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Thread: How true is the Bible?

  1. #261
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    $10,000 says you think aliens exist

  2. #262

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    $10,000 says you think aliens exist
    Without actual scientific evidence? No sorry, I guess I'll be PMing you with my PayPal details...

  3. #263

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    Without actual scientific evidence? No sorry, I guess I'll be PMing you with my PayPal details...
    So you believe that, in a universe as near-infinite as ours, life originated on, and is exclusively limited to, the planet earth? Glad to see that you have a view which is more consonant with scriptural fundamentalism than it is with the reasoning which doesn't place the earth at the physical or ideological centre of the universe. Not that any of this actually matters. The narrative of Genesis is is an allegory not an historical account: its purpose is no more proved redundant by the lack of talking snakes than is Aesop's fable of the ant and the grasshopper proved redundant by the author's application of human characteristics to ants and grasshoppers.
    Last edited by ep1c_fail; October 03, 2019 at 02:48 PM.

  4. #264

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    Anyone found any talking snakes yet? No? Funny that... it's almost as if they don't exist...
    No one has found any evidence of 440 ft Treasure ships, does that mean they don't exist? Nor have the remains of Christopher Columbus ships been found, that kind of suggest Columbus voyage never happened, right?

    We haven't found any evidence of angels with a flaming sword guarding a fruit tree in some garden . Exactly what kind of evidence would you expect to find for a talking serpent? . Many cultures depict dragons, and many times the dragons, which were regarded as a type of sperpent, were depicted as capable of human speech. Tales of talking serpents exist from various cultures ranging from germanic Europe to the Chinese.
    u
    Last edited by Common Soldier; October 03, 2019 at 02:14 PM.

  5. #265

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by ep1c_fail View Post
    So you believe that, in a universe as near-infinite as ours, life originated on, and is exclusively limited to, the planet earth? Glad to see that you have a view which is more consonant with scriptural fundamentalism than it is with deductive reasoning. Not that any of this actually matters. The narrative of Genesis is is an allegory not an historical account: its purpose is no more proved redundant by the lack of talking snakes than is Aesop's fable of the grasshopper and the ant proved redundant by the lack of begging grasshoppers.
    Millions can buy a weekly lottery ticket, yet there might srill be no lottery winners that week. Unless we know precisely how life arose, we cannor rule out the possibility that Earth is thr only planet that has life, despite the vastness od the universe.

    Despite billions having been spent, no life has been detected outside of the earth. And the excuses that have been made, and the way way many have leaped at the remotest possibilities have made the belief in extraterrestrial life as a substitute for religious beliefs. Trying to invoke such pathetic explanations as a "galatic zoo" for the Fermi paradox just shows how desperate these people are, as was the hostility many treated Peter Ward's book "Rare Earth".


    Until we actually find solid evidence for extraterrestrials al.life, we cannor rule out earth being the only planet with life.. After all, each one of us.is.the result of any unlikely event. Despite the fact there are millions of sperms, the chances any.one sperm fertilizing an egg is remote, and despite all the sperm, it sometime doesn't happen at all..


    But I agree with you that the intent of the Genesis, at least parts.of it, were not intended to be historical, but rather allegorical. If we had a time machine. I don't think the author of Genesis.woils expect us to see some nude woman having a conversation with a serpent. The creation story was not trying to tell a literal story, but simply to emphasize some theological points. The writer talking about Day and Night before even the sun was created clearly was talking allegorically, not 24 he literal days.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; October 03, 2019 at 03:06 PM.

  6. #266
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Cyclops,

    The Passover feast lasted for seven or eight days so neither would be wrong in the same sense that we regard Xmas Eve to be as important as Xmas Day. That I don't know the exact dates doesn't matter to me because the fact that the event is authenticated by more than one explanation is enough for me to believe what happened during the feast Days. These are good questions that I am not learned enough to answer as precisely another more learned might do but it is sufficient for me that they happened and for me to believe that they happened.
    I agree Jesus had a dinner with his followers just before he died. However the fact there is more than one tradition about the dinner shows it is humans remembering the event, not God dictating it.

    Passover Seder is the feast where the deliverance from Egypt is commemorated. Its occurs at the start of the week of Passover. John says the Last Supper occurs the night before Passover Seder, the other three say its the night of Passover Seder.

