How true is the Bible?

[Akar]

But then who wants to argue over something as wonderful as the lame made whole, or the blind to see, even the dead being raised?

When it's a story presented with zero factual evidence then yeah, let's argue about it. Are you saying we shouldn't argue over things that sound cool and wonderful?

Today when they happen it is called unscientific

Well first of all they don't happen today. And when they "do" happen today, they are called unscientific because you provide zero evidence whatsoever to back up your claim.

[basics]

When it's a story presented with zero factual evidence then yeah, let's argue about it. Are you saying we shouldn't argue over things that sound cool and wonderful?

Well first of all they don't happen today. And when they "do" happen today, they are called unscientific because you provide zero evidence whatsoever to back up your claim.

Akar.

When dozens if not hundreds were present when the miracles were performed and written of that is hardly zero evidence. Yes, they do happen today, it's just that you don't want to believe that nor be convinced by someone else that they do happen even today.

[Common Soldier]

I would concur with Akar. The miracles exist only in the bible. Neither the Roman's nor the Jews were some kind of modern Atheists by an large or at all. The laundry list of miracles is quite large one would think it would play in a report sent to Rome more then just some jew we crucified as rebel or got Josephus to say more than mah. Given the inconsistency of the OT and its absoultly implausible claims its hard to buy the NT.

Actually, the Jews indirectly supported the idea that Jesus performed miracles. There are characters in the Talmud named Yeshu (believed by be a varient of Yeshua, Jesus' name in Hebrew). One was Yeshu the Sorcerer who was hanged on the eve of Passover. Thr details don't quite match up with those of Jesus, since Yeshu the Sorcer only had 5 discple, and his death occurred during the Hasmonian kingdom which ended in 63 BC. But the Talmud was written 500 years after Jesus' tims, so the facts could have gotten distortdd. The fact Yeshu was charged with sorcery is an acknowdgement that he could do wonderous deeds which we might consider miracles. In the debates wirh early Christians, the Jews sid not deny Jesus could perform wonderous dedds, but ascribe deeds to magic or demons, rather miracles performed by God. But is still an indirect support outside the New Testament that it was popularly believed Jesus performed what we moderns might consider miracles. Note, the fact that ancient people believed Jesus performed miracles doesn't mean Jesus actually did, only that people thought he did.


The early pagan critic of Christianity Celsus accused Jesus of having studied and practice sorcery in Egypt. Again, this charge is acknowledging Jesus was performig what we might consider miracles, only ascribing them to magic. Many people today truly believe that modern faith healers perform miracles, so it would not be suprising if ancient people thought Jesus performed miracles.

Note, many of the illnesses Jesus healed could have had a psychosomatic cause - demonic possesion, blindness, lameness. We all know the power of the placebo.effect, and it is not out of the realm of possibility that a very charismatic person could achieve somenhealing effect through a very powerful placebo effect. The Gospels repeatedly strength that faith that Jesus could heal was an important of the miracle. Also, thr Christians had a reputation of


As for the Romans, they believed in magic, so a wonder worker might not have seem as wonderous to them as it does to us. Also, many of Jesus miracled were performed in rural Galilee, and relorts of miracles might havs been just discounted by Roman officials. Then too, Jesus whole career lasted only around 3 years. By the first reports of Jesus wonder doings had reached Rome, Jesus wouls have been dead and yesterday's n

[Akar]

Akar.

When dozens if not hundreds were present when the miracles were performed and written of that is hardly zero evidence. Yes, they do happen today, it's just that you don't want to believe that nor be convinced by someone else that they do happen even today.

They were only present according to the same accounting that records the miracle. None of those witnesses went on and wrote their own testimony of what they saw. If I say there were 500 other people who saw the same thing as a I did, but I'm the only one who's actually testifying, that makes no difference than If I was the only one who saw it.

[Common Soldier]

They were only present according to the same accounting that records the miracle. None of those witnesses went on and wrote their own testimony of what they saw. If I say there were 500 other people who saw the same thing as a I did, but I'm the only one who's actually testifying, that makes no difference than If I was the only one who saw it.

Yes it does make a difference. If what you wrote the other 500 disagreed with, they are far moee likely to write their own account, or word would get back to a 3rd party who would report the fact. Indirect evixence we have is that nobody was disputing Jesus was performing miracles, not even pagan critics of Christianity or the Jews, they just atributed the miracles to other causes like sorcery. They could have challenged the claims the miracle took place, but none of the critics of Christianity used that tactic. Note, the fact that people believed Jesus did miracles does not mean he actually did. The question whther miracles were genuine or not is beyond the realm of the historian by its very nature. All the historian can answer is whether people believed the miracles happened or not.

[Cookiegod]

"Faith" means belief without evidence and is anathema to science. I'm likely to start believing miracles once there is actual evidence for them.

