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Thread: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

  1. #1

    Default On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    I'm curious.

    For the Muslims (or non-Muslims who sympathize with Islam) on this board: What do you call Islam's strengths compared with the other Abrahamic traditions?

    For the non-Muslims who aren't sympathetic to Islam: What does it lack that the other traditions have?

    Complain or not, Islam is here in the West. It's around the world. For the faithful, is that to be cheered or to be feared?

  2. #2
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Anounder,

    Well, since the Bible tells us that there is only one way into God's peace and that through Jesus Christ, it is clear that Islam has no part of that. Its aim is world domination by defeating Christians and Jews and who but the chief enemy of God wants to do that?

  3. #3

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Islam wants to destroy the planet.
    Then move to Moon and destroy it.
    Then move the whole galaxy and destroy it too.
    Then find God and, yes, you guessed it, destroy Him too!

  4. #4

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Ignorant trolls are going to love this thread.

  5. #5

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    I don't know about its strengths, but its main weakness is that, like all religions, it's entirely made up nonsense and about as real as any other work of fiction.

  6. #6

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    I don't know about its strengths, but its main weakness is that, like all religions, it's entirely made up nonsense and about as real as any other work of fiction.
    You say that, and yet after years of bombings, interloping, and otherwise interfering Muslims look like they've seen what the secular land of the West is selling aren't too pleased. Rejecting it even. They show bravery if nothing else. I'm reminded of how the Soviets tried so hard to stamp out the Russian Orthodox yet in the end their faith tradition looks to be on a comeback.

  7. #7

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anounder View Post
    You say that, and yet after years of bombings, interloping, and otherwise interfering Muslims look like they've seen what the secular land of the West is selling aren't too pleased. Rejecting it even. They show bravery if nothing else. I'm reminded of how the Soviets tried so hard to stamp out the Russian Orthodox yet in the end their faith tradition looks to be on a comeback.
    You and TheLeft appear to be talking at cross-purposes. Part of the problem is your OP. Strengths and weaknesses in what sense? TheLeft claims lack of factuality as a weakness. Your response is to refer to Islam's resilience. Yet an ideology can be both resilient and based in the non-factual.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  8. #8

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anounder View Post
    You say that, and yet after years of bombings, interloping, and otherwise interfering Muslims look like they've seen what the secular land of the West is selling aren't too pleased. Rejecting it even. They show bravery if nothing else. I'm reminded of how the Soviets tried so hard to stamp out the Russian Orthodox yet in the end their faith tradition looks to be on a comeback.
    Plenty of Muslims in officially Islamic countries have realized the same thing though, and have quietly left the faith. There is a not-insignificant apostasy movement going on, with those people affected mostly becoming atheist from what I hear. Of course, it's not really advertised because a) these people risk getting killed or at the very least ostracized or put on medication by those around them, and b) it doesn't fit the world view of either traditional Muslims or Islamophilic Westerners.
    The massive increase in Islamic fanaticism and terrorism over the last few decades might be a decadent echo of the religious fanaticism in the (European-) Christian world around the time of the Reformation and the Thirty Years War, which as we know was followed by Enlightenment etc.

  9. #9
    Carmen Sylva's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Islam has the same weakness as all abrahamic religions:

    Monotheism:

    Only one god, so only one truth, so everything else must also be wrong, Intolerance against others is the consequence.
    Proud Non-Citizen / My Mods


  10. #10

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carmen Sylva View Post
    Islam has the same weakness as all abrahamic religions:

    Monotheism:

    Only one god, so only one truth, so everything else must also be wrong, Intolerance against others is the consequence.
    Monotheism doesn't imply that "everything else must also be wrong".

  11. #11

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    At times strength, at times weakness, but also defining feature, and reason why I consider it a threat, is it pervasiveness. It has commandments and comments to more aspects of life than any other current major religion.

