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Thread: How true is the Bible?

  1. #301
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Unless people convert to Christianity exclusively for other reasons than personal belief, your point about his appeal to popularity is invalid. The message of Christianity appeals to people on an individual level, completely separate from the group consciousness.
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  2. #302
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    I still see no proof that "the Bible is true" beyond "I have a strong personal belief".

    As the Bible is written by humans (I have never seen one autographed by God, Jesus or their wives) I assume it includes some deliberate lies (eg moe than one fake Isaiah) and errors. The errors might stem from mistranslation (or Chinese whispers like Eve and the rib), emotional overflow (like the conflicting stories of Jesus' birth, so certain were his followers of his special status "it must have been like that") and the many other failures our flawed flesh is heir to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    Unless people convert to Christianity exclusively for other reasons than personal belief, your point about his appeal to popularity is invalid. The message of Christianity appeals to people on an individual level, completely separate from the group consciousness.
    [citation needed]

    There's a lot of loose statements ITT, and while I agree with some of your criticisms that's also a loose statement. I know one Christian who explicitly resumed attending church on the basis that his ancestors did it. I suspect a great mass of believes inherit a faith and practise it unreflectively. This unreflective praxis leads to accusations of incoherence and hypocrisy from smug agnostic critics like myself whose lives and ethical frameworks are rife with unreflective elements also.

    Religion ties into economic and social and political systems so tightly that sometimes religion re-writes a person;s ethnicity: this is seen in Bosnia Herzegovina where a previously ultra-complex social-ethnic-religious-political maps was simplified by rabid 19th century nationalism into "if you're Catholic, you're a Croat, if you're orthodox, that's a Serb, and if you're muslim, that's a paddlin'". Never mind the many shades of identity with catholic Italians, Slovenes, Hungarians and Germans, or Orthodox Hellenes and Bulgarians as well as Muslims ranging from Albanian and Bosniak to Turk and any other ethnicity that decided to convert.

    These kinds of tightly wadded questions of identity and curled up in the pages of the Bible. They do make sense on some contexts, but other kinds of sense have been made of them too: they are not "true", they are weird constructs force onto old writing (often edited over many times) to make it relevant to the reader's present.

    There are truths in the Bible. There are lessons and messages. Its not The Truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  3. #303

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    Unless people convert to Christianity exclusively for other reasons than personal belief, your point about his appeal to popularity is invalid. The message of Christianity appeals to people on an individual level, completely separate from the group consciousness.
    That doesn't really make sense but sure. Go ahead with this deflection to insist on your objection arising from not consider the context a statement is made in. Heck, if you actually think about it what you're saying goes against what basics have been saying.
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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    As Peter tells us in Scripture our ability to understand what has been written comes down to the power of the Holy Ghost working in or at the person reading it. As John Metcalfe says to most it is the dead letter of Scripture but to some it is the living word of God. In other words it is God Himself Who gives one, anyone, the ability to see it. Without that input basics is nothing for it is the word of God working in him now when once it didn't that makes all the difference.

  5. #305

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    When you consider all the re-writes and revisions over the centuries, using the bible as a primary source for anything is highly suspect.

  6. #306

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    As Peter tells us in Scripture our ability to understand what has been written comes down to the power of the Holy Ghost working in or at the person reading it. As John Metcalfe says to most it is the dead letter of Scripture but to some it is the living word of God. In other words it is God Himself Who gives one, anyone, the ability to see it. Without that input basics is nothing for it is the word of God working in him now when once it didn't that makes all the difference.
    Wow. Trying to shift the blame to god for your own failure to substantiate your claims. What a blasphemous argument to make. This is a grave sin no matter what religion you ascribe to. Unless it is Satanism perhaps.
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  7. #307
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Judaism and all its related historical errata, like Christianity and Islam, are basically horribly outdated pulp fiction. Meanwhile that part is obvious, the true tragedy of the story is that some people still believe in this most boring and unreliable, but also most popular sources about the ancient world (in all it's filth and cruelty). It's a shame, guys. The world is much more interesting without a god-symbolism everywhere i would just put a question mark?
    Last edited by swabian; December 16, 2019 at 02:52 AM.