    You've said you don't know, that's a brave and good answer. I don't know either my friend. I think its because people wrote about Jesus after he died, and some of them did not know all the details or remembered them incorrectly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    No one has found any evidence of 440 ft Treasure ships, does that mean they don't exist?
    Actually IIRC the size of Zheng He' ships is controversial. They were probably the biggest in the world at that time, but yeah, the lack of evidence means the idea of 100+ metre wooden ships is unlikely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    Nor have the remains of Christopher Columbus ships been found, that kind of suggest Columbus voyage never happened, right?
    To be fair we have detailed records about the ship and its crew, including its wreck in the Caribbean. We have autographs in Columbus' own handwriting and a biography by his son, and the results of Columbus' voyages are clear in the establishment of Spanish America. Its not right to equate a figure in a religious story with a vehicle that we have so much documentary evidence for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    We haven't found any evidence of angels with a flaming sword guarding a fruit tree in some garden . Exactly what kind of evidence would you expect to find for a talking serpent? . Many cultures depict dragons, and many times the dragons, which were regarded as a type of sperpent, were depicted as capable of human speech. Tales of talking serpents exist from various cultures ranging from germanic Europe to the Chinese.
    u
    Indeed. The idea of talking animals exists in many human hearts. I think the Genesis story speaks about issues important in the Bronze and Iron Age Near east. I think it has multiple layers of meaning that accrued over millennia. Its worthy of study and not cheap derision.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  7. #267
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    I'm pretty sure the "serpent" is supposed to be Satan, not your average snake.

    Revelation 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

  8. #268

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Common Soldier View Post
    Millions can buy a weekly lottery ticket, yet there might srill be no lottery winners that week. Unless we know precisely how life arose, we cannor rule out the possibility that Earth is thr only planet that has life, despite the vastness od the universe.

    Despite billions having been spent, no life has been detected outside of the earth. And the excuses that have been made, and the way way many have leaped at the remotest possibilities have made the belief in extraterrestrial life as a substitute for religious beliefs. Trying to invoke such pathetic explanations as a "galatic zoo" for the Fermi paradox just shows how desperate these people are, as was the hostility many treated Peter Ward's book "Rare Earth".


    Until we actually find solid evidence for extraterrestrials al.life, we cannor rule out earth being the only planet with life.. After all, each one of us.is.the result of any unlikely event. Despite the fact there are millions of sperms, the chances any.one sperm fertilizing an egg is remote, and despite all the sperm, it sometime doesn't happen at all..
    The point being made is that a person can hold a reasonable belief even if that belief is not scientifically provable.

    But I agree with you that the intent of the Genesis, at least parts.of it, were not intended to be historical, but rather allegorical. If we had a time machine. I don't think the author of Genesis.woils expect us to see some nude woman having a conversation with a serpent. The creation story was not trying to tell a literal story, but simply to emphasize some theological points. The writer talking about Day and Night before even the sun was created clearly was talking allegorically, not 24 he literal days.
    Quite. One problem that we always run into in these debates is people who are unfamiliar with the text supposing that allegoric verses are to be taken literally - a problem which is confounded when certain believers in the discussion openly reject the allegoric interpretation. It then becomes necessary to explain that reading a passage literally doesn't negate its allegoric purpose; for instance if one believed that Aesop's fable of the ant and the grasshopper were literally true, that would not prevent him from understanding the message of the story.
    Last edited by ep1c_fail; October 04, 2019 at 10:40 AM.

  9. #269
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    I'm pretty sure the "serpent" is supposed to be Satan, not your average snake.
    That is certainly a Christian interpretation of Genesis. In modern Rabbinic exegesis the Eden story is seen as describing the sanctity of marriage. Original sin as a concept seems to begin as a half thought of Paul's and only really becomes mainstream Christian thought when the former Gnostic Augustine develops his cosmology. My suspicion is that its a largely Gnostic concept that Jesus the man knew little or nothing about.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  10. #270
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    Anyone found any talking snakes yet? No? Funny that... it's almost as if they don't exist...
    TheLeft,

    And yet we have birds and animals that can utter human words when taught them. As the garden in my opinion is a figure and type for heaven then we are talking about something outside the natural. We are talking about the supernatural and the events within it and so we have a tree of good and evil, a tree of life, a serpent who could talk and angels with a given order. This was alien territory for Adam and Eve as they were created outside of it yet placed inside for the purpose of God which was to open up what was to come. This was done for God's good pleasure as one of the writers tells us primarily because this is not about man but about God and about His amazing abilities. The reason man was put out of the garden was because he was persuaded that it wasn't true, that he would be as knowledgeable as God and as powerful and this is as true today as it was then in the garden.

