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Thread: How true is the Bible?

  1. #21

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    PointOfViewGun,

    I can see your reasoning if only that were true but it's not true concerning British churches because so many are up for sale due to lack of belief. If people were that indoctrinated surely there would be a demand for more buildings not less? That said, why would anyone want a Bible at all?

    Bible Sales Statistics

    Between 1815 and 1975, it was estimated that there could have been 5 billion Bibles printed. In 1995, one version of the bible, the Good News version that is copyrighted by the Bible Societies, had sold nearly 18 million copies. There’s no doubt about it – the Bible is one of the world’s best-selling books. It also proves that God’s Word is a moneymaker for today’s Christian publishers.

    The best selling and fastest growing version of the Bible in the United States is the NIV.
    82%. That’s the percentage of people who regularly read the Bible who will reach for a King James Version before any other.
    There are more than 168,000 Bibles that are sold or given to others in the United States every day.
    20 million. That’s the number of Bibles that are sold each year in the United States. That’s more than double the amount that was sold annually in the 1950s.
    The Gideon’s International distributed 59,460,000 Bibles worldwide last year. That’s more than 100 Bibles per minute.
    Zondervan, a leading Bible publisher, has more than 350 different versions of the Bible that are in print right now.
    The percentage of Americans who own at least 1 Bible, whether it was given to them or purchased: 92%. Two-thirds of owners, regardless of religious affiliation, say that the Bible holds the meaning of life.
    The average American Christian owns 9 Bibles and wants to purchase more. For this reason, the Bible is actually excluded from book bestsellers lists because it would always be on top.
    1,300 translations of the Bible are in new languages.
    There are 40 authors in the Bible.

    Clearly there is something about that book that people cannot resist, perhaps the biggest reason being where are we going at death because that is what the Bible is all about.
    No, not really, they wouldn't seek churches, especially since you were talking about WWI and WWII era. Those people are no longer in dominance. It's harder to indoctrinate the new generations. Mein Kampf was also one of the best sellers at various points of time and location. So, it doesn't really make up a good argument. Essentially, it's made into a pissing contest. Truth has nothing to do with a pissing contest.

    If you're gonna copy paste from the Internet at least reference it. These are all nice but unreferenced statistics but they don't really address what I've been saying. Though they kinda point at the same points that I made without intentionally doing so. A lot of those numbers come from others distributing Bible, not people going out to buy a Bible.
    The Armenian Issue

  2. #22
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    How true is the Bible? Its a pretty simple question for such an important collection of documents. The answer will depend on if you are a believer (and the answer will vary from system to system) or are attempting to understand the Bible as a real-world document, not a message from God.

    Id sit fair to say Basics you consider the Bible the unerring word of God?

    I'd say the majority of the Bible is a genuine attempt to approach God. If you think it does not err you need to account for the numerous contradictions. Of course if you are just heare to preach I'd remind you of the ToS. Its impolite to be dishonest, and preach where you've agreed not too.

    The Bible has obviously been edited our the wazoo, but I think a lot of changes were made so it would "make sense" they weren't just altering words for fun. There are some clear examples of forgery, where later writers have added false prophecies under the names of ancient respected prophets. Mostly though editors like the Deuteronomist and the Priestly writers meant to convey their truth and find it in older documents, eliminating embarrassing polytheist beliefs that so many people in the Bible clearly held (eg Abraham, comfortable with human sacrifice and polytheism is retconned as the prime Monotheist). In the Bible truth is relative, and has to be curated and updated. "Thou shalt not kill", except when its Amalekite women and children, then God sees it was good.

    Lets ask Jesus. In John 18:38 Pilate asks Jesus "What is truth?", but Jesus does not answer. In John 14:6 the same man declares "I am the way, the truth and the life: no one comes to the father except through me". Jesus does not always proclaim the truth, and even gets evasive about it with Pilate. Truth is clearly not for everyone. This line is sometimes used in a sneaky way by fundamentalists, when the Bible is clearly in error they declare "unbelievers are unable to understand the true meaning", as cowardly a fake argument as ever saw the light of day.