    This means that in multicultural environment, muslims are less prone to assimilate and tend to form ghettos. In modern society, where social cohesion is eroded in favor of individualism, this cohesion and sense of belonging can be very attractive to certain kinds of people, leading to conversions and especially radicalisation. However, it also leads to problems between muslims in areas where various sects coexist. It's no coincidence that most of the victims of islamic terror are muslims...but a bomb going off in Kabul just won't make news the same way stabbing in Berlin does.

    And the more people do things after books written by or about a 6th century arabic barabrian, the more will society slip toward the barbarism and ignorance of 6th century Arabia.

  12. #12
    Abdülmecid I's Avatar ¡Ay Carmela!
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    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    The dimensions of the Orthodox revival in the Russian Federation have been grossly exaggerated. Religious piety is rather superficial and essentially an adherence to social conventions, originating from a somewhat restored Patriarchate, while the state administration collapsed, and the traditional link between the Orthodoxy and the Russian national identity. Doubtlessly, religious fervour has increased, since the fall of the Soviet Union and the sidelining of Communism, in general, and Marxist atheism, specifically. Nonetheless, the trend has already started a slight reversal, while neither the clergy nor Orthodoxy ever reached the levels of influence, power and fundamentalism they possessed under the Czarist regime, even if we take the "obscurantist" '90s, under Boris Yeltsin, into account.
    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    The massive increase in Islamic fanaticism and terrorism over the last few decades might be a decadent echo of the religious fanaticism in the (European-) Christian world around the time of the Reformation and the Thirty Years War, which as we know was followed by Enlightenment etc.
    The decline of the Islamic faith has already been well documented. Turkey is the most prominent example, despite the government effort's to negate the trend, in order to increase its domestic popularity. However, the same phenomenon can be observed in the entirety of the Arab world, with the percentages of religiosity in a slow but gradual retreat, especially among the youth. This data is not surprising, considering the shrinking illiteracy and the growing urbanisation. Even the descendants of Muslim immigrants to Europe become less religious, since their quality of life improves, while they come in contact with modern perspectives and ideas, which render the religious prejudices of their ancestors obsolete and socially uncomfortable. The sudden outbursts of fanaticism and bigotry can usually be explained as manifestations of popular anger or despair, as a result of political violence and especially financial misery (the Middle East in particular has been very harshely affected by global warming and the subsequent draughts, as well as deindustrialisation). For instance, the only exception of the Eye's graph concerns Yemen, an impoverished country that has basically disintegrated, since the Arab Spring and the civil war of 2014.

  13. #13

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Monotheism doesn't imply that "everything else must also be wrong".

    You are right, the abrahamic faiths do not imply anything. They flat out state anybody who doesn't follow their religion is wrong and to be killed/converted/enslaved depending on how strong the religion is within the auhority of the nation at the given time.

    1st ing commandment, it's pretty damn clear. Polytheistic and non abrahamic religions have no place in their worldview.

  14. #14

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    You are right, the abrahamic faiths do not imply anything. They flat out state anybody who doesn't follow their religion is wrong and to be killed/converted/enslaved depending on how strong the religion is within the auhority of the nation at the given time.
    1st ing commandment, it's pretty damn clear. Polytheistic and non abrahamic religions have no place in their worldview.
    Deep.

  15. #15

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    Deep.
    Allow me to demonstrate. If there is heaven and hell, and non-believers go to hell, then anything you do to convert them is actually beneficial to them. Including torture and murder.

  16. #16

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    The simple fact is that religion gives power to the powerless, this is the strength of religion and is also the reason it is so easily corrupted.

  17. #17

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by athanaric View Post
    Plenty of Muslims in officially Islamic countries have realized the same thing though, and have quietly left the faith. There is a not-insignificant apostasy movement going on, with those people affected mostly becoming atheist from what I hear. Of course, it's not really advertised because a) these people risk getting killed or at the very least ostracized or put on medication by those around them, and b) it doesn't fit the world view of either traditional Muslims or Islamophilic Westerners.
    And there are also Muslims who, while having not left the faith, take a more liberal and less restrictive view of their faith. These Muslims too, keep rather quiet. For example, if they don't think the Koran is the unaltered word of Allah, but just a book written by faithful men, they are going to keep that idea to themselves. But they still might think ofnthrmselges as Muslims.

