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Thread: How true is the Bible?

  1. #141
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    So, as my original question asks how true is the Bible, I turn to events that are happening now just as Scripture foretold. That there would be a great falling away in the churches has already happened and the one world system is alive and well although not yet complete but we can see it in progress. Now Joe Bloggs may not recognise these events because he has turned away from the Bible or never read it but for those that do we can see them roll out just as Scripture tells. Jesus once hinted that man could see by the weather patterns what the day would be like yet could not see his part in them. Today the hue and cry is how long this world has got left so at least there is the tiniest agreement with Scripture that this planet will disolve by fire. The only disagreement is why it will happen?

  2. #142

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?



    The irony is that the person in question was very cynical towards religion. Yet he made a separation of the holy and the imperfect man led organization.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  3. #143
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    You joined in defense of a side who wanted to remove Constantine from the process of making Christianity the Official Religion of the Empire. While he didn't settle down the final brick, he made a big part of the work of at least making Christianity the favored religion of the Empire, which gave room for Theodosius.
    No, I corrected foolish and simple errors of fact in your poorly written and insulting posts. You are welcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    What are you doing on TW game forums if you treat references to TW games in a pejorative manner?
    Liking a game does not make it historical fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post

    Finally you're slowly getting there.
    More insults? Quite amusing from a poster who does not know basic historical facts.
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  4. #144
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    fkizz,

    Isn't it strange that Orwell's quote is being activated under the name Antifa who seem hellbent on attacking literally and physically anyone who doesn't agree with them. They are doing exactly what they're supposed to be against, appear to be well organised and financed and yet seem impervious to arrest and one has to ask why?

  5. #145

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    No, I corrected foolish and simple errors of fact in your poorly written and insulting posts. You are welcome.
    (routinely) Cutting the role of Emperor Constantine from the process of Christianity becoming accepted in Rome and eventually becoming State Religion is not good tutoring, sorry. It's a Historically incomplete narration of the process of Christianity becoming the State Religion.

    Just because Emperor Thedosius did the "finishing blow" does not take the protagonism away from Emperor Constantine's, who among many other things, allowed for the First Council of Nicea.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Liking a game does not make it historical fact.
    Battle of River Frigidus is a Historical fact.
    Liking a TW game does not mean all the historical references in the TW game are wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    fkizz,

    Isn't it strange that Orwell's quote is being activated under the name Antifa who seem hellbent on attacking literally and physically anyone who doesn't agree with them. They are doing exactly what they're supposed to be against, appear to be well organised and financed and yet seem impervious to arrest and one has to ask why?
    Basics,

    Orwell has many interesting quotes, if you could specify.
    As for Antifa, it's not surprising at all, it's as if they almost seem to be controlled opposition for a while now, their routine "protests" at G20 meetings are often meant to take legitimacy away from someone who has legit criticism for G20 topics, for they will be associated with looters and considered one, rather than a genuine critic.

    Their dislike for Christianity while pandering to every other religion except that one also speaks for itself and leaves a lot of clues behind.
    Last edited by fkizz; July 24, 2019 at 04:22 AM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  6. #146

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    (routinely) Cutting the role of Emperor Constantine from the process of Christianity becoming accepted in Rome and eventually becoming State Religion is not good tutoring, sorry. It's a Historically incomplete narration of the process of Christianity becoming the State Religion.
    Cyclops is correct is in stating that Constantine did not make Christianity an official religion, to claim that is just wrong, no debate on it.

    However, he would be wrong to imply that all Constantine did was to continue the same policy of toleration that were shown by previous emperors, Constantine did far more than that. Toward the end of his reign, he showed a favoritism toward Christianity that previous emperors did not. Showing mere tolerance and actively supporting and showing favoritism are not the same thing. Constantine's favoritism showed others which way the imperial wind was blowing, and the smart operators which band wagon to get on. While he did not make it an "official" religion, his actions laid the foundation for a later generation to make it official. Even Julian's attempt to revive paganism was a failure.

    Just as important, while some may question if Constantine himself ever became a Christian, his sons without a doubt were Christians, and since Constantine ultimately was responsible for their education, it implies that he promoted his heirs being Christians, ensuring that imperial favoritism wasn't just a one time thing by Constantine. So I see your point, that even if Constantine did not make Christianity the official religion of the empire, he set in motions actions that eventually did make it.