  8. #308

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    Judaism and all its related historical errata, like Christianity and Islam, are basically horribly outdated pulp fiction. Meanwhile that part is obvious, the true tragedy of the story is that some people still believe in this most boring and unreliable, but also most popular sources about the ancient world (in all it's filth and cruelty). It's a shame, guys. The world is much more interesting without a god-symbolism everywhere i would just put a question mark?
    For many the world is just as much interesting with god in it.
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  9. #309

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Cyclops, what you're describing there sounds like 'cultural' Christianity, not actual saving faith. Billions of people may affiliate with Christianity for one reason or another, but that doesn't make them Christians. Christianity is a matter of faith (that is, trust, in a person), it's not an aesthetic, an intellectual belief or a tribal affiliation. There's a lot of factors that can push someone to consider Christianity, but ultimately the choice is theirs and is made at the individual level. There's no such thing as inherited or vicarious faith.

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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    From what I understand, 'inherited faith' is in the sense of family influencing their offspring towards belief from the start, which is undeniably something that happens, as well as people in close connection believing something making that person want to fit in, see things their way, or otherwise be more inclined to do things because surely that is the way they are done. However they justify it to themselves, this lends credence to 'inherited faith' as something that gets people through the door. The rest of the above post falls straight into the 'no true Scotsman' deal.

  11. #311
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I still see no proof that "the Bible is true" beyond "I have a strong personal belief".

    As the Bible is written by humans (I have never seen one autographed by God, Jesus or their wives) I assume it includes some deliberate lies (eg moe than one fake Isaiah) and errors. The errors might stem from mistranslation (or Chinese whispers like Eve and the rib), emotional overflow (like the conflicting stories of Jesus' birth, so certain were his followers of his special status "it must have been like that") and the many other failures our flawed flesh is heir to.


    [citation needed]

    There's a lot of loose statements ITT, and while I agree with some of your criticisms that's also a loose statement. I know one Christian who explicitly resumed attending church on the basis that his ancestors did it. I suspect a great mass of believes inherit a faith and practise it unreflectively. This unreflective praxis leads to accusations of incoherence and hypocrisy from smug agnostic critics like myself whose lives and ethical frameworks are rife with unreflective elements also.

    Religion ties into economic and social and political systems so tightly that sometimes religion re-writes a person;s ethnicity: this is seen in Bosnia Herzegovina where a previously ultra-complex social-ethnic-religious-political maps was simplified by rabid 19th century nationalism into "if you're Catholic, you're a Croat, if you're orthodox, that's a Serb, and if you're muslim, that's a paddlin'". Never mind the many shades of identity with catholic Italians, Slovenes, Hungarians and Germans, or Orthodox Hellenes and Bulgarians as well as Muslims ranging from Albanian and Bosniak to Turk and any other ethnicity that decided to convert.

    These kinds of tightly wadded questions of identity and curled up in the pages of the Bible. They do make sense on some contexts, but other kinds of sense have been made of them too: they are not "true", they are weird constructs force onto old writing (often edited over many times) to make it relevant to the reader's present.

    There are truths in the Bible. There are lessons and messages. Its not The Truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

    That's not what Christianity is about. What you are describing is a mix of secular European culture and a post-Christian Jesus-shouting prosperity mega-church cult in the US where one goes to feel good and get a sense of belonging without actually believing and living the words.

    Real Christianity is intrinsically individual on every level. It is the struggle of the imperfect self up Golgotha towards the light of deification.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Heck, if you actually think about it what you're saying goes against what basics have been saying.
    How? Please, detail your argument.
    Last edited by Sir Adrian; December 16, 2019 at 11:16 AM.
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  12. #312
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    True Scotsmen as far as the eye can see.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Cyclops, what you're describing there sounds like 'cultural' Christianity, not actual saving faith. Billions of people may affiliate with Christianity for one reason or another, but that doesn't make them Christians. Christianity is a matter of faith (that is, trust, in a person), it's not an aesthetic, an intellectual belief or a tribal affiliation. There's a lot of factors that can push someone to consider Christianity, but ultimately the choice is theirs and is made at the individual level. There's no such thing as inherited or vicarious faith.

    There are a lot of definitions of what a Christian is. In fact Christians seem to spend a lot of time excluding other Christians from Christ's body. Jesus never says what a Christian is, and never once uses the word Christian.

