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Thread: How true is the Bible?

  1. #341
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    Have you never wondered why this world is in the state it is? What more than anything else has caused the conflicts this world has seen? Land is the answer, the very thing that Cain is rejected for. Cain chose the land whilst Abel chose something that related to God and His purposes for life. Today land has become more sought after than ever before whether it's just possession down to a personal level or the general complexities of climate change blamed on man's greed or lust. Those that cry out may not know it but all they are doing is agreeing with God that this world is coming to an end but man won't do it that belongs to Jesus Christ when He comes back. Then all will see just how true the Bible is.
    err OK I am not sure where to begin.

    Have you never wondered why this world is in the state it is?
    Wait a minute by your own arguments the state is the result of perceptual blood attainder for the mistake of 2 people and some really lax security and an all knowing god who kinda whiffed on the serpent thing.

    What more than anything else has caused the conflicts this world has seen? Land is the answer,
    I say would general economic inequality.

    the very thing that Cain is rejected for. Cain chose the land whilst Abel chose something that related to God and His purposes for life
    Ahh no. Not in the OT without new testament ex post facto justifications. All we got a moralizing story for pastoralists. But in the end thay need land to just ask Jericho (in your story)

    Today land has become more sought after than ever before whether it's just possession down to a personal level or the general complexities of climate change blamed on man's greed or lust. Those that cry out may not know it but all they are doing is agreeing with God that this world is coming to an end but man won't do it that belongs to Jesus Christ when He comes back.
    The Former does not follow from the Latter

    Then all will see just how true the Bible is.
    Or theoretically any other text/belief system that has people in a less than perfect state or does not care argue thay ever were...
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  2. #342
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    conon394,

    Start from the central principle that our story, our being in existence, is down to One Person, God and work from there. We were made for His good pleasure and our outcomes remain at His good pleasure which begins at Genesis and works all the way through the Bible to the Revelation of Jesus Christ. That mankind is a fallen entity is proved time and time again in the history of this planet and not just concerning other men but in our care for what we have been given in it to look after. Jesus Christ came into the world as a man to guide us back to what we should be knowing that what we are would get Him crucified. It wouldn't have mattered what time His coming was as the outcome would still be the same.

  3. #343
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Start from the central principle that our story, our being in existence, is down to One Person, God and work from there.
    Actually I don't have too. Because as I established I don't find your story any more compelling than other one that compelled people now or long dead. And to be fair its a good deal less convincing than some given its layers of nonsense but pretending not to have in its refined form what with trying to link the NT to the OT.

    We were made for His good pleasure and our outcomes remain at His good pleasure which begins at Genesis and works all the way through the Bible to the Revelation of Jesus Christ
    He should have simply rebooted the program instead of waiting for some neo platonic converts to a messianic/suicidal jew to write the New testament [ And do a good enough job of it to win the battle of mystery regions with duality and a cool afterlife in the Roman era - a thing I guess] and try find links to a book by and for Hebrews who kinda wanted to stay that way and really did not care about non iron age sheep herders not related to them were not part of the plan (Jericho) or part of their backwater kingdom.

    Jesus Christ came into the world as a man to guide us back to what we should be knowing that what we are would get Him crucified. It wouldn't have mattered what time His coming was as the outcome would still be the same.
    So poor plan?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  4. #344
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    conon394,

    Jesus' whole ministry was about relating the Law and prophets into His time on the planet. The New Testament is a record of that but not only that for here was the promised Messias in Person telling them and yet they couldn't see it nor accept it. Times haven't changed but yet people are still being saved, why? Because the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God unto salvation.

  5. #345

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    So you really believe that animal husbandry requires no land use?
    Optio, Legio I Latina

  6. #346
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    5th-century European warlords don't get to determine what Christianity is.
    Some ancient German primitives made it so that the English language is now an international language.

