Page 3 of 10 FirstFirst 12345678910 LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 200

Thread: How true is the Bible?

  1. #41

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    Whether bought individually or in job lots is immaterial since all have to be paid for so that doesn't change anything as far as the statistics are concerned. Most of the job lots are going into countries where the people have never had the chance to have one never mind reading it and the demand is huge.
    It matters quite a lot as what you claim and the numbers don't say the same thing. All in all, it's telling enough that you're relying on a pissing contest. If you're fine with that there isn't much I can say.
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    Cities: Skylines
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...ities-Skylines

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  2. #42

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    I think the most relevant eduction here would be history, not religion. The bible is a historical document. Christian scholarship took the bible as premise for centuries of philosophizing. Critical analysis of sources is something of the past 50 years or so. How can religious scholarship, with the possible exception of contemporary discourse, then be anything but an undesirable source of bias in the search of how truthful the bible is?
    There are different areas of competence on the issue of scripture. An historical analysis of the Bible is very different from a theological one - even though I acknowledge that the latter is often influenced by the former. The direct answer to your question is that Christians have already assumed (in most cases) scriptural inerrancy whereas historians have not. Christians are seeking to find the truth within the text, not whether or not the text is itself true. When I accused the poster above of having no religious education, my point was that he clearly has no idea why the Abrahamic texts are persuasive to so many; his childlike analysis simply supposes that believers are gullible fools who worship fairy tales.
    Last edited by ep1c_fail; July 01, 2019 at 04:29 PM.

  3. #43
    Praefectus
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6,125

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Cyclops,

    I'm afraid we don't agree on the talk between Pilate and Jesus because as I said Jesus answered him prior to the remark, " What is truth? " Pilate if you remember was being innundated with demands for His execution based on Him being an enemy of Rome after the original claims weren't working these being that He was blaspheming against the Israelite God. Pilate had his own gods to worry about as well as the words of his wife warning him to be wary of the Jews as she knew there was something different about Jesus. So, for him to retort after the questions were put to Jesus, " What is truth? " seems quite a reasonable response to a man who knew Jesus to be innocent of any of the charges yet still had to deal with Him as well as the angry crowd yelling for Him to be put to death. The, " needs of the many," was the only alternative after they refused his offer of Jesus for Barrabas. Therefore the prophecies were being fulfilled but he never knew about them as he gave in to the mob.
    Jesus does not answer Pilate, we agree, yes? the rest is your intepretation and not scripture.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Yes there are so many Bibles and yet the KJV out publishes the whole lot put together and as I have never read them all or anything like them all, I can only assume that the core message is still the same in each one. That message being that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God upon which the church will be built and is still being built. Now where many churches disagree is in the doctrine they have adopted the main being that " A man must be born again if he is to enter heaven." That is that a person, man or woman, must confess their sins and be adjudged repentant so that the Spirit of God might enter them in the moment of conversion. How does a child converse with God that he or she is repentant never knowing that he or she inherited the nature of sin before they had ever sinned physically? Many systems believe that sprinkling does just that and it is quite contrary to any Bible I know of.
    You're preaching now old chap. As for the number of Bibles published, if I buy a press and print a trillion trillion copies of my own Bible that says Jesus was a man and not the Son of God will you believe that story? I wouldn't so please, the number of Bibles printed is irrelevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    As for the Dead Sea Scrolls this is what one author has to say. Quote,

    Even though not all of the scrolls are unrolled and translated more than half a century later, the answers are coming clear. The texts are amazingly similar to the documents we already have. The variations are less than two percent, and not a single teaching or doctrine of the Bible we have is altered. Rather than posing a threat to the Christian faith, the Dead Sea Scrolls have, in fact, provided convincing support for the genuineness of God’s revelation as given to us in the Bible. Unquote.
    2% is not 0%, its different and I'm glad we agree. If i repay the bank 2% less than my mortgage is worth its not accurate. The dead Sea Scrolls change the text of the bible. They predate the current version. The word of God changes across various manuscripts.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    As for Jesus supposedly quoting Scripture not in the Bible could you quote me chapter and verse?
    Old chap I have done so many times. Here we go again. John 7:38 "He that believeth on me, as the Scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water". There is no scripture that says this, although there are similar statements. Jesus quotes a scripture not in the Bible. Either Jesus was mistaken or our Bibles are incomplete.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Concerning passover night or eve one has to look at the Jewish day which began with the eve or night unlike us who make a day begin in the morning so to say that Passover began by the preparations made in the eve is just the same as saying they began at night. I don't have any problem with that. The Moabite question is answered by Infidel144.
    Not to my satisfaction.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Now of course the books were written by men but by men inspired by the Holy Spirit so for all intents and purposes these writings are God's word being authenticated by Jesus Christ Who is God.
    The word of God is not the same as the word of men inspired by God. "Inspired writing" is the catholic and Orthodox position, be careful old chap, don't fall into Papism.