    If someone tells me they are a Christians I tend to accept their view. If I felt arrogant enough I might dabble in the exclusion game and say "Jesus was a Jew who went to Temple (as were 100% of his followers in his lifetime), and barely spoke to non-Jews. Unless you're a practising Temple-going Jew you can't be a follower of Jesus" but that would be rude.

    Quote Originally Posted by Settra View Post
    That's not what Christianity is about. What you are describing is a mix of secular European culture and a post-Christian Jesus-shouting prosperity mega-church cult in the US where one goes to feel good and get a sense of belonging without actually believing and living the words.

    Real Christianity is intrinsically individual on every level. It is the struggle of the imperfect self up Golgotha towards the light of deification.
    I respect your opinion, but I recall Jesus saying For where two or three and gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them (Matthew 18:20). Jesus speaks of the Kingdom and God as King, not as individuals going to their deaths. I see Jesus as a teacher to a community, not an individual life coach. I think Golgotha was a terrible surprise to him, of course after he died it was interpreted as part of the plan but while he was alive he talked about eternal life, not Golgotha.

    As I say I respect your opinion and if we piece together this bit of the OT and that bit of the imperfect memories of Jesus in the Gospels and the shifting theology of the Letters I am sure we can come to an individualist theology. However we can also come to a "Christians should be circumcised and attend temple" theology just as easily (or more easily perhaps).
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  13. #313

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by CommodusIV View Post
    From what I understand, 'inherited faith' is in the sense of family influencing their offspring towards belief from the start, which is undeniably something that happens, as well as people in close connection believing something making that person want to fit in, see things their way, or otherwise be more inclined to do things because surely that is the way they are done. However they justify it to themselves, this lends credence to 'inherited faith' as something that gets people through the door. The rest of the above post falls straight into the 'no true Scotsman' deal.
    I don't think it's possible for human beings to save or condemn you against your will. That would seem to make light of salvation, as if human beings are somehow in control of who does and doesn't get saved. But regardless of how people come to faith, the fact of the matter is that those who lack faith in Christ are not Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    There are a lot of definitions of what a Christian is.
    Right, but with regard to salvation, not every definition can be true. As far as Scripture is concerned, salvation is through faith in Christ, not through identifying as a Christian, and not through attending a church. If someone goes to church and considers himself to be a Christian, but lacks faith in Christ, then he's still an unbeliever.

    It's true that we can't know for sure whether someone truly has faith in Christ, though we can make a good guess based on their words and deeds, such as profession of faith and works of charity. However, there's nothing wrong with making the general statement that those who lack faith in Christ are not Christians, even if they affiliate with Christianity for one reason or another.

    Parable of the Wedding Banquet

    Matthew 22

    Jesus spoke to them again in parables, saying: 2 “The kingdom of heaven is like a king who prepared a wedding banquet for his son. 3 He sent his servants to those who had been invited to the banquet to tell them to come, but they refused to come.

    4 “Then he sent some more servants and said, ‘Tell those who have been invited that I have prepared my dinner: My oxen and fattened cattle have been butchered, and everything is ready. Come to the wedding banquet.’

    5 “But they paid no attention and went off—one to his field, another to his business. 6 The rest seized his servants, mistreated them and killed them. 7 The king was enraged. He sent his army and destroyed those murderers and burned their city.

    8 “Then he said to his servants, ‘The wedding banquet is ready, but those I invited did not deserve to come. 9 So go to the street corners and invite to the banquet anyone you find.’ 10 So the servants went out into the streets and gathered all the people they could find, the bad as well as the good, and the wedding hall was filled with guests.

    11 “But when the king came in to see the guests, he noticed a man there who was not wearing wedding clothes. 12 He asked, ‘How did you get in here without wedding clothes, friend?’ The man was speechless.