    *shrug*

  7. #347

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    So most people never get memo for that and why so long why not just the day after Adam and Eve had grown kids so you know everyone would know the game plan from the start.
    It is a common saying tha "ignorance of the law is no excuse". Simply because nobody specifically wrong to kill little children doesn't you shouldn't or wont be held accontable if you commit such acts. Many guys genuine act surprise when they are charged with rape, after forcing themselves on a woman, thinking they did nothing wrong. But the fact they didnt think they had had done wrong, didn't mean tbey hadn't.

    And perhaps humans wouldn't have understood God"s end game if Ghod had tried to explain it right away. I doubt 17th century people would have understood quantum physics, even lezs than people of today. Somethings you don't understand until after yeara od experience, or centuries of learning.

  8. #348

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Actually I don't have too. Because as I established I don't find your story any more compelling than other one that compelled people now or long dead. And to be fair its a good deal less convincing than some given its layers of nonsense but pretending not to have in its refined form what with trying to link the NT to the OT.
    Simply because you don't like it, oe understand, doesn't mean your opinion is woeh anything. Billions don't agree wirh you.

    The first truly global civilization aas created by the people you don't agree with. The pagan Romans or Greeks, or Chinese or Indian for that matter, didn't sail around the world, or land on the moon. The follower of the bible created the richest, most advanced civilization the world has ever seen, bar none.

    He should have simply rebooted the program instead of waiting for some neo platonic converts to a messianic/suicidal jew to write the New testament [ And do a good enough job of it to win the battle of mystery regions with duality and a cool afterlife in the Roman era - a thing I guess] and try find links to a book by and for Hebrews who kinda wanted to stay that way and really did not care about non iron age sheep herders not related to them were not part of the plan (Jericho) or part of their backwater kingdom.
    So you are saying God should havs wiped out everybody, starting with you? Good thing God iz more merciful than you. And "neoplatonism" didn't exist at the time. Rhe New Testament was written. Alrhough elements oc what would become neoplatonism no doubt existed by the time of the New Testament was written. Neoplatonism arose around 200 CE, a century after rhe New Testament, with Ammonius Sacca and Plotinus.


    So poor plan?
    Christianity is world's largest religion, and its believer created the most advance cicilization he world has seen, advancing not only themselves but sweeping up the rest f the world with them. The literacy rate in the world:s most illiterate country is srill much higher than the most advanced countries of ancient times. Not too shabby.

  9. #349
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    May I wish friend and foe alike, a very happy New Year.

  10. #350
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Simply because you don't like it, oe understand, doesn't mean your opinion is woeh anything. Billions don't agree wirh you.
    Chill man sorry to offend. But I could say the second hand opinions of a messianic jew from some 2000 years ago mean little to me nor to seeming billions of other people.

    The first truly global civilization aas created by the people you don't agree with. The pagan Romans or Greeks, or Chinese or Indian for that matter, didn't sail around the world, or land on the moon. The follower of the bible created the richest, most advanced civilization the world has ever seen, bar none.
    I'm not quite sure a i can see the bit where the bible created that. Theoretically it also than created one of the most brutal civilizations in human history. One responsible for the crusades, the sack of Constantinople, the African slave trade and the odious racism that it required, the scramble for Africa and its worst example the Belgian Free State, Jim Crow, The opium wars, The fact thousands of people fought in 2 European wars as colonial subjects while lacking any representation, the Bengal famine. Communism (well Leninism) leading to Stalin, Imperial Japan made via glass darkly to survive, chemical warfare, atomic warfare, umm Hitler... You can't own the good without the bad.

    Also of course 30 years war the people I don't happen to agree have historically had some difficulty agreeing with each other (or re Constantinople again)

    So you are saying God should havs wiped out everybody, starting with you? Good thing God iz more merciful than you. And "neoplatonism" didn't exist at the time. Rhe New Testament was written. Alrhough elements oc what would become neoplatonism no doubt existed by the time of the New Testament was written. Neoplatonism arose around 200 CE, a century after rhe New Testament, with Ammonius Sacca and Plotinus.
    On Neoplatonism yes if you want to be formal but in itself is the product of late classical and Hellenist philosophy that preceded it. But I accept the error. How about Hellenist Philosophy and structured mystery religions.