    There are multiple examples from the Old Testament of people who walk with the Lord, or ascend into Heaven without Jesus: his way is a new way, and not the only one in the Bible. While Jesus does quote Scripture he sometimes cites verses unknown to the modern OT. Its quite clear that Jesus' truth does not coincide directly with the Old Testament, and its fair to say that for Christians the OT is "less true" than the NT.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  3. #23

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    Christians have murdered and commited acts of genocide with a clear conscience, justified by their interpretation. You yourself have advocated the destruction of Iran with a clear conscience.

    This is the problem with christians, they all have their own interpretation and are convinced they are right.
    That's a problem with a significant proportion of humanity - not with "christians [sic]" specifically. Supposing that self-righteousness, hubris or zealotry are traits which are unique to, or even uniquely associated with, Christianity is largely baseless. There are examples of institutional actors across the racial, religious and ideological spectrum who've committed, with a seemingly clear conscience, murder and genocide.
    Last edited by Cope; June 28, 2019 at 08:28 AM.



  4. #24
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    No, not really, they wouldn't seek churches, especially since you were talking about WWI and WWII era. Those people are no longer in dominance. It's harder to indoctrinate the new generations. Mein Kampf was also one of the best sellers at various points of time and location. So, it doesn't really make up a good argument. Essentially, it's made into a pissing contest. Truth has nothing to do with a pissing contest.

    If you're gonna copy paste from the Internet at least reference it. These are all nice but unreferenced statistics but they don't really address what I've been saying. Though they kinda point at the same points that I made without intentionally doing so. A lot of those numbers come from others distributing Bible, not people going out to buy a Bible.
    PointOfViewGun,

    Whether bought individually or in job lots is immaterial since all have to be paid for so that doesn't change anything as far as the statistics are concerned. Most of the job lots are going into countries where the people have never had the chance to have one never mind reading it and the demand is huge.

    Cyclops,

    Yes, I do regard the Bible as the innerrant word of God. The Dead Sea Scrolls have authenticated the Old Covenant and the witers in the New Covenant authenticate its veracity because they were eye witnesses to all that was important enough for us to know. The thing is that Jesus Himself authenticated the Old Covenant as did His writers of the New. The exceptions were James, Jesus' brother, and Saul of Tarsus to whom revelation was to come a little later both being before that strict Jews who went through conversion after the hundred and twenty odd at Pentecost.

    Your statement about the discourse between Pilate and Jesus does you a disservice as Jesus answered Pilate before that sentence you mention saying, " Thou sayest I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice." Pilate then asked Him, " What is truth?" He then preceded to tell the Sanhedrin that he found no fault in Him. " In Him I find no fault at all." He then offered to spare Jesus if they would accept Barrabas but they wanted Christ and so fulfilling what was written for centuries before they had Him put to death.

    As far as contradictions are concerning Scripture there are none, why? Because the Holy Spirit cannot deny Himself or the truth and so we find in Scripture Him leaving the writers who were witnesses to describe things as they remembered them without tarnishing the truth. What would the world think if He had every writing exactly the same? The cry would be a carve up. The message is always the same no matter what Bible one reads but the one that crowns the lot is the KJV. Only Enoch and Elijah were translated into heaven but rest assured that both believed that the " seed " Jesus Christ would pay for their sins at the cross because there is no other way into heaven but by Jesus Christ. As Noah and Enoch were contemporaries it could be that Enoch was taken up because only the line of Noah was to see out the flood and Enoch by that was in danger of being destroyed as all the others. That is my understanding.

    epic1c_fail,

    I would of course disagree with your assumption. Yes, men of God have sinned dreadfully as their stories unfold but the great thing is that there is only one sin that is unforgiveable and clearly these individuals were pronounced righteous before God meaning that Christ would pay for their sin in time. Since the crucifixion covers all time it means that born again believers can and do fall into sin after they have been saved but the blood of Christ covered even these.