    Here's a simple test. Change one word in your Bible, say a single one like "the" to "a". Read to a friend, see if they notice. The curses of the Book of revelations actually don't happen to someone who does it, there have been typos (eg the infamous "Adulterer's Bible") in the past and no snakes or dragons or scorpions appeared and tortured the publishers. They were embarrassed because they made accidental mockery of a very beautiful and important religious book. But no scorpions.

    The words of the Bible are important because of the strong belief of the writers and readers (readers like you, your belief makes it beautiful don't you agree? You could write something as beautiful too I believe, you faith is strong enough). It is in my view idolatry to adore it as some sacred immutable thing when it is demonstrably not.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  4. #44
    basics's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    9,028

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Cyclops,

    Referal is quite different from exact repetition yet there is no doubt Jesus uses living water as a reference to Himself just as the Scriptures say. He is the living water of both Old and New Covenants.

    Bible verses related to Living Water from the King James Version (KJV) by Relevance

    - Sort By Book Order

    John 4:14 - But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.

    John 7:38 - He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

    John 4:13-15 - Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again: (Read More...)

    Revelation 21:6 - And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

    Isaiah 44:3 - For I will pour water upon him that is thirsty, and floods upon the dry ground: I will pour my spirit upon thy seed, and my blessing upon thine offspring:

    John 7:37 - In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

    Jeremiah 2:13 - For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, [and] hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water.

    Revelation 22:17 - And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

    Revelation 22:1 - And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

    Isaiah 12:3 - Therefore with joy shall ye draw water out of the wells of salvation.

    Isaiah 58:11 - And the LORD shall guide thee continually, and satisfy thy soul in drought, and make fat thy bones: and thou shalt be like a watered garden, and like a spring of water, whose waters fail not.

    John 7:37-39 - In the last day, that great [day] of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. (Read More...)

    Revelation 7:16-17 - They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. (Read More...)

    Isaiah 41:17-18 - [When] the poor and needy seek water, and [there is] none, [and] their tongue faileth for thirst, I the LORD will hear them, I the God of Israel will not forsake them. (Read More...)

    Jesus if one reads the chapter infers that He is truth within the question of Him being a king. Pilate's remark was a picture of his frustration at now being the centre of the Jews' demands to have an innocent man killed. The Jews claimed the truth and Jesus said He was the truth and so to wash his hands of the proceedings he said " What is truth?" almost in desperation at the situation he found himself in. So, no, I don't agree with your assessment.

    The difference between you publishing millions of books and calling them bibles is quite different from the Bible I refer to, why? Because it delivers what it says regarding new life in Christ to them that seek Jesus' forgiveness for it doesn't just stop at the reading in the case of many. I mean your books will not stop one from going into hell when your time is up yet Jesus Christ guarantees the opposite for all them that are called by Him.

    There hasn't ever been a person saved by God who had perfect satisfaction before they believed as that power comes from the Spirit in breaking down the hardness that stops a person from believing.

    Jesus is the word of God just as the Holy Ghost is also God so what has been written comes from the hearts of them who are indwelt by God, who belong to Him, and who are adopted into His family by His redeeming blood. Of course the world doesn't believe or accept that yet all believers from the beginning of time were all part of an unbelieving and disobedient world.

    Peter writes that Scripture can only be interpreted by the leading of the Holy Spirit through His indwelling work or by revelation to a reader so salvation is seen to be the total working of all three Persons in the Trinity as being the source and outworking of their salvation. Being then the word and work of God delivered to fallen man how can it be an idol?

  5. #45

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Edgy. Though this wouldn't be the first time that I've had to witness a leftist tantrum over Christianity from someone who patently has no education in religion whatsoever.
    *I'm not crying you are, he said while choking back the tears*

    If you really think that constitutes a tantrum, then you need help mate.