    13 “Then the king told the attendants, ‘Tie him hand and foot, and throw him outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

    14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”
    Matthew Henry's Bible Commentary

    The design of the gospel is to gather souls to Christ; all the children of God scattered abroad, Joh 10:16; 11:52. The case of hypocrites is represented by the guest that had not on a wedding-garment. It concerns all to prepare for the scrutiny; and those, and those only, who put on the Lord Jesus, who have a Christian temper of mind, who live by faith in Christ, and to whom he is all in all, have the wedding-garment. The imputed righteousness of Christ, and the sanctification of the Spirit, are both alike necessary. No man has the wedding-garment by nature, or can form it for himself. The day is coming, when hypocrites will be called to account for all their presumptuous intruding into gospel ordinances, and usurpation of gospel privileges. Take him away. Those that walk unworthy of Christianity, forfeit all the happiness they presumptuously claimed. Our Saviour here passes out of the parable into that which it teaches. Hypocrites go by the light of the gospel itself down to utter darkness. Many are called to the wedding-feast, that is, to salvation, but few have the wedding-garment, the righteousness of Christ, the sanctification of the Spirit. Then let us examine ourselves whether we are in the faith, and seek to be approved by the King.
    Last edited by Prodromos; December 16, 2019 at 11:49 PM.
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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    God is not a God of chaos but order and so it is with the making of Christians or to be precise born again believers. Being born into a family of born again believers does not make you a born again Christian. Nor does being sprinkled with water do so. The Psalmist tells us that God looks for the broken and contrite heart and that occurs when the Father draws a person to Jesus followed by the condemnation work of the Holy Spirit making the repentant conditioned for rebirth which then happens. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the trigger for it is the power of God unto salvation. Without the Bible there would be no Gospel and without it no conversions. God spoke all creation into existence and by His Word brings about the saving of some but not all. That is why Jesus Christ is the Word of God for He is our creator and our Redeemer should any seek Him with a contrite heart.

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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    I don't think it's possible for human beings to save or condemn you against your will. That would seem to make light of salvation, as if human beings are somehow in control of who does and doesn't get saved. But regardless of how people come to faith, the fact of the matter is that those who lack faith in Christ are not Christians.
    Saving or condemnation is not relevant to the core point - it is that people can come into the faith by proxy of crowd appeal, in this case, the crowd being family, either pressure (deliberate/strong or otherwise), influence or good old 'they do it, why?' that results in reflection and then joining. That premise includes all levels of faith resulting; people who legitimately get into it with their beliefs, people with a 'casual' belief or non-100% acceptance of what's preached but still believe there's something of merit in there, and people who follow along because that is what is expected. Don't discount the middle category. Just because it doesn't blindly accept everything or varies widely in what it accepts doesn't mean its faith isn't legitimate to at least some degree. However you define the faithful, how it's expressed/if it's expressed/how deeply held or considered the faith is would be a wide spectrum. Two can honestly claim to believe in Christ, but while one may have spent considerable hours in reflection, the other may simply take it as a thing for granted without having given it much thought if any due to a simple mindset of 'that's just how it works'. That audience is huge, even still.

    What's interesting is considering those two groups, especially when the latter of them is still malleable, subject to change in how they express their beliefs or even hold them and possibly vulnerable when challenged to substantiate why they think things are what they are.

  16. #316
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    Look I accept you have a definition for Christianity, but you are not the only Christian so I will accept other definitions.

    Back to the OP, there are so may truths in the Bible you can support almost any theological position you like.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Right, but with regard to salvation, not every definition can be true. ...
    Yes (John 14:6) but consider Matthew 19:26 "...in God all things are possible" and in 2 Kings 2:11 Elijah goes directly to heaven in a whirlwind (or possibly a fiery chariot, or both, or maybe Elisha murdered him and stole his mantle and made up the whole thing), with no appearance by Jesus either at the time or earlier in his life.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    God is not a God of chaos but order ...
    Genesis 1:1. Literally the first thing God makes is chaos. Before he is the God of setting man up on dates with animals, and leaving naive people alone with Satan and death-fruit, he is the God of Chaos. He is arguably also the God of Order, but Miracles break the natural order by definition.

    There's so much Truth in the Bible its very hard to make a statement based on Scripture that Scripture does not also contradict.
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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Cyclops,

    In every business I have run the ones that cause most disruption are the ones lowest down the pecking order. For some reason they always turned out to be the ones who could run the business better and so were the biggest moaners never thinking how fortunate they were to be employed. In Genesis God walked and talked with Adam, no mention of Eve yet who do we find to be the one set on by the serpent to defy God's rule on the fruit eating? Regardless of what she had been told she was seduced by the serpent and then convinced Adam that her knowledge was better than his or God's. So God turned them over to satan and sin as if to say let's see what you do now with a life that had just been shortened with death. God didn't create the chaos that followed, man did and by that set in motion God's intention to introduce Himself into the chaos by saving some from each generation to make what should have been there from the start. So, we will have a new heaven and earth without all the other accoutrements needed for this creation, the moaners left to rue the day they did not take God seriously from across the great chasm called hell.