    Umm no on the saving thing. I simply fail to see why everything is punished for the transgression of 2 people. That seems a simple enough question. You see the comparative logic Bellerophon's Hubris lead to his individual suffering and downfall and a life time of misery. But not his horse nor anyone else that had no part in his hubris. So I don't think god should save me I am questioning why I need to be saved by a cruel and capacious god who can't run his own creation very well if he in fact is the creator.

    Christianity is world's largest religion, and its believer created the most advance cicilization he world has seen, advancing not only themselves but sweeping up the rest f the world with them. The literacy rate in the world:s most illiterate country is srill much higher than the most advanced countries of ancient times. Not too shabby.
    Again I not sure I see any particularly causation link to Christianity in any of that. Largest but hardly a majority. And given the trends it will fall behind Islam in a couple decades. The LDS also grow faster. And below a lot Christians are just going through the motions. Are you really christian if you just show up for Easter and Christmas mass?

    https://www.pewforum.org/2018/06/13/...e-of-all-ages/
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  11. #351

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    [QUOTE=conon394;15862929]


    I'm not quite sure a i can see the bit where the bible created that. Theoretically it also than created one of the most brutal civilizations in human history.
    And one of the most civilized as well. One that created international relief agencies like the Red Cross, and other charitable organizations. Name me another civilizations at created charitable organizations not just for members of their own societies but other societies as well. When did. Islamic societies send famine relief for non Islamic societies? Or Buddhist for that matter. Or conventions that limited some of the horrors of war like the Geneva?

    The spread of literacy and higher culture were very much a byproduct of Christianity. It was Christianity that brought literacy to the European countries.beyond the boundaries of the Roman empire, and then then first universities.

    One responsible for the crusades, the sack of Constantinople, the African slave trade and the odious racism that it required, the scramble for Africa and its worst example the Belgian Free State, Jim Crow, The opium wars, The fact thousands of people fought in 2 European wars as colonial subjects while lacking any representation, the Bengal famine. Communism (well Leninism) leading to Stalin, Imperial Japan made via glass darkly to survive, chemical warfare, atomic warfare, umm Hitler... You can't own the good without the bad.

    No, you can't pretend the bad didn't happen. But sack of cities like the Mongol sack of.Baghdad or Timur sack of Delhi have occurred throughout history. And slavery existed throughout history, but it was through the efforts of religiously motivated persons like Wilburforce that helped bring an end to slavery worldwide. You can't talk about the bad without the good. All he people lost in wars are more than offset by all the people saved through modern medicine, which was often developed in institutions first developed by the Christian church. Our word for hospital comes from religiously run hospices, and many hospitals were founded by religious organizations.

    Would the sciences like modern medicine have arisen anyways is a question that cannot be definitely, but there is no question that Christianity and the bible shaped western society, and these things arose in the west. An Italian used the invention of an Dutch man to support the theory of a Pole. Would that have happened without the cultural unity created by the Church? The an ancient Germans ans Slavs or Celts weren't exchanging a y intellectual ideas.

    Also of course 30 years war the people I don't happen to agree have historically had some difficulty agreeing with each other (or re Constantinople again)
    That religion is exploited for a cause doesn't mean the causes are all religious. The factors in the 30 years war included politicial and cultural concerns as well, as Catholic France entering in on the side of he Protestants shows.


    On Neoplatonism yes if you want to be formal but in itself is the product of late classical and Hellenist philosophy that preceded it. But I accept the error. How about Hellenist Philosophy and structured mystery religions.
    I don't see how the first Christians couldn't help but be influenced by the classical and Hellenistic civilization that dominated world they lived in, but they also were heavily influenced by their heritage. More so than other mystery religions, Christianity was heavily associated and arose out of an established religions.