  5. #25

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    That's a problem with a significant proportion of humanity - not with "christians [sic]" specifically. Supposing that self-righteousness, hubris or zealotry are traits which are unique to, or even uniquely associated with, Christianity is largely baseless. There are examples of institutional actors across the racial, religious and ideological spectrum who've committed, with a seemingly clear conscience, murder and genocide.
    There lies the inherent fallacy of the bible. Christians claim it's the word of god and to be followed then cherry pick what they want to follow and claim it's about interpretation. Which interpretation is the true one? If the bible is so great, the word of god, how come so many factions have developed, happily killing each other to prove they are right?

    The bible has been used to justify war, slavery, persecution of homosexuals, pagans and jews. Every time the people doing it claim they are true believers and their actions are right and good.

    I am not claiming that human flaws are the result of the bible but I do propose that the bible and christianity is not some great panacea or guidebook to salvation and a perfect world.

  6. #26

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    There lies the inherent fallacy of the bible. Christians claim it's the word of god and to be followed then cherry pick what they want to follow and claim it's about interpretation. Which interpretation is the true one? If the bible is so great, the word of god, how come so many factions have developed, happily killing each other to prove they are right?

    The bible has been used to justify war, slavery, persecution of homosexuals, pagans and jews. Every time the people doing it claim they are true believers and their actions are right and good.

    I am not claiming that human flaws are the result of the bible but I do propose that the bible and christianity is not some great panacea or guidebook to salvation and a perfect world.
    What has any of this got to do with my post? I'm accusing you of ideological myopia for implying that oppression is uniquely associated with Christianity and/or Scripture. As for your invitation to a theological debate, I will accept it once you give me the impression of being someone who's read any of the arguments against your position ever. Until then, I have no inclination to rebuke points which ought only to be impressive to 6th form students.
    Last edited by Cope; June 30, 2019 at 05:47 PM.



  7. #27
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Cyclops,

    Yes, I do regard the Bible as the innerrant word of God.
    The problem with this is there are so many Bibles. From a faith POV that may be no problem but its a logical one.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    The Dead Sea Scrolls have authenticated the Old Covenant and the witers in the New Covenant authenticate its veracity because they were eye witnesses to all that was important enough for us to know.
    thats no quoite right old chap, some Dead Sea Scrolls actually contradict the received version of scripture.
    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    The thing is that Jesus Himself authenticated the Old Covenant as did His writers of the New. The exceptions were James, Jesus' brother, and Saul of Tarsus to whom revelation was to come a little later both being before that strict Jews who went through conversion after the hundred and twenty odd at Pentecost.
    Jesus quotes scripture not in the Bible. This is a problem as it means either he is wrong or our Bibles are incomplete.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Your statement about the discourse between Pilate and Jesus does you a disservice as Jesus answered Pilate before that sentence you mention saying, " Thou sayest I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice." Pilate then asked Him, " What is truth?" He then preceded to tell the Sanhedrin that he found no fault in Him. " In Him I find no fault at all." He then offered to spare Jesus if they would accept Barrabas but they wanted Christ and so fulfilling what was written for centuries before they had Him put to death.
    Jesus does not answer the question "what is truth?", we agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    As far as contradictions are concerning Scripture there are none, why? Because the Holy Spirit cannot deny Himself or the truth and so we find in Scripture Him leaving the writers who were witnesses to describe things as they remembered them without tarnishing the truth. What would the world think if He had every writing exactly the same? The cry would be a carve up. The message is always the same no matter what Bible one reads but the one that crowns the lot is the KJV. Only Enoch and Elijah were translated into heaven but rest assured that both believed that the " seed " Jesus Christ would pay for their sins at the cross because there is no other way into heaven but by Jesus Christ. As Noah and Enoch were contemporaries it could be that Enoch was taken up because only the line of Noah was to see out the flood and Enoch by that was in danger of being destroyed as all the others. That is my understanding.
    My friend that's a faith perspective, but it defies reason: there are blatant contradictions in the Bible. . If the text says "Moabites cannot be come Jews for ten generations" and later says "King David's grandmother was a Moabite" that's a contradiction: King David is King of the Jews.