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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Cyclops,

    In every business I have run the ones that cause most disruption are the ones lowest down the pecking order. For some reason they always turned out to be the ones who could run the business better and so were the biggest moaners never thinking how fortunate they were to be employed. In Genesis God walked and talked with Adam, no mention of Eve yet who do we find to be the one set on by the serpent to defy God's rule on the fruit eating? Regardless of what she had been told she was seduced by the serpent and then convinced Adam that her knowledge was better than his or God's. So God turned them over to satan and sin as if to say let's see what you do now with a life that had just been shortened with death. God didn't create the chaos that followed, man did and by that set in motion God's intention to introduce Himself into the chaos by saving some from each generation to make what should have been there from the start. So, we will have a new heaven and earth without all the other accoutrements needed for this creation, the moaners left to rue the day they did not take God seriously from across the great chasm called hell.
    So you exposing duality? You sure you are not following Mithraism? Unless God did not create the serpent, but that makes very different story now does it not. Or God did create the serpent and so he created evil so really he is punishing his own creation for his own failings and than taking for bloody ever to get around to allowing a way out for only a select few who happen to close at hand before 5G
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  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Cyclops,

    In every business I have run the ones that cause most disruption are the ones lowest down the pecking order. For some reason they always turned out to be the ones who could run the business better and so were the biggest moaners never thinking how fortunate they were to be employed. In Genesis God walked and talked with Adam, no mention of Eve yet who do we find to be the one set on by the serpent to defy God's rule on the fruit eating? Regardless of what she had been told she was seduced by the serpent and then convinced Adam that her knowledge was better than his or God's. So God turned them over to satan and sin as if to say let's see what you do now with a life that had just been shortened with death. God didn't create the chaos that followed, man did and by that set in motion God's intention to introduce Himself into the chaos by saving some from each generation to make what should have been there from the start. So, we will have a new heaven and earth without all the other accoutrements needed for this creation, the moaners left to rue the day they did not take God seriously from across the great chasm called hell.
    No commandment was given Eve, and Adam was not forced to eat.

    As for the chaos I mentioned, it preceded Eden: why are you discussing post fruit chaos? The God of order you mention is also the God of Chaos, or so says Genesis 1. I note you ignore these difficult points old chap and I do not blame you. To much truth is hard on the stomach.

    As for this post fruit chaos: do you contend Man or Satan created something new? As Conon notes most (but not all) Christians would denounce you as a heretic for such talk!

    Nevertheless I accept that this misogynist rant is consonant with much Christian doctrine. There's plenty more "woman is inferior to man" stuff in other parts too: this is one theme in the OT traditions and reinforced by that notorious dualist Augustine.

    However its not all that way. Proverbs 8:1 has a lovely paean to Feminine Wisdom, who was with God before creation. This point (and a very few more) prove even a Feminist Christianity is not too heavy a burden for Scripture to bear: for Christians, all things are possible.

    The mention of a divine feminine is difficult for the all-male Trinity favoured by most Christians but is usually waved away ("its just symbolic/poetic") rather than tackled head on. This chop/change method of exegesis allows even more imaginative doctrines to be extracted from unwitting source material.

    However by opening that door you let in all kinds of possibilities...maybe Hagia Sophia is God's daughter who becomes his son for the purposes of sacrifice? Abraham was gypped, he could have slaughtered a mere daughter instead of binding Isaac (and so much for the ram in the bush, where was the entangled caprid at Golgotha?).

    Or is Holy Wisdom God's wife? I mean God has a son, which naturally requires a wife surely. You would not accuse God of having children out of wedlock surely...
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    No commandment was given Eve, and Adam was not forced to eat.

    As for the chaos I mentioned, it preceded Eden: why are you discussing post fruit chaos? The God of order you mention is also the God of Chaos, or so says Genesis 1. I note you ignore these difficult points old chap and I do not blame you. To much truth is hard on the stomach.

    As for this post fruit chaos: do you contend Man or Satan created something new? As Conon notes most (but not all) Christians would denounce you as a heretic for such talk!