    Umm no on the saving thing. I simply fail to see why everything is punished for the transgression of 2 people. That seems a simple enough question. You see the comparative logic Bellerophon's Hubris lead to his individual suffering and downfall and a life time of misery. But not his horse nor anyone else that had no part in his hubris. So I don't think god should save me I am questioning why I need to be saved by a cruel and capacious god who can't run his own creation very well if he in fact is the creator.
    Some frat boy don't think they did anything wrong or should be punished for having sex with a woman against her will. But just because they didn't think they were guilty of anything doesn't mean they didn't deserve punishment. Likewise simply because you believe you didn't do anything deserving punishment does not mean that is the case.

    And if a noblemen gets his estate confiscated as a result of treason, his children suffer from the loss of his property even though they weren't guilty of treason.


    Again I not sure I see any particularly causation link to Christianity in any of that. Largest but hardly a majority. And given the trends it will fall behind Islam in a couple decades. The LDS also grow faster. And below a lot Christians are just going through the motions. Are you really christian if you just show up for Easter and Christmas mass?
    You called it a failure. We can agree that being the world's largest hardly ranks as a failure, which is what you asserted.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; January 07, 2020 at 07:50 PM. Reason: spelling typo correction

  12. #352
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    So, how true is the Bible? Well, for me it is as if God had put every word into it Personally and if Peter is correct that indeed was God the Holy Spirit working through the hands of the writers. What men may say about it can and is wide and varied but if one follows the golden rules of context and flow one cannot go wrong.

  13. #353

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Seriously though, has anyone ever found any talking snakes?

  14. #354

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    Seriously though, has anyone ever found any talking snakes?
    I knew one, but it disappeared when I sobered up.

  15. #355
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    It's a good question for I have known one or two and they were dressed as human beings. So, getting down to the nitty gritty of a scene that was different from the rest of the land in which one can assume the animals never ate one another for in it was the type and shadow of heaven, the supernatural happened by Diablos speaking through a serpent. It was an indication of the power that he weilds even in this world today and it is highlighted by the actions of man and the rest of creation. How deep the lie has become that today it is called the survival of the fittest and there is nothing that is not affected.

  16. #356
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    and if Peter is correct that indeed was God the Holy Spirit working through the hands of the writers
    And if Plato is correct there is only a remote prime mover who really cares not much about you or possibly cannot. And if we allow Democritus than atoms you are made of and to atoms you will return. Personally I find Plato a better writer than Peter and so meh I go with him if I have to vote even though I find him an arrogant aristocratic jerk.
    Last edited by conon394; January 07, 2020 at 01:17 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  17. #357
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    It's a good question for I have known one or two and they were dressed as human beings.
    In my country some are Christians, some are not. I think its the same where you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    So, getting down to the nitty gritty of a scene that was different from the rest of the land in which one can assume the animals never ate one another for in it was the type and shadow of heaven...
    Nowhere in genesis does it say Eden was heaven. It is given a geographic location as the source of four rivers including the Tigris and Euphrates, as well as the Gihon said to surround Cush in Africa, and a fourth river that goes to "Havilah". The sources of the first two rivers are known and do not feature angrels or a garden so the myths about them are literally lies.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    ... the supernatural happened by Diablos speaking through a serpent.
    Are you stating that all snakes have been eternally punished to crawl and be crushed by men's heels because Satan possessed one once? How utterly unjust this God is.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    It was an indication of the power that he weilds even in this world today and it is highlighted by the actions of man and the rest of creation.
    Certainly if Satan is capable of damning all mankind by simply speaking the truth then he's relatively powerful. Clearly God's narrative of fruit killing Adam "on that day" was false, he lived over nine hundred years, so maybe it wasn't that Satan was strong, but that God was a very poor planner. "I will leave this "Father of Lies" I created unsupervised with two people under a year old who have no concept of right and wrong, what could possibly go wrong?" I would not leave my child in that garden, the creator was criminally negligent and by poor safety brought Death into the world and blamed everyone except Himself. Under Australian law he'd be facing a very lengthy gaol term.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    How deep the lie has become that today it is called the survival of the fittest and there is nothing that is not affected.
    Survival of the fittest is glib shorthand for the theory of natural selection posited by Darwin (not Satan) and is not mentioned in Genesis but it definitely does not affect everything. There's a multitude of monumentally ignorant ideologues who remain untouched by it.