    If three gospels say the Last Supper was on Passover Night and one says it was on Passover Eve then there's a lie in at least one of them: it can't be both, unless Jesus held two "last suppers" which would involve more lies. Its a human error to forget the date something happened, and quite understandable: it does not invalidate Jesus' sacrifice if the three Synoptic gospels mixed up the days events happened.

    To my eyes the Bible is a human work about God. It has human errors in it. otherwise God made those silly mistakes. Claiming obvious errors don;'t exist doesn't make your argument plausible.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  8. #28

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    My friend that's a faith perspective, but it defies reason: there are blatant contradictions in the Bible. . If the text says "Moabites cannot be come Jews for ten generations" and later says "King David's grandmother was a Moabite" that's a contradiction: King David is King of the Jews.
    From Gill's exegesis:
    An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the Lord,.... Or marry an Israelitish woman, as Jarchi, and so the Targum of Jonathan,"the male Ammonites and Moabites are not fit to take a wife of the congregation of the Lord;'for the Jews restrain this to men, because it is, as Aben Ezra observes, an Ammonite, not an Ammonitess, a Moabite, not a Moabitess; they allow that females of those nations might be married to Israelites, that is, provided they were proselytesses, as Ruth wasF13:

  9. #29

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Abdülmecid I View Post
    Their correspondence is considered to be forged, since the beginning of the modern era. It's a collection of rhetorical excercises written around the 4th and 5th centuries AD.
    I don't know about this Seneca guy, but I recall reading that Jews were pretty influential in the development of Greek philosophy.

    Jewish Impact on Greek and Western Philosophy? - Jewish History

    Question:

    Is there any evidence that Jewish thought and philosophy had an influence on the Greeks?

    Answer:

    Contemplating your question, I thought that perhaps it would be best to begin by quoting Hermippus of Smyrna, where he accused Pythagoras of doing and saying “things imitating and transferring to himself the opinions of the Jews.”1

    Or perhaps I would quote Clearchus of Soli, who related the following from an encounter between Aristotle and a certain Jew: “He conversed with us and with other philosophical persons, and made a trial of our skill in philosophy; and as he lived with many learned men, he communicated more information than he received from us.”2,3

    1.
    Josephus, Contra Apionem I:22; Origen, Contra Celsum I:15. See also Porphyry of Tyre, Life of Pythagoras 11.

    The full paragraph in Josephus reads: “Then [Hermippus] adds after this the following as well: ‘And Pythagoras used to do and say these things imitating and transferring to himself the opinions of the Jews and the Thracians. For that man is in fact said to have transferred to many of the customs of the Jews to his own philosophy.’” While many scholars are very skeptical in attributing the last sentence (“For that man . . .”) to Hermippus, they see no reason to dispute the attribution of the previous sentence (“And Pythagoras used to . . .”) to him, as it matches the approach he takes toward Pythagoras in surviving passages of his biography (Bezalel Bar-Kochva, The Image of the Jews in Greek Literature: The Hellenistic Period, ch. V).

    2.
    Josephus, ibid.; Clement of Alexandria, The Stromata, Book I, ch. 15. Regardless of whether this incident took place, the fact that a student of Aristotle would write this is an indication of what his impressions of the Jews were.

    It is interesting to note that one of the aims of Clearchus’ work, On Sleep, of which only fragments have survived and from which the above quotation is taken, was to show that Aristotle himself believed in the immortality of the soul—i.e., that the body and soul are separable, and the soul lives on after death, as was the opinion of Aristotle’s teacher Plato—a view that the other students of his vehemently claim he abandoned. See Hans Lewy, “Aristotle and the Jewish Sage According to Clearchus of Soli,” The Harvard Theological Review, Vol. 31, No. 3 (1938), pp. 205–235.

    3.
    The meaning and ramifications of these quotes, as well as the degree of credence given to them, are matters of considerable debate between scholars. However, since the point of this article is about Jewish impact on Western thought in general (beyond the impact on any one specific person or philosophy), their purpose here is to draw attention to them and to the fact that these discussions do exist. It is for this reason that none of the other myths and legends of Greek philosophers having met, or learned from, Jewish sages are cited in this article.
    Supposedly this was a common view among the Church Fathers, like Irenaeus and Clement.