    I wonder if atheism wasn't more common in the past than we think. Atheist in medieval Europe wouldnhage kept a very low profile too.


    The massive increase in Islamic fanaticism and terrorism over the last few decades might be a decadent echo of the religious fanaticism in the (European-) Christian world around the time of the Reformation and the Thirty Years War, which as we know was followed by Enlightenment etc.
    The 30 Years War had political over tones. Catholic France, for example, did not come on the side of the Catholic Habsburg, but on the side of the Protestants. And Protestant Denmark fought on the he side ofnthr Catholic league at the end, although earlier they did fight on the Protestant side.

    Although often called a religious war, it was really a war between anti-Habsburg forces and the Habsburgs and their allies, with the religion triggering the war.

    There is a difference between the violence of the Reformation and 30 Years War and that of Muslims fanaticis. The 30 years War violence was mostly ndone by countries and their armies, and a lot of the violence was done by mercenaries who hadn't paid. Islamic violence is often done by individuals and groups of individuals, and most of itnis not associated with a Muslim government. And most of the violence in the Reformation was directed against other Christian groups. And was confined to Christian lands, while a lot of Muslim violence is against non Muslims in non Muslim lands.

    Also, you don't see the religiously sanctioned rape in the Reformation and 30 Years War that you see committed by ISIS and Boko Haram. Also, you didn't see in the Christian violence civilians and children being specially targeted the way Muslim groups do.

  18. #18

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post

    Also, you don't see the religiously sanctioned rape in the Reformation and 30 Years War that you see committed by ISIS and Boko Haram. Also, you didn't see in the Christian violence civilians and children being specially targeted the way Muslim groups do.
    You need to go back and look at history. I suggest you start with the capture of Jerusalem by the crusaders and the Albigensian crusade. Also it's pretty stupid to try and highlight the use of rape in conflict by groups like isis and say "look, bad muslims" when rape as a weapon of war and control has been practiced by all cultures and religions. it's only the past 70 years that western nations have decided it might be a bad idea

  19. #19

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anounder View Post
    I'm curious.

    For the Muslims (or non-Muslims who sympathize with Islam) on this board: What do you call Islam's strengths compared with the other Abrahamic traditions?

    For the non-Muslims who aren't sympathetic to Islam: What does it lack that the other traditions have?

    Complain or not, Islam is here in the West. It's around the world. For the faithful, is that to be cheered or to be feared?
    Islam's strengths:

    1. It promoted a sense of brotherhood and unity among Muslims.

    2. The rules and what it takes to be a Muslim are simplenand easy to follow.

    3. Islam officially supports charity.



    Disadvantages

    A. A history of violence against non Muslims that goes back to the earliest Muslims and even to the founder of Islam, Muhammad. This historical violence gives an example that modern fanatical Muslims can follow and use to justifyntheir actions.

    B. Muslim avowed belief of superiority over all other religions, and an intolerance to treat other religions as equal (not unique to Islam, but still very strong in modern Islam)

    C. Strict adherence to a sacred book that often says conflicting things, but lacks a chronology and is haphazardly organized, organized neither by theme, topic, or chronology. This allows people to interpret what the Koran says as they wish. The Koran talks about both intolerance and violence against non Muslims and tolerance toward monotheistic non Muslims, which Muslims choose which passage to follow*.

    (*Muslims do have a belief that later passages cancelled out earlier ones. But since there is no clear established chronology in the Koran itself, it it is merely a matter of scholarly opinion which is the earlier passage, which is not binding believers.). Many/most Muslims believ the Koran is the verbatim word of Allah, which makes it difficult to question anything it says.