    Now we know that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is about the future of men and women in eternity for that's the continuation of the garden events and we know the magnificent ending through the Revelation of Jesus Christ given to John some four thousand years later. It's all there leaving one to believe it or not but who can deny the purpose of the Bible and its message? If God does not exist and Jesus Christ did not rise from the dead then the whole message as Paul says is dead and buried but what kills that argument off is that every day God is drawing people to Himself somewhere in this world just exactly as the Bible tells us. The one dead in their sin cannot see it yet the one God draws to Jesus Christ finally can and each one has a testimony to prove it much to the consternation of friends and relatives. Ordinary man can't see nor understand the Supernatural but the believer can.

  11. #271

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    That is certainly a Christian interpretation of Genesis. In modern Rabbinic exegesis the Eden story is seen as describing the sanctity of marriage. Original sin as a concept seems to begin as a half thought of Paul's and only really becomes mainstream Christian thought when the former Gnostic Augustine develops his cosmology. My suspicion is that its a largely Gnostic concept that Jesus the man knew little or nothing about.
    Jesus also.used the Eden story as a describing the santicty of marriage as Gospels relate. Given that Paul confirms Jesus commands on marriage, there is no reason to doubt the Gospels portrait of Jesus using the Eden story to justify the prohibition of divorce. Likely, the Eden story and it's support of the sanctity of marriage and prohibition of general divorce was a popular view among a number of 1st century Jews. However, the Gospels are by far the oldest statement of this argument and long predate modern rabbis.

    We don't have any 1st century written accounts of Jewish religious teachers from Palestine region (Judea and Galilee). The accounts of the the Jewish religious teacher come from many centuries later - the accounts of these 1st century Jewish teachers (rabbis) are from the Talmud, which wasn't composed until the 5th century. Even the oldest part of the Talmud, the Mishnah, was from aroumd 200 AD, long after the canonical Gospels.were written.

    As for "original sin", I don't recall Jesus ever talking about in the Gospels, nor do I recall claiming Jesus did. However, since Adam was the original human, his first sin must have been the original sin, and the concept flows rather logically from the Eden story, even if the concept itself wasn't specifically mentioned until Paul, and became general Christian dogma until later still. All humans in the New Testament were regarded as sinners, that is clear, so if you don't have the concept of original sin, you have to come up with some other explanation of why all humans, not just some, need to be saved.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; October 12, 2019 at 01:08 AM. Reason: fix typos

  12. #272
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    You know that there are two concepts to the part in Genesis when the threesome were confronted by God. One, in their disobedience they realised that they were naked physically and two, Spiritually and so we get a picture of where all this was leading. The first was that they had fallen from grace and the second was that in providing them clothing from animals God was foreshadowing the rituals with which Israel would be covered but not saved from their sin. It all pointed to the " seed " promised by God in the garden, that " seed " being Jesus Christ Who in time would pay with His blood the price for sin. Such was the disobedience and disbelief that God introduced the Ten Commandments in Moses' time to further point to Jesus because no one could keep all the commandments. So from Genesis on we find faith to be the watchword right up until the eve of Jesus' return. Faith, a gift itself from God, to believe that Jesus Christ the " seed " would and had fulfilled the promise in which men and women could be saved from the curse of sin.

    The problem with the Jews as they became known, was that they worshipped the Law more than they worshipped God and they did that by adding countless further laws, some 600 I believe, so that the people were stifled, hardly able to breathe for fear of breaking any. Was it any wonder that when the people heard Jesus that they were astounded by what He said yet despite the words and the miracles fear of the Law still held sway over them even in Jesus' own family. Oh they shouted many favourable names at Him but in the end where were they on that day they put Him to death? Today most religious Jews still await their Messiah refusing to believe that He had already come in Jesus Christ revealing how much the Law still holds sway over them yet for most they really have no religion at all or if one could call it a religion, a heavy left wing bias.

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