    Clement of Alexandria: Merging Greek and Christian | Medieval History Geek

    One of Clement’s most profound ideas is that the Greeks and the Jews are not wrong, it is just that the Christians are more right. The Greeks and Jews know God, the Greeks through philosophy, the Jews through the Old Testament. Philosophy is a gift to men from God, a means whereby they may come to know him more fully. Greek philosophers, particularly Plato, have been studying God for centuries although Christians are better at it. 5 This is a huge shift from prior authors and apologists who argued not just for their faith but that Jews and Greeks were in error. For Clement philosophy has a great deal of value and even heretics have some usefulness. Keep in mind this is not the same as Clement believing that the worship of the Roman Gods is correct. He is quite explicit that the Roman Gods do not exist, that stories of them are either invented or of evil men. 6 However Clement’s Christianity is more inclusive than that of other early writers and Greek philosophers. Jews, and even heretics are not wholly excluded. Personally, of all of Clement’s ideas I find this one the most interesting. Christianity may have evolved very differently if this had gained acceptance.

    Following the lead of Irenaeus and others, Clement states that the Greeks received their philosophy from other sources. For the most part this is from Moses and the Old Testament. He also believes much of their thought originated with barbarians including Egyptians and Indians. By the time Clement gets done comparing the ideas of the Greek philosophers with concepts from the Old Testament and barbarians, the Greeks are pretty much left without an original thought they can call their own.
    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    There lies the inherent fallacy of the bible. Christians claim it's the word of god and to be followed then cherry pick what they want to follow and claim it's about interpretation. Which interpretation is the true one? If the bible is so great, the word of god, how come so many factions have developed, happily killing each other to prove they are right?

    The bible has been used to justify war, slavery, persecution of homosexuals, pagans and jews. Every time the people doing it claim they are true believers and their actions are right and good.

    I am not claiming that human flaws are the result of the bible but I do propose that the bible and christianity is not some great panacea or guidebook to salvation and a perfect world.
    That's not a fallacy (error in reasoning). The fact that different people interpret something differently doesn't mean that it isn't true, or that people don't believe it to be true. People disagree about all kinds of things, from morality to the shape of the Earth, but it doesn't follow from this that they're all wrong or that morality doesn't exist or that the Earth has no shape. That's just intellectual laziness on your part. Are you a human or an animal? Use your reason and judge which faction is right or wrong. As Chrysostom says:



    So, one Christian says that gay marriage is God's will, another says it's not. How do we know which is correct? Chrystotom is entirely correct that we should appeal to the Scriptures and our reason to discern the truth. Search the Scriptures and see where your reason leads you. Since our goal is to arrive before God with a clean conscience, different people will have different beliefs and be equally justified before God. If another Christian has different beliefs than you, frankly that's none of your business, since he's accountable to God alone. If you believe him to be mistaken, you can seek to persuade him using reason and truth, not coercion. We have no need for artificial unity based in vicarious faith and political submission to one pope or council.

    Last edited by Prodromos; June 30, 2019 at 09:42 PM.
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  10. #30
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Cyclops,

    I'm afraid we don't agree on the talk between Pilate and Jesus because as I said Jesus answered him prior to the remark, " What is truth? " Pilate if you remember was being innundated with demands for His execution based on Him being an enemy of Rome after the original claims weren't working these being that He was blaspheming against the Israelite God. Pilate had his own gods to worry about as well as the words of his wife warning him to be wary of the Jews as she knew there was something different about Jesus. So, for him to retort after the questions were put to Jesus, " What is truth? " seems quite a reasonable response to a man who knew Jesus to be innocent of any of the charges yet still had to deal with Him as well as the angry crowd yelling for Him to be put to death. The, " needs of the many," was the only alternative after they refused his offer of Jesus for Barrabas. Therefore the prophecies were being fulfilled but he never knew about them as he gave in to the mob.