    But to paraphrase you once again, this isn't the first time I've had to witness a conservative tantrum over Christianity once their beliefs in superstitious hocus pocus have been analysed.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    When I accused the poster above of having no religious education, my point was that he clearly has no idea why the Abrahamic texts are persuasive to so many;
    Brainwashing? Lack of critical analysis? You have to admit that the religious indoctrination of impressionable kids into a specific faith is little more than brainwashing. However, it is lucky that all religious people just so happen to be indoctrinated into the correct, one true faith. How convenient.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    his childlike analysis simply supposes that believers are gullible fools who worship fairy tales.
    You're right. All believers are obviously theology students who have patiently analysed all tenets of every single major religion before carefully choosing their specific faith. Isn't that how it works?

    Don't worry, I once had an invisible friend too. His name was Gerald, but I stopped believing in him at the age of seven. Maybe one day, you'll get there too.

  6. #46

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    If the text says "Moabites cannot be come Jews for ten generations" and later says "King David's grandmother was a Moabite" that's a contradiction: King David is King of the Jews.
    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    From Gill's exegesis:
    An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord,.... Or marry an Israelitish woman, as Jarchi, and so the Targum of Jonathan,"the male Ammonites and Moabites are not fit to take a wife of the congregation of the Lord;'for the Jews restrain this to men, because it is, as Aben Ezra observes, an Ammonite, not an Ammonitess, a Moabite, not a Moabitess; they allow that females of those nations might be married to Israelites, that is, provided they were proselytesses, as Ruth wasF13:
    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    The Moabite question is answered by Infidel144.
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Not to my satisfaction.
    I would say that from a historical perspective, Gill's exegesis is partially correct. Although, the issue is not about marriage or who may become a Jew.

    Deuteronomy 23:3 states that neither a Moabite nor his decedents to the tenth generation may enter into the assembly of Yahweh. Moabite here is specifically male, for the following reason:

    mōwᵓāḇî (singular masculine)
    mōwᵓāḇîṯ (singular feminine)
    mōwᵓāḇîm (plural masculine or mixed gender)

    If the prohibition had used the plural form, it would be ambiguous, but it uses the singular form. I can't think of any example of a law code that uses the plural, probably for this reason. That is why you see translations like “your male and female servants” etc. If it had meant male and female, it would have been mōwᵓāḇî ūmōwᵓāḇîṯ, “Moabite nor Moabitess”.

    In any case, a female Israelite would not enter the assembly of Yahweh either. It's not really “enter into” anyway, it's “be in”. I'm assuming the former tends to be used because it's more elegant in translation and/or reflects a particular non-literal religious interpretation. This word translated as “assembly” is used elsewhere - the assembly of Israel, the assembly of Judah, the assembly of the people of God, as in the following:

    “The chiefs of all the people, of all the tribes of Israel, presented themselves in the assembly of the people of God, four hundred thousand foot-soldiers bearing arms.” ~Judges 20:2

    An exaggerated number no doubt, but in any case, the assembly are the arms-bearing men who had some say in political decisions in exchange for military service.

    The Targum Yonatan is essentially an exegesis dated to about the Second Century CE. It seems to misunderstand the meaning of the term in its original context. Texts dating from the period when the assembly continued to function are obviously more reliable. If you look at who else is prohibited from being in the assembly, it's also clear that it's not referring to conversion or marriage. Composition of the Book of Ruth most likely dates to the Persian Period.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  7. #47
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
    Moderation Overseer Civitate Moderation Mentor

    Join Date
    Jul 2014
    Posts
    4,544

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    I don't know about this Seneca guy, but I recall reading that Jews were pretty influential in the development of Greek philosophy.
    The story about Pythagoras is probably baseless, as well. Pythagoras himself is notorious for allegedly being inspired by a multitude of foreign cultures, from Zoroastrian Persians to pagan Thracians, so the addition of the Jews is hardly surprising. The legend presumably generated from a passage of Hermippus, who mentioned the connection to the Jews (together with that of the Thracians), in order to highlight the eccentricity of a philosopher he personally disliked. More precisely, he believed that a couple of Pythagoras' bizarre prohibitions (especially, his obsession with blasphemy) originated from the Jews. Then, his account was exploited by Hellenised Jews (like Josephus and perhaps Aristobulus) and Church Fathers, in order to reinforce their special narrative:

    The former desired to increase the prestige of the Biblical teachings, by associating them with the highly esteemed Greek culture (or even by claiming it as the original source), while the latter's goal was to protect the intellectual integrity of Christianity, by again tying it with the admired philosophical thinking of the ancient Greeks. Overall, I am sure that Greek philosophy was influenced by a variety of Near Eastern civilisations, which could explain certain similarities with the Jewish religion, as they may even share the same original source (e.g. Egyptian priestly wisdoms). That being said, I doubt the Jewish role was prominent, at least in comparison to Egypt, Mesopotamia and Anatolia. If you are interested in the subject, you should read Bar-Kochva's work over the subject, which is almost entirely available for free.

  8. #48

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    Nothing, though by historical precedence you would be considered a heretic for it, that same precedence acknowledges you as having a viable shot of making that claim and establishing your way as a viable denomination.
    So what parts are considered to be essential canon? Does that mean the rest is irrelevant garbage?

  9. #49

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    So what parts are considered to be essential canon? Does that mean the rest is irrelevant garbage?
    Why are you asking me? I find your tangent to have lost its relevance to the key point regarding your all or nothing approach, which you don't seem willing to give a credible response to anymore.

    But to give a little swing to the pendulum, as I am not the sort who believes an individual is a homengenuous devil in every aspect of a discussion should I disagree with one take (an attitude all too frequent in here and a key contributor to why I don't put much effort even keeping track of these threads),

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    Brainwashing? Lack of critical analysis? You have to admit that the religious indoctrination of impressionable kids into a specific faith is little more than brainwashing. However, it is lucky that all religious people just so happen to be indoctrinated into the correct, one true faith. How convenient.
    The writing itself may be persuasive to some, but the wider scale of influence can boil down to several factors that don't have anything to do with the writing of the Bible. The presence of an enigmatic preacher who takes the most appealing parts and turns it into a malleable sermon for those seeking purpose, or better yet, are in such straits of life they need to cling to something. The convenience on a political level to give people a unifying glue, as it was in history (serving as a moral codebook certainly helped its growth of appeal in less philosophical periods). The ever ironic lack of critical analysis that is necessary to be a fully fledged respected member of the religious society, boiling down to tidbits you've taken to heart while others remain in the depths by sermons, upbringing where you are told 'that's how it is', and a general conformity that has always been associated with people's need to fit in.

    There seems to be the idea that Christians as a whole actively analyze the Bible and have derived solid inner meanings for themselves as compared to those who just take it too literally. Perhaps that is true in some cases, but looking at history and looking at the plentiful Christians I have met, that's just not universal at all, and it is far more likely to boil down to the above factors. Just as the most steadfast beliefs boil down to people's deeply rooted personal interpretation of what is written, so too do the masses as a general rule simply go along with what is convenient, what gives them a system in their darkest places, and what can unite them in a simple way that doesn't involve having ever opened a bible, let alone critically analyzing the contents. This is merely to establish its original appeal, never mind its self-sustaining growth that comes from people following along when meeting someone so convinced of their faith to repeat that cycle of beginning and the indoctrination from childhood as far as what is and isn't a simple fact of life.

  10. #50

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    *I'm not crying you are, he said while choking back the tears*

    If you really think that constitutes a tantrum, then you need help mate.

    But to paraphrase you once again, this isn't the first time I've had to witness a conservative tantrum over Christianity once their beliefs in superstitious hocus pocus have been analysed.

    Brainwashing? Lack of critical analysis? You have to admit that the religious indoctrination of impressionable kids into a specific faith is little more than brainwashing. However, it is lucky that all religious people just so happen to be indoctrinated into the correct, one true faith. How convenient.

    You're right. All believers are obviously theology students who have patiently analysed all tenets of every single major religion before carefully choosing their specific faith. Isn't that how it works?

    Don't worry, I once had an invisible friend too. His name was Gerald, but I stopped believing in him at the age of seven. Maybe one day, you'll get there too.
    Oh dear. Touched another nerve.

  11. #51

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Oh dear. Touched another nerve.
    'Course you have Sweetheart, keep telling yourself that.