    D. A bias against women is enshrined in the Koran and the traditional rules and regulations of Islam such as Sharia law. Only one woman is mentioned by name in the Koran. Allowing men to have more than one wife but not women to have more than one husband, and having some inherit more than daughters for example. A woman's legally testimony counts less than that ofnmen, it takes 2 women to equal the testimony of one man in Islam..

    E. A commonly accepted practice in Islam that it is OK to lie on the behalf of Islam, which means you don't know that if the answer the Muslim gives you is the truth or somethng the Muslim says because he thinks the truth will could cause problems for Islam and Muslims. This results in an ingrained dishonesty in Islam. For example, Muslims will tell Christians that Muslims believe in Jesus. What Muslim's won't tell Christians is that Jesus is not honored more than any other prophet in the Koran, and is not as honored and regarded as highly as Muhaammad, and the Muslims believe in Jesus the same way they believe in any other prophet like Moses.

    In general, the biggest problem with Islam is that it concentrated on providing specific guidelines rather than general principles. This was an advantage in the past, since it made Islam simpler to follow, but creates an used today, since Islam guidelines were created in the middlenages, and are often heavily out of date in the modern world..

    F. Islam regards all other religions as inferior, and that all others should be subservient to Muslims. The legally testimony of non Muslims officially accounts for less than that of.Muslims, for example.

    G. Islam does not allow people to leave once they have adopted Islam. Islam had a no leaving policy.


    Note, Christianity shares many of the same disadvantages of Islam butnoften to a lesser degree. Many fundamentalist Christians view of the Bible.is not much different from Muslims view of the Koran. But because ofnthr chronological structures of the Bible, they are not inspire by the Old Testament commands to the Jews to kill the Canaanites, since those commands apply only to the past to a specific time and place. Since there is no chronological setting in the Koran, the Koran's commands to fight against non Muslim and conquer them don't have a similar limitation, and do serve as commands for modern day Muslims like ISIS to follow. Much of the problems of Islam would be lessened if the majority of Muslims accepted the idea that the Koran was just a book written by people. And that the Koran is not perfect. Likewise, that Muhammad was just a man and full of human flaws, and far from perfect.

  20. #20

    Default Re: On Islam's strength's and weaknesses.

    Quote Originally Posted by 95thrifleman View Post
    You need to go back and look at history. I suggest you start with the capture of Jerusalem by the crusaders and the Albigensian crusade. Also it's pretty stupid to try and highlight the use of rape in conflict by groups like isis and say "look, bad muslims" when rape as a weapon of war and control has been practiced by all cultures and religions. it's only the past 70 years that western nations have decided it might be a bad idea
    You are the one that needs to read history. While the crusaders went around killing people, the capture of Jerusalem did not invovle massive rape, norndidnrhe Albigensisn crusade. Also, there is a huge difference of what happened 900 to 700 years ago, and what is happening today, it wasn't justnin there last 70 years that there has been a difference. The last war in the West were religion was a major factor ws the 30 Years War, and that was more than 300 years ago, not 70. One of the things that contemporaries noted was that whil Muslim Turks both raped and killed, the Crusaders only killed, but did not rape.

    Islam (?Muhammad) legally sanctioned the rape of slaves, Christianity never legally sanctioned rape as Islam did. (Sex with a slave against her will is still rape.). That others like Christians raped their slaves I am sure happened, but that it not the same thing as when the founder of your religion says it is ok to rape your slaves, as was the case in Islam. ISIS and other groups do what they do following the example of Muhammad as set down in writings by Muslims themselves. There is no indication that the Muslims who recorded these actions by Muhammad were at all disturbed by them, which meant they did not think these things were very wrong. It as OK in their eyes to kill someone simply because they criticized you, to rob, enslave, and rape you enemies as Muhammad did.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; August 23, 2019 at 07:08 PM.

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