    Yes there are so many Bibles and yet the KJV out publishes the whole lot put together and as I have never read them all or anything like them all, I can only assume that the core message is still the same in each one. That message being that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God upon which the church will be built and is still being built. Now where many churches disagree is in the doctrine they have adopted the main being that " A man must be born again if he is to enter heaven." That is that a person, man or woman, must confess their sins and be adjudged repentant so that the Spirit of God might enter them in the moment of conversion. How does a child converse with God that he or she is repentant never knowing that he or she inherited the nature of sin before they had ever sinned physically? Many systems believe that sprinkling does just that and it is quite contrary to any Bible I know of.

    As for the Dead Sea Scrolls this is what one author has to say. Quote,

    Even though not all of the scrolls are unrolled and translated more than half a century later, the answers are coming clear. The texts are amazingly similar to the documents we already have. The variations are less than two percent, and not a single teaching or doctrine of the Bible we have is altered. Rather than posing a threat to the Christian faith, the Dead Sea Scrolls have, in fact, provided convincing support for the genuineness of God’s revelation as given to us in the Bible. Unquote.

    As for Jesus supposedly quoting Scripture not in the Bible could you quote me chapter and verse?

    Concerning passover night or eve one has to look at the Jewish day which began with the eve or night unlike us who make a day begin in the morning so to say that Passover began by the preparations made in the eve is just the same as saying they began at night. I don't have any problem with that. The Moabite question is answered by Infidel144.

    Now of course the books were written by men but by men inspired by the Holy Spirit so for all intents and purposes these writings are God's word being authenticated by Jesus Christ Who is God.

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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Now of course the books were written by men but by men inspired by the Holy Spirit so for all intents and purposes these writings are God's word being authenticated by Jesus Christ Who is God.
    This jump is where many are lost, sometimes irreversibly, others until such a point that there is better connection between the first part and the provable inspiration being, indeed, the true word.

  12. #32

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Q. How true is the Bible?

    A. It isn't. The vast majority is utter drivel which has been proven conclusively wrong time and again by science. Unless of course you are daft enough to think that talking snakes, and every single animal on earth only living a short walk away from Noah's house is true. Either the whole of the bible is true, or it isn't, which means it's bollocks and should be placed in the fiction section of your local bookshop alongside Harry Potter and other such works.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    Q. How true is the Bible?

    A. It isn't. The vast majority is utter drivel which has been proven conclusively wrong time and again by science. Unless of course you are daft enough to think that talking snakes, and every single animal on earth only living a short walk away from Noah's house is true. Either the whole of the bible is true, or it isn't, which means it's bollocks and should be placed in the fiction section of your local bookshop alongside Harry Potter and other such works.
    Is it not possible for a work to consist of half truths or be sometimes correct and other times not, or end up constantly using such fantastic elements/glazed story conveniences in the presentation of an otherwise more mundane story? Perhaps it is not meant to be taken so literally as you address it.

  14. #34

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    Is it not possible for a work to consist of half truths or be sometimes correct and other times not, or end up constantly using such fantastic elements/glazed story conveniences in the presentation of an otherwise more mundane story?
    Of course it is. But you are talking about the Bible here. The fundamental tenet of the Christian faith, the pillar on which the entire religion is based around. You don't get to pick and choose which bits are true and which are not. Either you believe it all, or you don't.

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    Perhaps it is not meant to be taken so literally as you address it.
    Perhaps they need to add an extra page for the 'all persons fictitious disclaimer at the very beginning of each book then.

    The story, all names, characters, and incidents portrayed in this production are fictitious. No identification with actual persons (living or deceased), places, buildings, and products is intended or should be inferred. No person or entity associated with this book received payment or anything of value, or entered into any agreement, in connection with the depiction of tobacco products. No animals were harmed in the making of this book.
    Besides, who gets to choose which bits are the literal truth and which are not. You?