    Nevertheless I accept that this misogynist rant is consonant with much Christian doctrine. There's plenty more "woman is inferior to man" stuff in other parts too: this is one theme in the OT traditions and reinforced by that notorious dualist Augustine.

    However its not all that way. Proverbs 8:1 has a lovely paean to Feminine Wisdom, who was with God before creation. This point (and a very few more) prove even a Feminist Christianity is not too heavy a burden for Scripture to bear: for Christians, all things are possible.

    The mention of a divine feminine is difficult for the all-male Trinity favoured by most Christians but is usually waved away ("its just symbolic/poetic") rather than tackled head on. This chop/change method of exegesis allows even more imaginative doctrines to be extracted from unwitting source material.

    However by opening that door you let in all kinds of possibilities...maybe Hagia Sophia is God's daughter who becomes his son for the purposes of sacrifice? Abraham was gypped, he could have slaughtered a mere daughter instead of binding Isaac (and so much for the ram in the bush, where was the entangled caprid at Golgotha?).

    Or is Holy Wisdom God's wife? I mean God has a son, which naturally requires a wife surely. You would not accuse God of having children out of wedlock surely...
    Cyclops,

    " In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth....." No chaos there. " and the earth was without form , and void ; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters....." No chaos there. However note the order, heaven first and then the earth setting a precedent for the rest of Scripture. So we have total pitch black darkness and inside it is placed a planet covered in water. There's not one mention of the waters being anything other than calm so no chaos there. " And God said let there be light ; and there was light....." Where did it come from? Obviously from the same light that God lives in and He declares it good and divided the light from the darkness and so we get night and day and not a drop of chaos on that first day of creation.

    On the second day God divided the waters making a firmament which He called heaven above the remaining waters below. No chaos there. On the third day God brought up the land thus separating the seas from it which He filled with plantlife. No chaos there. On the fourth day He created the sun, moon and stars to replace His own light. Thus He set time into seasons, hours in night and day and years to complete our time. No chaos there. On the fifth day He filled the seas and the air with life. No chaos there. On the sixth day He created all the beasts and lifeforms that inhabit the land and all to their own kind. At some point after that He created a man and then a woman to have dominion over all the others. No chaos there. On the seventh day God rested as His work of creation was finished. The creation of life on this planet was complete, each to its own kind. No chaos there.

    God then planted a garden, quite distinguishable from the rest of the planet into which He placed the man now formed. It was a figure and type of God's dwelling and upon it the destiny of all men would stand or fall this proved by what was to come, something that God saw before any creation took effect. The knowledge of good and evil hung on a tree which God declared off bounds otherwise another effect, death, would fall on any that ate of its fruit. The woman was persuaded that God's word meant nothing, that she would not see death, and so she ate of the fruit without discussing the matter with him who was her partner as well as her head. She persuaded Adam to have a go too since no death whatever that was had not occurred and he followed suit. At that point there is still no chaos.

    Chaos began when God saught Adam and found the pair trying to hide from Him. The fruit had put fear into their systems and in any supposed innocence found themselves completely naked and God saw it immediately. In compassion He gave them clothing but yet did not forgive them, why? Because having made the ruling inside the type and shadow of heaven they couldn't stay there because of their sin and so with a curse they were put out of the garden. The curse been put on all creation meant that all lifeforms now had enemies when once they hadn't and so death became the norm for all and any creatures of land and sea. Since Adam and Eve had no children at that point violence among the other creatures started first and spread to man as his offspring emerged. That got to the stage where God had had enough for there was nothing but violence coming from the fallen nature of all things. The chaos that ensued came to a head with what we call the flood in which only Noah and his family survived along with selected animals.

    There was nothing created that was not created by the Lord Jesus Christ Who is God. John tells us that.

    Jesus Christ is the Head of the man and man is the head of the woman in the order of creation. That doesn't make women inferior to men as women have a much superior role to play by the bearing of children. It doesn't change the fact that man is the head of a family, is responsible for the care of his wife and his children.

    In the case of Proverbs 8; 1.... we find what is common in our language, in this case wisdom, for something to be called in the feminine. We call many things as her, such as cars, boats, planes or anything else why? Because as men we are the head of whatever the subject might be and so in general we give it a feminine title.

    God is Father, Son and Holy Spirit. One complete Being with three distinct functions and Personalities yet One God. This is proved time and again throughout Scripture.

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