    Battle of River Frigidus is a Historical fact.
    Liking a TW game does not mean all the historical references in the TW game are wrong.
    No, but even though some gamer creators try very hard to be historically accurate in their games, games usually are not regarded accurate historical sources, and typically you are better off siting some more respected historical sources.



    Basics,

    Orwell has many interesting quotes, if you could specify.
    As for Antifa, it's not surprising at all, it's as if they almost seem to be controlled opposition for a while now, their routine "protests" at G20 meetings are often meant to take legitimacy away from someone who has legit criticism for G20 topics, for they will be associated with looters and considered one, rather than a genuine critic.

    Their dislike for Christianity while pandering to every other religion except that one also speaks for itself and leaves a lot of clues behind.
    Their dislike for Christianity may stem from the fact that Christianity is still the world's number one religion, so they concentrate their attack on it. They also probably feel that trying to persuade some other groups, like Muslims, through argument is a hopeless cause, while in the west they might still persuade many people who might have a tentative leaning.

    Their bias is clearly shown - I have heard repeatedly these same people talk about how the 40 year gap between the first Gospels and the time of Jesus is some kind of big deal, yet completely accept the 100 year gap between the first biography of Muhammad and the time of Muhammad, and the 400 year gap between the first biography of Buddha and Buddha as unimportant. The people who question the historicity of Jesus do not question the historicity of Muhammad or Buddha the same way, and the same people who criticism the historicity of the Bible accept the Koran and Muslim historical accounts the same way. Most of them don't even know that the word "Mecca" is never even mentioned in the Koran, nor does the Koran ever explicitly state when or where Mohammed was born, or the name of his father or mother or wife(s). All the so called historical references to Mohammed are based on Muslim interpretations of Koranic passages, not the explicit wording of the passages themselves.

  7. #147
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    fkizz,

    I was using your quote at the bottom of your page by Orwell as an example to emphasise how correct he was.

    Common Soldier,

    The thread that binds all these religions and non-religions is their hatred for Christianity which is exactly what Jesus said and seen in Holy Scripture. It's a soft target and surely the most important target because it like its God hold men responsible and answereable to God for their actions. Christians today do not fight physical wars as they had to in the past, leaving God Himself to be the Avenger as is written. Today there are no Christian nations, nor may I say ever any.

  8. #148

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    Toward the end of his reign, he showed a favoritism toward Christianity that previous emperors did not. Showing mere tolerance and actively supporting and showing favoritism are not the same thing. Constantine's favoritism showed others which way the imperial wind was blowing, and the smart operators which band wagon to get on. While he did not make it an "official" religion, his actions laid the foundation for a later generation to make it official. Even Julian's attempt to revive paganism was a failure.
    Well at least you got the point. It's wrong to dismiss any link between Constantine and Christianity's ascent to Imperial Echelons, and Cyclops was on the side that claimed Constantine didn't even bother to promote Christianity.
    Because without Constantine having set the machine gears in motion, Theodosius wouldn't have political capital to set Christianity as the State Religion in official and formal terms. Theodosius inherited Constantine's effort in this.

    Point being, the continuous refusal of Constantine role in the process was Historically disonest; even if formally speaking in Christianity achieved the endgame of State Religion under Theodosius, finishing an at least decades (to not say centuries) long process, rather than implying a process exclusive his rule.


    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    No, but even though some gamer creators try very hard to be historically accurate in their games, games usually are not regarded accurate historical sources, and typically you are better off siting some more respected historical sources.
    Was an Easter Egg in the debate. Given this is a TW Videogames Forum, making a quote from a TW videogame wouldn't hurt much. My point being, anyone who played Attila TW would know about Theodosius, it's not "hidden knowledge".