  15. #35
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    Of course it is. But you are talking about the Bible here. The fundamental tenet of the Christian faith, the pillar on which the entire religion is based around. You don't get to pick and choose which bits are true and which are not. Either you believe it all, or you don't.
    Eh, hasn't stopped people across religions in history from ignoring, interpreting, sidelinging and so on for anything that is incompatible with how they've already decided things are. Take that assessment as you will.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    Perhaps they need to add an extra page for the 'all persons fictitious disclaimer at the very beginning of each book then.
    Refer to above, people will simply interpret that in for themselves. If there's one thing religious books do well, the bible certainly included, it's muddle the waters in this regard just enough for people to defend it that much easier.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    Besides, who gets to choose which bits are the literal truth and which are not. You?
    Sure, why not? Not like anyone else has given me a satisfactory array on the matter. It has always been a matter of interpretation, indeed, individual interpretation if not whatever the Church tells you (the 'easy mode Christianity' where you don't need to really know it to be it). Depending on which branch you subscribe to, this is exactly how it is supposed to be.

    But it isn't the governor of my life, so I don't care to go into that detail.

    The only thing I'm really raising a bone with is the 'all or nothing' take that has never applied in religion save for extremes that just don't win, in general writing (since that attitude would utterly dismiss books you can otherwise derive some good from), and the implied lack of desire to read between the lines, which is certainly necessary in a work of that writing style, age, and amount of translations it's undergone.

  16. #36

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    Eh, hasn't stopped people across religions in history from ignoring, interpreting, sidelinging and so on for anything that is incompatible with how they've already decided things are. Take that assessment as you will.


    Refer to above, people will simply interpret that in for themselves. If there's one thing religious books do well, the bible certainly included, it's muddle the waters in this regard just enough for people to defend it that much easier.


    Sure, why not? Not like anyone else has given me a satisfactory array on the matter. It has always been a matter of interpretation, indeed, individual interpretation if not whatever the Church tells you (the 'easy mode Christianity' where you don't need to really know it to be it). Depending on which branch you subscribe to, this is exactly how it is supposed to be.

    But it isn't the governor of my life, so I don't care to go into that detail.

    The only thing I'm really raising a bone with is the 'all or nothing' take that has never applied in religion save for extremes that just don't win, in general writing (since that attitude would utterly dismiss books you can otherwise derive some good from), and the implied lack of desire to read between the lines, which is certainly necessary in a work of that writing style, age, and amount of translations it's undergone.
    I do find it amusing that so many people who, under normal circumstances, are perfectly capable of nuanced textual interpretations, suddenly, and as if by magic, lose this ability when discussing Scripture. It's like they flip a switch and decide that meaning and truth can only be attainable through proofs of an absolute, almost mathematical nature.



  17. #37

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    I do find it amusing that so many people who, under normal circumstances, are perfectly capable of nuanced textual interpretations, suddenly, and as if by magic, lose this ability when discussing religion. It's like they flip a switch and decide that meaning and truth can only be attainable through magical tales of spurious, unprovable bollocks.
    FYP


    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV
    Sure, why not? Not like anyone else has given me a satisfactory array on the matter. It has always been a matter of interpretation, indeed, individual interpretation if not whatever the Church tells you (the 'easy mode Christianity' where you don't need to really know it to be it). Depending on which branch you subscribe to, this is exactly how it is supposed to be.
    So what's to stop me calling myself a Christian and deciding the entire Bible is a metaphor and not to be taken literally? Unless you have some parts that are canon, then surely the whole thing is just nonsense.

  18. #38

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    FYP
    Edgy. Though this wouldn't be the first time that I've had to witness a leftist tantrum over Christianity from someone who patently has no education in religion whatsoever.



  19. #39
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    So what's to stop me calling myself a Christian and deciding the entire Bible is a metaphor and not to be taken literally?
    Nothing, though by historical precedence you would be considered a heretic for it, that same precedence acknowledges you as having a viable shot of making that claim and establishing your way as a viable denomination.

  20. #40
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Edgy. Though this wouldn't be the first time that I've had to witness a leftist tantrum over Christianity from someone who patently has no education in religion whatsoever.
    I think the most relevant eduction here would be history, not religion. The bible is a historical document. Christian scholarship took the bible as premise for centuries of philosophizing. Critical analysis of sources is something of the past 50 years or so. How can religious scholarship, with the possible exception of contemporary discourse, then be anything but an undesirable source of bias in the search of how truthful the bible is?
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

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