    The theory of natural selection is not a lie, its a theory and you should feel free to discuss it as it is testable. Its science, and as such anyone with a brain can do it.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Regarding the discussion a few pages back about divine wisdom…

    Wisdom is grammatically feminine in Hebrew, and one could argue it’s simply a translation choice to represent it as conceptually feminine, but there seems to be an underlying agenda and/or traces of a tradition related to the Genesis story. There are several places in the text in which Canaanite deities are referenced in such a way as to depict them as non-divine. For example, “[the] deep” (the primordial waters) in Genesis 1:2 are tehom (singular without a definite article) which is the Canaanite cognate of tamtu in Akkadian, that you may all know as Tiamat - the goddess of the primordial sea and chaos who Marduk battles in the Babylonian creation story. The Canaanite deities are repeatedly demythologized, presented simply as the creations of Yahweh which are easily formed and bent to his will, inanimate with one potential exception – Asherah.

    Prior to Josiah’s reforms, as depicted in the Book of Kings, Asherah was venerated in the temple alongside Yahweh. Inscriptions have been found that refer to “Yahweh and his Asherah”. She was a (perhaps wise) mother goddess associated with the Tree of Life, often depicted with a snake in each hand, or sometimes with a snake in one hand and a flower in the other. One of her epithets was ḥawwāh, that is “life-giver”, which is Anglicized as Eve.

    The snake was associated with eternal life or long life in the ancient Near East because it sheds its skin and becomes young again. As you may remember, the snake steals Gilgamesh’s chance at eternal life. Of course he likewise was involved in some similar business in Genesis 3, resulting in:

    “And Yahweh ᵓĕlōhîm said ‘Look, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand, and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever’”

    Now with that in mind, take a look at Proverbs 3:

    “Blessed is [the] man who finds wisdom, [the] man who gains understanding… Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor… A tree of life she is to those who take hold of her.”

    The word translated as “[the] man” here is ᵓādām, without the definite article, just as in Genesis where it is usually translated as Adam, a proper name. Though I don’t think it’s really meant to be a proper name. While these references seem to exist more as a subtext than a main theme, they certainly would have been obvious to the Bible's earliest audience. Elsewhere in Proverbs, there is a reference to Yahweh creating the world through wisdom, which may be a demythologizing reference to a more anthropomorphic type Canaanite creation story.

    Regarding Gihon, it's a very generic name to give a river, it means "gushing". It's also the name the spring below Jerusalem.
    Last edited by sumskilz; January 07, 2020 at 05:50 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  19. #359
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Regarding the discussion a few pages back about divine wisdom…

    Wisdom is grammatically feminine in Hebrew, and one could argue it’s simply a translation choice to represent it as conceptually feminine, but there seems to be an underlying agenda and/or traces of a tradition related to the Genesis story. There are several places in the text in which Canaanite deities are referenced in such a way as to depict them as non-divine. For example, “[the] deep” (the primordial waters) in Genesis 1:2 are tehom (singular without a definite article) which is the Canaanite cognate of tamtu in Akkadian, that you may all know as Tiamat - the goddess of the primordial sea and chaos who Marduk battles in the Babylonian creation story. The Canaanite deities are repeatedly demythologized, presented simply as the creations of Yahweh which are easily formed and bent to his will, inanimate with one potential exception – Asherah.