    Now on Sources, there are some claims that need to be Sourced, but when when it's for Source that Constantine was important in Christianity's ascent to Imperial Echelons..Not only it can be easily checked on Wikipedia, it's also typically found even on elementary school sylabus. I didn't want to be rude and say this, but well.
    What next, Source that Julius Caesar was a military commander?
    Things can enter Spoonfeeding ground, as opposed to Sourcing.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    The thread that binds all these religions and non-religions is their hatred for Christianity which is exactly what Jesus said and seen in Holy Scripture. It's a soft target and surely the most important target because it like its God hold men responsible and answereable to God for their actions. Christians today do not fight physical wars as they had to in the past, leaving God Himself to be the Avenger as is written. Today there are no Christian nations, nor may I say ever any.
    I'd say that since Christians kinda pride themselves on being or trying to be meek, they more or less appear as low hanging fruit or "easy bounties" and invite such types.
    When Christians are meek, they attack. When finally patience breaks (because it's hard for everyone to be a Saint) they play the victim opressed by the Christians, often invoking historical events from 600 years ago.
    Last edited by fkizz; July 25, 2019 at 07:42 AM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  9. #149
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    fkizz,

    In the middle of reading a book by a guy called Vox Day it been written in response to what he calls the Unholy trinity of Dawkins, Harris and Hitchens, the book called the Irrational Atheist, he shows that there weren't many religious wars compared to all the wars ever fought. So, as you say it turns out that where there was a war of religion involving Christianity the opponents always seemed to claim victimhood. The claim that religion, specifically Christianity, is the cause of most wars is just untrue.

  10. #150

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    fkizz,
    The claim that religion, specifically Christianity, is the cause of most wars is just untrue.
    Fair enough, I actually agree. But what about cases like the 30 years war, or Charles V sack of Rome?
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  11. #151
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Fair enough, I actually agree. But what about cases like the 30 years war, or Charles V sack of Rome?
    fkizz,

    I had to look that one up and it appears that it was more about power over religion than religion itself. Both in fact were more about power than religion and the casualties came more from famins and disease than anything else during that ime. Again I am only getting that from Wkki as I know practically nothing of that era.

  12. #152
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Watched RC Sproul discuss his talk with Carl Sagan about the origins of life on youtube and it was slam/dunk for Sproul as he tore Sagan apart.

  13. #153
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Just come off the thread about reporting a friend for racism or other infidelities and the thought struck me that the One true Friend one can have is Jesus Christ because when one confesses to Him the one surety is that He will never divulge anything to another soul. That surely is the friendship we can all do with.

  14. #154

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Fair enough, I actually agree. But what about cases like the 30 years war, or Charles V sack of Rome?

    The Sack of Rome had nothing to do with religion. The sack was due to the Imperial troops, who were mostly Catholic themselves, having not been paid. Money, not religion, was the cause. And the conflict Charles V had with the Pope was politics, not religious. It was bout the amount of political control Charles V and the Pope would have in Italy, not znout theology or religion. Such a conflict would have arisen even if the Pope been strictly some secular ruler.

    As for 30 Years War, again politics again played a major role, as well as religious factors, as shown by the fact that Catholic France fought on behalf of the Protestants.

  15. #155
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Now there's another Biblical truth, Money. Being the root of all evil although not the original cause of evil, it surely has added enormously to the faults of both religion and nonreligion the world over. Those that don't have much are very much in the hands of them that have plenty or more and that cuts across all societies in every nation on the planet. Why, even the offence of the Cross has become less important in so-called churches that are supposed to preach it as the preacher has been replaced by the salesman who seems forever to be calling out for more money rather than lost souls.

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    Really makes you think.

  17. #157
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Prodromos,

    Words are a beautiful thing to have yet they are the source of both good and evil when facts get distorted as you have pointed out.

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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    The many truths in the Bible have been manipulated to support many wars.

    Sadly in many places in the OT there are passages celebrating war, eg Judges, Joshua etc. It recalls a time of fierce tribal warfare. Several cities are completely destroyed and the entire population slaughtered. In I Samuel 15 God tells Saul through Samuel to slaughter men women and children, and when he disobeys he is punished.

    This was the truth for a fierce tribal people making a place for their children at the expense of the children of others. Even when the Israelites were a settled people in their time of Exile they sang of happily dashing the Babylonians babies to death against rocks. In a time of bitter suffering they wanted bitter revenge on their enemies and thought their God did too.

    Likewise there's a lot of stuff about evil women in parts of the OT, butchering harlots and priestesses of "foreign" religions.

    We live in a time of peace unknown to our ancestors. We think God wants peace for us. Jesus seems to preach peace and justice, i thinkhe was responding to the warlike stuff in the OT with love and gentleness. Likewise her preaches kindness to women and men, and even an unusual (for the time) level of equality. The stricture against divorce was probably to prevent men from discarding women too easily from marriage (divorce laws favoured men at the time and left women penniless).