    Just keep praying to your magic wishing fairy! Maybe one day he'll grant you the courage to stop kowtowing to a non-existent deity in the vain hope that you won't die. I'm terribly sorry, but I've bad news for you... everything dies and there is no after life.

    Deal with it and move on. Stop projecting, get up off your knees and just enjoy life...

  12. #52
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Colfax WA, neat I have a barn and 49 acres - I have 2 horses, 15 chickens - but no more pigs
    Posts
    12,809

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    The story about Pythagoras is probably baseless, as well. Pythagoras himself is notorious for allegedly being inspired by a multitude of foreign cultures, from Zoroastrian Persians to pagan Thracians, so the addition of the Jews is hardly surprising. The legend presumably generated from a passage of Hermippus, who mentioned the connection to the Jews (together with that of the Thracians), in order to highlight the eccentricity of a philosopher he personally disliked. More precisely, he believed that a couple of Pythagoras' bizarre prohibitions (especially, his obsession with blasphemy) originated from the Jews. Then, his account was exploited by Hellenised Jews (like Josephus and perhaps Aristobulus) and Church Fathers, in order to reinforce their special narrative:

    The former desired to increase the prestige of the Biblical teachings, by associating them with the highly esteemed Greek culture (or even by claiming it as the original source), while the latter's goal was to protect the intellectual integrity of Christianity, by again tying it with the admired philosophical thinking of the ancient Greeks. Overall, I am sure that Greek philosophy was influenced by a variety of Near Eastern civilisations, which could explain certain similarities with the Jewish religion, as they may even share the same original source (e.g. Egyptian priestly wisdoms). That being said, I doubt the Jewish role was prominent, at least in comparison to Egypt, Mesopotamia and Anatolia. If you are interested in the subject, you should read Bar-Kochva's work over the subject, which is almost entirely available for free.
    It should be noted also that by the day Josephus and Clement they are more or less talking about variations of neo platonic thought. Sure name drop Pythagoras as you will. But I pretty sure you a can't a Jewish basis for say Democritus and his views on atomic theory or that nature of the universe. Same really goes for Epicurean school.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  13. #53

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    'Course you have Sweetheart, keep telling yourself that.

    Just keep praying to your magic wishing fairy! Maybe one day he'll grant you the courage to stop kowtowing to a non-existent deity in the vain hope that you won't die. I'm terribly sorry, but I've bad news for you... everything dies and there is no after life.

    Deal with it and move on. Stop projecting, get up off your knees and just enjoy life...
    Cringe.

  14. #54
    Praefectus
    Citizen

    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    6,125

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    I would say that from a historical perspective, Gill's exegesis is partially correct. Although, the issue is not about marriage or who may become a Jew.....
    Thank you for the correction, it seems Infidel and basics were correct. Good to have my ignorance enlightened.

    If I may change tack, there's a stream of thought in the OT about marriage to foreign women (starting with Canaanite in Deuteronomy) but latterly extended to all non-Jews) that Ruth seems designed to contradict. In any case the broader point stands that there' s a lot of contradictions in the Bible that only blind faith can ignore.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Cyclops,

    Referal is quite different from exact repetition yet there is no doubt Jesus uses living water as a reference to Himself just as the Scriptures say. He is the living water of both Old and New Covenants. ..
    There is no scripture about water coming out of a believers belly. Either jesus is mistakemn about Scripture, or Scripture is incomplete.

    I just Googled another one, Like 4:17, where Jesus reads the Septuagint Isaiah (use by Orthodox and Catholics) not the Masoretic one used by Protestants. Which one is true? The KJV does not have the verse about blindness at that point in Isaiah but it does in Luke where Isaiah is recited from a scroll. Why is Jesus reading the Catholic and not the KJV version, in the KJV? Was he secretly a Catholic all along? Or maybe the KJV compilers made a simple error. After all, they were only human.

    Copied by hand over many thousands of years, the Bible is full of human errors. Its also full of beautiful faith like yours my friend, but I don't think the writers were perfect.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  15. #55
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Netherlands
    Posts
    8,659

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    It migth be interesting to explore a concrete example, slavery. What is truth does the Bible tell us about it?

    In the ancient middle-east and mediterranean civilizations, the concept of slavery itself was rarely questioned.