    Prior to Josiah’s reforms, as depicted in the Book of Kings, Asherah was venerated in the temple alongside Yahweh. Inscriptions have been found that refer to “Yahweh and his Asherah”. She was a (perhaps wise) mother goddess associated with the Tree of Life, often depicted with a snake in each hand, or sometimes with a snake in one hand and a flower in the other. One of her epithets was ḥawwāh, that is “life-giver”, which is Anglicized as Eve.
    Yes YHWH's apparent marriage (surely he wouldn't have an unmarried Lady in his House) and its subsequent erasure are a fascinating element of scripture. I think i brought up the Mesopotamian garden myth where the Lady of the Rib (curiously a homonym for Lady of Life) heals the fruit-stealer god En (well she's one of eight healers, she heals his, umm, rib) in another thread? I love this stuff, the Bible is composed as much of echoes and lost puns as anything else sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    The snake was associated with eternal life or long life in the ancient Near East because it sheds its skin and becomes young again. As you may remember, the snake steals Gilgamesh’s chance at eternal life. Of course he likewise was involved in some similar business in Genesis 3, resulting in:

    “And Yahweh ᵓĕlōhîm said ‘Look, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. Now, lest he reach out his hand, and take also of the tree of life and eat, and live forever’” Now with that in mind, take a look at Proverbs 3:

    “Blessed is [the] man who finds wisdom, [the] man who gains understanding… Long life is in her right hand; in her left hand are riches and honor… A tree of life she is to those who take hold of her.”

    The word translated as “[the] man” here is ᵓādām, without the definite article, just as in Genesis where it is usually translated as Adam, a proper name. Though I don’t think it’s really meant to be a proper name. While these references seem to exist more as a subtext than a main theme, they certainly would have been obvious to the Bible's earliest audience. Elsewhere in Proverbs, there is a reference to Yahweh creating the world through wisdom, which may be a demythologizing reference to a more anthropomorphic type Canaanite creation story.
    Its a bit mind blowing. I honestly think but for a few accidents of history (resulting on certain doctrinal shibboleths being adopted) we might have a Mum and Dad pair in heaven instead of the Bearded Bachelor. Apparently Islam went close with some honoured doves too, according to Salman Rushdie at least.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Regarding Gihon, it's a very generic name to give a river, it means "gushing". It's also the name the spring below Jerusalem.
    In Britain it would have been "Avon".

    I've been chatting with my pal who favours the "Haram as Antonina/Temple on Gihon" theory again, its tantalising and the opposition while haughtily dismissive seems oddly weak. Politically the question is settled though, but academically (and truthfully?) it might be worth discussing further.

    The scriptural descriptions looks like a bunch of re purposed Babylonian city descriptions (no way did David's city have dual-chariot walls) so it might all be bunk, but they do talk about the water washing out the Temple twice a day (which would require anachronistic aqueducts or massive reservoirs, where?)...he cites Ramban and Radak and the Provencal Pilgrim and Josephus.

    I Googled it and apparently the Settlers Association that controls the spring found Bronze Age towers when the put in a visitors centre, but they weren't attributed to Solomon I guess because "everyone knows..."

    I lack the perspective or understanding to descry the wheat from the chaff but one point sticks out: I struggle with the idea of a fortified city on an arid hill with no spring inside the walls. Surely Melchizedek or David weren't stupid enough to leave Salem's city without a secure water supply inside the walls? I mean the spring was fortified early so it was worth holding on to.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  20. #360
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Cyclops,

    Of course it doesn't say it directly but since it was a separate feature put onto the land one can see that it was a type and shadow of heaven otherwisw why place it there? The rivers that ran through it would I suppose be withdrawn when the garden was so to try to evaluate them as with the rivers left doesn't follow.

    All creation was punished by the change in nature that took effect when the curse was placed on it so why would snakes be any different?

    Satan was not speaking the truth because in the day that the twosome ate the fruit death did come upon not just them but all creation yet not immediately why? Because it was ordained that Jesus Christ would come into the world to save a certain body of people from out of it. That body have there names written in the book of life even before the worlds were made and shall be unfolded when Jesus Christ comes back to finalise all things. The overall story has already been finished from the heavenly timescale so in our time we are living it out until that heavenly time is fulfilled here.

    As for Darwin's theory one can accept it as real or not. I don't believe it.

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