You do realise that in the very moment there's a scientific explanation for a miracle, it per definition ceases to be one?

Also, don't pretend that you are all rational and scientific. Ain't no one here who doesn't have unsupported beliefs and paradigms building his world view on.

[Akar]

You do realise that in the very moment there's a scientific explanation for a miracle, it per definition ceases to be one?

That doesn't really change anything about what I said does it?

Also, don't pretend that you are all rational and scientific. Ain't no one here who doesn't have unsupported beliefs and paradigms building his world view on.

I'm not out her spewing these alleged unsupported beliefs and paradigms out on the internet for everyone to see am I? Also, which unsupported beliefs and paradigms have I built my world view on, oh wise one?

[basics]

Akar,

We have a lovely lady in our church whose family last year were called by the doctors to her bedside as they didn't think she would last the night. She had terminal cancer yet today she is back at church, going messages and driving as well. She's in her eighties as is her husband, the pair once having been missionaries abroad. The only thing that bothers her is that she still has to travel to Aberdeen for chemo. Their faith despite all else is what keeps her going not forgetting all the prayers we said for her and her husband who also has skin cancer. When I had my cancer they were there at the church praying for me and the other three ladies who have cancer as well. One could say that as a small church, some forty plus members, we're a congregation of crocks yet the thing is that we are bound together in Jesus Christ whose wonderful healing power keeps us going. So, evidence is one thing but experience is superior something we are not short of.

[Cookiegod]

That doesn't really change anything about what I said does it?

It does make your request somewhat unreasonable.

It's like asking someone to prove Schroedinger's cat by opening the box.

[basics]

They were only present according to the same accounting that records the miracle. None of those witnesses went on and wrote their own testimony of what they saw. If I say there were 500 other people who saw the same thing as a I did, but I'm the only one who's actually testifying, that makes no difference than If I was the only one who saw it.

Akar,

Mathew, John, James and Jude all wrote of His miracles. Mark knew of them from his mother who followed Jesus and Luke investigated the claims by interviweing people like them who had seen them. Paul was given the ability to perform miracles and his experiences recorded by Titus and Timothy. Peter who himself performed miracles also recorded from Pentecost the works that Jesus Christ did and not only that many letters were sent by him and James to the new believers who were converted then and had returned to their homelands adding to their numbers as the word was spread. These are records of how the knowledge of Jesus Christ as commanded built across the world. That to me is evidence.

[basics]

Akar,

Today I was back in hospital for another Cystoscopy procedure which showed my cancer has still gone. The scar is still there and thankfully the cancer has not returned. Was it a miracle? Many will say it was just the skill of the medics yet the fact that I went through it with all my other ailments my body having to cope with for me is nothing short of being miraculous. I don't have the witnesses that Jesus had when He performed His miracles but I do have the comfort of knowing that many were praying in His name for me and that He is doing for me what He promised in the Scriptures. The experience of doing what the body objects to quite vigorously convinces me that God really does care for His people just as His word tells. When I look at the goings on in the world today it is so sad to see its decline away from the very Person Who could change things if only the world would turn back to Him but alas the hatred for Him is too strong. Regardless, He is still bringing people to Himself just as is written. Could it be that you might be one of them?

[PointOfViewGun]

Akar,

Today I was back in hospital for another Cystoscopy procedure which showed my cancer has still gone. The scar is still there and thankfully the cancer has not returned. Was it a miracle? Many will say it was just the skill of the medics yet the fact that I went through it with all my other ailments my body having to cope with for me is nothing short of being miraculous. I don't have the witnesses that Jesus had when He performed His miracles but I do have the comfort of knowing that many were praying in His name for me and that He is doing for me what He promised in the Scriptures. The experience of doing what the body objects to quite vigorously convinces me that God really does care for His people just as His word tells. When I look at the goings on in the world today it is so sad to see its decline away from the very Person Who could change things if only the world would turn back to Him but alas the hatred for Him is too strong. Regardless, He is still bringing people to Himself just as is written. Could it be that you might be one of them?

Exactly. God weeps seeing that after creating humanity with the capacity of intelligently complex thoughts that made medicine possible people still say more about uttering words that have no effect on God's own creation. That is hatred of him indeed. What a shame.

[basics]

PointOfViewGun,

Do I sense a touch of sarcasm here? There isn't a thing that man has discovered that wasn't put in place by God for him to discover. Every breath you take, every thought you have, is already known to Him. His weeping is part ly to reveal His distaste and disgust at how man has swallowed the lie that they can be just like God, that they don't need Him, and we now see just how deeply and far that has become. Perhaps the biggest mistake man makes is in believing the Bible is about men when in fact it is all about God. Man cannot see that this story is already completed and that when Jesus comes back His good pleasure will be fulfilled and our side of the story ended.