    When Roman writers address the morality of slavery, they do not question the rigth or wrong of slavery itself. Instead they address what it means to be 'a good master': how he should reward or punish the actions of his slaves.

    The most 'enlightened' view is for masters not to treat slaves as completely disposable, but basically as people on trial towards future manumission (which was by no means an end to subservience to / independence from a former master).

    I've had a bit of a search, admittedly no more, what the Bible might have to say about it. I have not found anything that points to a paradigm shift regarding slavery in the Bible.

    In a time when slavery itself was unquestioned a profoundly clear and unambiguous denunciation would have been required to make people question something one would otherwise perhaps not even be capable of questioning (such is the nature of paradigms that alternatives only appear feasible in hindsight).

    So, what truth are we to derive from the bible regarding the morality of slavery? Is it ok in the eyes of God? If not, would that not require us to believe that God hid messages in the bible that even those who recorded His words remained wholly oblivious (and continued to sin because of it) only for them to be discovered a few centuries ago? How does this work?
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  16. #56
    Diocle's Avatar Comes Limitis
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Amon Amarth
    Posts
    12,534

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    There are three types of people in the world that can be said to make up the world and these are those that consider the Bible to be the inerrant word of God, those that cling to the belief that it is optional, and those that just don't believe in it at all. The statement I have just made comes out of the Bible so in that it is quite inerrant. Strangely it is the most sought after book when stress is most apparent, why? Indeed it is even most sought after today by peoples who were denied it in the past so what is it about it that makes it so powerful a read?
    Because as Iliad, Odyssey, or even the Epic of Gilgamesh, the Bible is a great book, and great books have their own life, they survive time and space, I like to consider them part of what the French Annales School of historical writings named "longue durée" (long term history), that is, historical phenomena"beyond, or beneath, the cycles and structural crises, .. old attitudes of thought and action, resistant frameworks dying hard, at times against all logic."

  17. #57
    basics's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Scotland, UK.
    Posts
    9,028

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Commodus1V,

    I didn't come to Christ because of any brain washing rather by the little I had read from a KJV I had mysteriously become the owner of. It was at that time I began to have visions and dreams which I couldn't understand until they played out much later. As a child I believed there was a God because my mother told me there was, her pronouncements being that He was watching me whenever I was caught doing wrong and thast was about my level of knowledge then. I remember how on a Sunday being sent to Sunday school with one old penny and two ship halfpennies, the penny for the church and the half pennies for foreign aid, I would put one halfpenny into the one collection and the other into the other plate leaving me with one whole penny to buy two toffee balls from the local shop. Boy did I have a lot of chewing to do before I got home because had mu mum known my backside would have been stinging. You know I can't even remember one lesson from these times although I can still remember my Sunday school teacher's name.

    At nineteen I got my girlfriend pregnant and we secretly got married at Gretna Green by a registrar and over the anvil before I told my parents. We became church goers and I had to be sprinkled to get our boy Christened as they call it. During that time of my life never once did I hear the Gospel inside that church nor did I have a Bible to read of it. Well, after a few years and tons of hours building a Napoleonic army and opposition I got involved with another female who had three sons. My wife left me and so I set up home with that woman. This was in a brand new house so to keep my military stuff from their hands I put all my Nap books into the loft. This arrangement didn't work out so getting myself another house I went up to the loft without light to get my books and the strange thing happened for into my hands out came a KJV which to this day I haven't a clue as to how it got there but I took it anyway. It wasn't her's as she was an atheist so how did it get there? Once in my new place I started flicking through it and that was when the dreams and visions started.

    Having two ex's in the same vicinity was not good and so I accepted the franchise for a toy shop up in Elgin and found a home in Hopeman nearby. The world's certainly a small place for the guy who owned the local garage came from the same area my mother came from and so we established a friendship which was going to have life changing events for me. He dared me to go to his church and I accepted. For the first time I heard the Gospel and everything that minister said seemed to point straight at me to such an extent that I pinned John to the wall later demanding to know what he had told that man about me. He hadn't spoken to him but I couldn't get it out of my head how he knew so much about me so I went back again and again till one evening I was on my knees appealing to God to sort me out. I'll never forget the warmth that crept up my body in those moments and being a victim of ankalosing spondilytus where I had to take pain killers every day, that night I slept like a baby without them. Next morning at work one of my girls noticed that not once did I utter a curse and I haven't since. There is much more to tell but that for later. That is how I met with God and His Saviour Jesus Christ.