    Christian rulers often disregarded Jesus' teaching about turning cheeks to wage their wars as their pagan ancestors and Islamic brothers did in confidence of divine approval. Only the Orthodox East Romans treated war as murder and begged forgiveness for their victories.

    There are may truths in the Bible, not one. These truths were written by people who loved their God and I think expressed their beliefs in good faith, but their times were different to ours. The rule about circumcision changed, maybe the rule about genocide changed too. If "for God all things are possible" then its possible God changed the rules from the time of Deborah of the time of Bibi.
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  19. #159

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    The many truths in the Bible have been manipulated to support many wars.

    Sadly in many places in the OT there are passages celebrating war, eg Judges, Joshua etc. It recalls a time of fierce tribal warfare. Several cities are completely destroyed and the entire population slaughtered. In I Samuel 15 God tells Saul through Samuel to slaughter men women and children, and when he disobeys he is punished.
    Saul spared the rich nobles because he was bribed to, I don't see any indication Saul spared.poor women and children.. Saul spared people out of greed, not compassion. But the Jews were ordered to slaughter everyone, including women and children, in those passages.

    This was the truth for a fierce tribal people making a place for their children at the expense of the children of others. Even when the Israelites were a settled people in their time of Exile they sang of happily dashing the Babylonians babies to death against rocks. In a time of bitter suffering they wanted bitter revenge on their enemies and thought their God did too.

    Likewise there's a lot of stuff about evil women in parts of the OT, butchering harlots and priestesses of "foreign" religions.
    While the Bible did complain about harlots, I don't recall any passage where priestess were especially targeted for killing any more than the priests. Can you perhaps.recall the passages?

    We live in a time of peace unknown to our ancestors. We think God wants peace for us. Jesus seems to preach peace and justice, i thinkhe was responding to the warlike stuff in the OT with love and gentleness. Likewise her preaches kindness to women and men, and even an unusual (for the time) level of equality. The stricture against divorce was probably to prevent men from discarding women too easily from marriage (divorce laws favoured men at the time and left women penniless).

    Christian rulers often disregarded Jesus' teaching about turning cheeks to wage their wars as their pagan ancestors and Islamic brothers did in confidence of divine approval. Only the Orthodox East Romans treated war as murder and begged forgiveness for their victories.
    And the Eastern Orthodox Romans were completely overrun by the militant Muslims. Those rulers who practiced turning the other cheek were conquered by those that did not. In any case, turning the other cheek applied to our actions as individuals, not necessarily those actions performed by the government. An individual has no right to kill someone unless it is self defense. But that same individual does has the right as an executioner carrying out a lawful execution. As an individual I should be expected to suffer p the blow, but as an official of the state, it is my duty to punish the guilty.

    But most Christians have not lived up to the high ideals of Jesus, that is very true.

    There are may truths in the Bible, not one. These truths were written by people who loved their God and I think expressed their beliefs in good faith, but their times were different to ours. The rule about circumcision changed, maybe the rule about genocide changed too. If "for God all things are possible" then its possible God changed the rules from the time of Deborah of the time of Bibi.
    That is true , there are many truths in the Bible. When we say the Bible is "true" we should ask which parts, and what truths. The Bible is composed of many different books written by different people and at different times. What is true for one book, isn't necessarily true for another.

  20. #160
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Common Soldier,

    When we say that there are many truths in the Bible does that also mean there are many untruths in it? If that is the case then we cannot say it is the Word of God because God cannot lie nor has any ned to lie. The Bible is a record of His workings from creation till now and yes even beyond. So, the men who did the writing did so being inspired by the Spirit in them to demonstrate the power that God has over His creation in every aspect. Of course He could have chiselled out the words Himself as He did with the Ten Commandments but then His power to convince would have been lost without the input of man brought to faith throughout the ages. In other words the writers are the messengers carrying His Gospel to the world on His behalf from creation on and so cannot be taken with a pinch of salt if saving grace is to work. It's His Gospel that is the power of God to save and if that Gospel is impaired by error then salvation cannot take place, why? Because what we read or hear of Him has to be by and of faith, a faith that is His gift to give through Jesus Christ our Lord.

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