything outside of the Bible is not therefore Holy as it is not from God's word. So, when a person is born again by believing that Jesus Christ died on their behalf to take away their sin that is the moment when God the Holy Spirit takes up residence in their hearts making them the new creation in Christ Jesus. Any other spirit is false simply because they lead people away from the true God and the only way to enter heaven.

  19. #79

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    delete.

  20. #80

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Depends I didn't bring up the separation between the institution and its impact on inter-personal relations. In terms of 'truth' I'm more interested in the latter: even if it is not God's expressed will to overthrow the institution, what is his expressed will concerning how masters and slaves should treat eachother? After all, many a sin in the eyes of God concerns injury of a sort to a fellow human being. Is a master-slave relation possible without sin?
    My view on the matter is derived principally from passages in Ephesians and Colossians.

    Eph. 6:9: "And, masters, do the same to them. Stop threatening them, for you know that both of you have the same Master in heaven, and with him there is no partiality."
    Col. 4:1: "Masters, provide your slaves with what is right and fair, because you know that you also have a Master in heaven."

    Whilst there are many other passages which refer to the relationship between master and servant, the above excerpts probably offer the clearest explanation of God's "expressed will".

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