  18. #58

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Commodus1V,

    I didn't come to Christ because of any brain washing rather by the little I had read from a KJV I had mysteriously become the owner of. It was at that time I began to have visions and dreams which I couldn't understand until they played out much later. As a child I believed there was a God because my mother told me there was, her pronouncements being that He was watching me whenever I was caught doing wrong and thast was about my level of knowledge then. I remember how on a Sunday being sent to Sunday school with one old penny and two ship halfpennies, the penny for the church and the half pennies for foreign aid, I would put one halfpenny into the one collection and the other into the other plate leaving me with one whole penny to buy two toffee balls from the local shop. Boy did I have a lot of chewing to do before I got home because had mu mum known my backside would have been stinging. You know I can't even remember one lesson from these times although I can still remember my Sunday school teacher's name.

    At nineteen I got my girlfriend pregnant and we secretly got married at Gretna Green by a registrar and over the anvil before I told my parents. We became church goers and I had to be sprinkled to get our boy Christened as they call it. During that time of my life never once did I hear the Gospel inside that church nor did I have a Bible to read of it. Well, after a few years and tons of hours building a Napoleonic army and opposition I got involved with another female who had three sons. My wife left me and so I set up home with that woman. This was in a brand new house so to keep my military stuff from their hands I put all my Nap books into the loft. This arrangement didn't work out so getting myself another house I went up to the loft without light to get my books and the strange thing happened for into my hands out came a KJV which to this day I haven't a clue as to how it got there but I took it anyway. It wasn't her's as she was an atheist so how did it get there? Once in my new place I started flicking through it and that was when the dreams and visions started.

    Having two ex's in the same vicinity was not good and so I accepted the franchise for a toy shop up in Elgin and found a home in Hopeman nearby. The world's certainly a small place for the guy who owned the local garage came from the same area my mother came from and so we established a friendship which was going to have life changing events for me. He dared me to go to his church and I accepted. For the first time I heard the Gospel and everything that minister said seemed to point straight at me to such an extent that I pinned John to the wall later demanding to know what he had told that man about me. He hadn't spoken to him but I couldn't get it out of my head how he knew so much about me so I went back again and again till one evening I was on my knees appealing to God to sort me out. I'll never forget the warmth that crept up my body in those moments and being a victim of ankalosing spondilytus where I had to take pain killers every day, that night I slept like a baby without them. Next morning at work one of my girls noticed that not once did I utter a curse and I haven't since. There is much more to tell but that for later. That is how I met with God and His Saviour Jesus Christ.
    Having visions and dreams as well as the asserted 'direct contact', true or not (in the sense of being a legitimate God-given result or a mindset based on perceived guilt and relief at having a moral purpose that sits right), is a decidedly unusual case (though I imagine not so much in the latter, but digressing) and does not represent the broad spectrum that is otherwise possible for most people who would be considered 'the masses' while still considering themselves Christians. Thus, I appreciate the effort, but what you have written is decidedly out of scope for what I posted.

    People can meet God for a great many different ways and come to see the Bible as truth in very different ways, and if anything, you have contributed to my point - it is not any compelling argument or writing that won you over, but 'supernatural' elements that cannot be proven nor disproven, things that you must simply handle of your own accord as nobody else can either take that away from you or be faulted for being skeptical. So long as that is a loop where you do not force it upon others, you are completely free to do as you do. If the last sentence makes you weary, posting in a politically leaned debate section on a Total War site does not come close to my definition. If there's someone you want to convince, it would be TheLeft, as he is the one who would insinuate you as delusional from the first paragraph. And yet, I don't think that effort would go far.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    It migth be interesting to explore a concrete example, slavery. What is truth does the Bible tell us about it?

    In the ancient middle-east and mediterranean civilizations, the concept of slavery itself was rarely questioned.

    When Roman writers address the morality of slavery, they do not question the rigth or wrong of slavery itself. Instead they address what it means to be 'a good master': how he should reward or punish the actions of his slaves.

    The most 'enlightened' view is for masters not to treat slaves as completely disposable, but basically as people on trial towards future manumission (which was by no means an end to subservience to / independence from a former master).

    I've had a bit of a search, admittedly no more, what the Bible might have to say about it. I have not found anything that points to a paradigm shift regarding slavery in the Bible.