[Akar]

So you had a load of doctors and specialists taking care of you and managing your vitals and what not and your only take away from that is to give god credit and not the doctors? How disrespectful and insulting to the people who just saved your life. You may as well slap them in the face if you're going to be so ungrateful. Unbelievable...

[basics]

So you had a load of doctors and specialists taking care of you and managing your vitals and what not and your only take away from that is to give god credit and not the doctors? How disrespectful and insulting to the people who just saved your life. You may as well slap them in the face if you're going to be so ungrateful. Unbelievable...

Akar,

I hate to say this but what an ignorant fellow you are as you assume too much which is not true, why? Because as usual you imagine what your hateful heart leads you to believe rather than know my interaction with all the doctors and nurses I have been involved with. Apart from one, who reminds me of you in a certain way, all the others were absolutely great to me. That they wouldn't be doctors or nurses but for God seems to evade you but then that is not unusual for you. Oh, and just for the record you happen to be you because of God, blinded by hatred so that you cannot see the saving grace of God in Jesus Christ. Try thinking before you post.

[PointOfViewGun]

Akar,

I hate to say this but what an ignorant fellow you are as you assume too much which is not true, why? Because as usual you imagine what your hateful heart leads you to believe rather than know my interaction with all the doctors and nurses I have been involved with. Apart from one, who reminds me of you in a certain way, all the others were absolutely great to me. That they wouldn't be doctors or nurses but for God seems to evade you but then that is not unusual for you. Oh, and just for the record you happen to be you because of God, blinded by hatred so that you cannot see the saving grace of God in Jesus Christ. Try thinking before you post.

What you're typing there is hatred towards God. You're belittling its interaction with you. Those nurses and doctors, as creations of God as you say, were its instruments. Yet, you bypass them all and try to flatter God as if that will grant membership of heaven. It won't. God hates such statements of vanity.

[basics]

What you're typing there is hatred towards God. You're belittling its interaction with you. Those nurses and doctors, as creations of God as you say, were its instruments. Yet, you bypass them all and try to flatter God as if that will grant membership of heaven. It won't. God hates such statements of vanity.

PointIfViewGun,

And who is belittling God by calling Him an " it "? My path to heaven began the night God put me on my knees and revealed Jesus Christ to me. That night I was born again of the Spirit of God and so it is not to belittle Him by giving Him the honour and glory that's due Him. There isn't a person born whom God has not got a destiny for so doctors and nurses are no different from anyone else. In fact one of the nurses who attended me is also a born again Christian and was before my salvation. Ask her Who comes first in her life and you'll get the same answer, why? Because her future is as secure as mine. When God said, " Thou shalt have no other gods before Me, " He meant it because He knows how man's mind works. Man only thinks he's as good as God but then does the clay tell the Potter how it is to be made or is it otherwise?

Now, there is no doubt that at this time and at any time doctors and nurses play an enormous role in our lives and if anyone has been in hospital as often as I have one would be nothing but appreciative of the work they do especially during this pandemic. That said, are our drivers, postmen, store workers, police and anyone else out there in the frontline any less important? Has it stopped me and my wife collecting messages for others, us being in the most vulnerable categories? No it hasn't because we do what we have to do just like anyone else would for us should we ask. I have never left a hospital yet without thanking God as well as my carers in the medical field. If it is vanity that drives me then I am guilty.

[Demokritos]

I think the Bible is true in a symbolic sense at best. If you live in a (divinely) complex world and must explain it to someone who has difficult grasping complex things (like a child), then you must simplify the explanation in order to make sure something useful gets through to that someone. And the authors of the Bible had to adapt the message primarily to the mindset of the people living at the time of writing, whose level of understanding was quite different than the scientific understanding of today. For example, maybe it's true God has created the universe as we know it today, but he's intentionally used billions of man-years to do it (because there's a divine point in doing so), which would coincide with current scientific theories about it. But in the Bible this passage of time must be presented in a way that was easier to understand at the time of writing, like "seven days" or something. Any reader could then grasp that as "seven man-days" while in reality it is "seven God-days", and a "God-day" is equivalent to an "aeon" of man-time. In such a way, that what is written in the Bible could be both true and not true.

[Adamat]

Such an interpretation of the bible would be an entirely post-hoc rationalization of what it actually says. It'd be akin to trying to show how Aristotle's natural philosophy predicted quantum mechanics, because you personally really like Aristotle or something.

[conon394]

Such an interpretation of the bible would be an entirely post-hoc rationalization of what it actually says

Well yes but seeing as the NT, Islam, and the LDS and others are all that as well - it works for lots of people. And who knows some of them might be right or wrong. I'm content on the fence.