    In a time when slavery itself was unquestioned a profoundly clear and unambiguous denunciation would have been required to make people question something one would otherwise perhaps not even be capable of questioning (such is the nature of paradigms that alternatives only appear feasible in hindsight).

    So, what truth are we to derive from the bible regarding the morality of slavery? Is it ok in the eyes of God? If not, would that not require us to believe that God hid messages in the bible that even those who recorded His words remained wholly oblivious (and continued to sin because of it) only for them to be discovered a few centuries ago? How does this work?
    I imagine there's a few possibilities to brainstorm.
    - There's nothing inherently wrong about slavery in the fundamentalist Christian perspective, in some form or another; rather, such is a construct of modern social views
    - The Bible 'forgot' about the matter
    - It's not important enough to comment on
    - The Bible was written by men and men's words of what was considered good form at the time
    - The Bible is not as encompassing as people think

  19. #59

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post

    I imagine there's a few possibilities to brainstorm.
    - There's nothing inherently wrong about slavery in the fundamentalist Christian perspective, in some form or another; rather, such is a construct of modern social views
    - The Bible 'forgot' about the matter
    - It's not important enough to comment on
    - The Bible was written by men and men's words of what was considered good form at the time
    - The Bible is not as encompassing as people think
    Is the correct answer. Christ did not preach a rebellious secular ideology which was concerned with the deconstruction of irreligious institutions; Matthew 22:21 is fairly explicit on the necessity of the separation between the spiritual and the temporal.

  20. #60
    Himster's Avatar Praeses
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Dublin, The Peoples Republic of Ireland
    Posts
    9,709

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    We know the Bible is true because God says so. We know God is always correct because the Bible says so. We know this claim from the Bible is accurate because God confirms it. We can rely on God's confirmation here because the Bible asserts that God cannot err. We can support this Biblical claim thanks to the very nature of its author, who is an all knowing God. God can be relied upon as an all knowing God because he is described as such in the Bible. The Bible's accuracy is confirmed by God's assertion that it is so. God's authority on this matter is established by the Bible. We know the Bible is true because God says so. We know God is always correct because the Bible says so. We know this claim from the Bible is accurate because God confirms it. We can rely on God's confirmation here because the Bible asserts that God cannot err. We can support this Biblical claim thanks to the very nature of its author, who is an all knowing God. God can be relied upon as an all knowing God because he described as such in the Bible. The Bible's accuracy is confirmed by God's assertion that it is so. God's authority on this matter is established by the Bible. We know the Bible is true because God says so. We know God is always correct because the Bible says so. We know this claim from the Bible is accurate because God confirms it. We can rely on God's confirmation here because the Bible asserts that God cannot err. We can support this Biblical claim thanks to the very nature of its author, who is an all knowing God. God can be relied upon as an all knowing God because he described as such in the Bible. The Bible's accuracy is confirmed by God's assertion that it is so. God's authority on this matter is established by the Bible.
    We know the Bible is true because God says so. We know God is always correct because the Bible says so. We know this claim from the Bible is accurate because God confirms it. We can rely on God's confirmation here because the Bible asserts that God cannot err. We can support this Biblical claim thanks to the very nature of its author, who is an all knowing God. God can be relied upon as an all knowing God because he described as such in the Bible. The Bible's accuracy is confirmed by God's assertion that it is so. God's authority on this matter is established by the Bible. We know the Bible is true because God says so. We know God is alwasy correct because the Bible says so. We know this claim from the Bible is accurate because God confirms it. We can rely on God's confirmation here because the Bible asserts that God cannot err. We can support this Biblical claim thanks to the very nature of its author, who is an all knowing God. God can be relied upon as an all knowing God because he described as such in the Bible. The Bible's accuracy is confirmed by God's assertion that it is so. God's authority on this matter is established by the Bible. The Bible's authority is established by God which is established by the Bible which is established by God which is established by the Bible which is established by God which is established by the Bible which is established by God which is established by the Bible which is established by God which is established by the Biblewhich is established by God which is established by the Bible which is established by God which is established by the Bible which is established by God which is established by the Bible which is established by God which is established by the Bible which is established by God which is established by the Bible...
    The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves, but wiser people are full of doubts.
    -Betrand Russell

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •