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Thread: How true is the Bible?

  1. #381
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    It is accepted that Moses wrote the Torah
    Accepted as you accept young earth creationism. The facts say otherwise.

    Let's stick with Jerico, a fable but believed true by literalists.

    So the town is happy and prosperous and than a bunch of shoddy sheep farmers show up and claim it as theirs because their god says so. Do thay get a chance to convert (no), why would thay just pack up an leave or believe? Does the all power god send an Angel to set the record strait so they be like hey man you dudes are right how do we convert. Nope just uses power to render them defenseless so everyone and thing can be slaughtered. Even the Athenians at their most cynical and ruthless points in a total war to the knife were never that brutal to people who had actually betrayed them. Nice god you got there.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  2. #382
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    100%.

    Interestingly for young earth Creationist evolution deniers, there's the problem with certain fatal parasitic infections. Someone on the ark was very very sick indeed.
    Its a pointless argument obviously god would see to that and one presumes all the mucking out of crap as well or where all the straw you need to absorb urine would come or the food - again maybe god just dropped manna in for all the animals.
    Last edited by conon394; January 12, 2020 at 08:54 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  3. #383
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    It is accepted that Moses wrote the Torah. Whether he used scribes is not attested to yet it is possible that he oversaw what was written exactly as God relayed it to him. It doesn't diminish what is written in any way.
    It is not accepted that Moses wrote the Torah outside the faith community.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    ,

    Never thought that these were examples of Divine Justice on peoples that followed false gods? That Justice was not just for then so beware of your own situation before God.
    Sodom was destroyed because of an unspecified sin: it is not mentioned who they worshipped. Are you threatening another poster? That would be against the ToS.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Cyclops,

    When the Ark landed on dry ground that ground was still in a fallen state so anything that grew on it had the capacity to bring disease about. As for the family only Noah and Seth were accounted righteous before God so we find that one at least started the false religions that were to plague the world. Concerning the age of creation, I'm quite happy to accept my God's version simply because He made an up and running planet as well as the rest of the system as matured. To believe that it took billions of years is the only way man can grab it out of the hands of God and so it is to this day. He was there, who else was?
    Nephilim apparently, you know, the gigantic offspring of Angels and women. They were seen after the flood, and the only survivors were Noah's family, so apparently someone in the family was a Giant.

    Back to the parasites, we know that disease are not the result of demonic possession but viruses, bacteria, parasites and other conditions etc. Are you saying parasites, living things, survived inundation outside the ark? Genesis 7:23 says all life was destroyed. Either Noah and his family were host to every single parasite known to man, or the Bible told another lie.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  4. #384
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Came across this image and thought of this thread :)


  5. #385
    MaximiIian's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Never thought that these were examples of Divine Justice on peoples that followed false gods? That Justice was not just for then so beware of your own situation before God.
    So...you think genocide is a reasonable or acceptable response to differences in belief and practice? That's insane.

  6. #386
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    It is not accepted that Moses wrote the Torah outside the faith community.

    Sodom was destroyed because of an unspecified sin: it is not mentioned who they worshipped. Are you threatening another poster? That would be against the ToS.

    Nephilim apparently, you know, the gigantic offspring of Angels and women. They were seen after the flood, and the only survivors were Noah's family, so apparently someone in the family was a Giant.

    Cyclops,

    The Torah was written by Moses according to the Jews.

    Sodom and Gamorrah were both destroyed because of the homosexuality being practised there. Assuming they are angelic creatures why would they be involved in the flood drama? I am not threatening anyone, only repeating what has befallen others who disobey and disbelieve God as is written. I write what I write to see people saved not to condemn them to hell.

    Back to the parasites, we know that disease are not the result of demonic possession but viruses, bacteria, parasites and other conditions etc. Are you saying parasites, living things, survived inundation outside the ark? Genesis 7:23 says all life was destroyed. Either Noah and his family were host to every single parasite known to man, or the Bible told another lie.
    After the flood the land remained the same in its fallen state so I don't see your argument as you do of the surviving men and women being responsible for any diseases which were obviously retained in the land even under water. The water could have been just as advantageous for them. For example there would have been much flotsam and jetsam for them to linger on as well as the rotting bodies of many things floating around. And yes, thinking about it further one or two of the survivors could well have been carrying something that didn't affect them but could well affect others as the population grew again.

  7. #387
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by MaximiIian View Post
    So...you think genocide is a reasonable or acceptable response to differences in belief and practice? That's insane.
    Maximilian,

    What's insane about our Creator expecting certain standards to be observed? Aren't His rights more important then ours?

  8. #388
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    What's insane about our Creator expecting certain standards to be observed? Aren't His rights more important then ours?
    Yes well you have to believe the OT for that argument to work. But allow its true and sticking with Jericho, why no angel, no Jesus no sign from god after an ultimatum to join the Hebrews?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  9. #389
    basics's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    conon394,

    First off, Jesus is God so what Joshua heard, what Rahab heard was from Him relayed by the Holy Spirit to them regarding what to do. From the ultimatum those in Jerico chose to stand and fight from within the city which they thought was impregnable. So we read that when the spies returned Joshua and the people led by the Ark of the Covenant then crossed the Jordan as they had crossed the Red Sea forty odd years before to encircle the city. Jesus was there OK for if one recalls His statement that where any two or three are present in His name He will be there amongst them as were Joshua, Caleb and Rahab whom we know were Godly people.

  10. #390
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    First off, Jesus is God so what Joshua heard
    Well that is backward application of Christian thinking. Its pretty clear all Joshua saw was divine messenger. Too bad it could not turn about and stand before the gates and offer the people inside the chance to a convert.

    what Rahab heard was from Him relayed by the Holy Spirit to them regarding what to do
    Not in the text she is rather the worst kind of weasel who saved own butt and betrayed her city, nice.

    From the ultimatum those in Jerico chose to stand and fight from within the city which they thought was impregnable.
    What ultimatum? Citation please.

    Jesus was there OK for if one recalls His statement that where any two or three are present in His name He will be there amongst them as were Joshua
    Not in the text of the old testament.

    Rahab whom we know were Godly people
    Slimy traitor you mean.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  11. #391

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    It is not accepted that Moses wrote the Torah outside the faith community.
    True, and even many modern believers don't believe Moses wrote all the Torah. Since the of Moses is described in one of the books of the Torah he can hardly have been the sole author anyways.



    Sodom was destroyed because of an unspecified sin: it is not mentioned who they worshipped. Are you threatening another poster? That would be against the ToS.
    Actually, one of the sins of Sodom was explicitly shown in the bible. Sodom was not destroyed because of any one sin, but because the people were wicked, really bad dudes, not because of any one specific sin


    Wanting to rape strangers just because they happen to wander into your town is pretty bad, bu isn't necessarily rhr only thing Sodom was guilty of.

    Nephilim apparently, you know, the gigantic offspring of Angels and women. They were seen after the flood, and the only survivors were Noah's family, so apparently someone in the family was a Giant.
    Since everybody was descended from Noah, the Giants must have been related ro Noah, yes. But no one in Noah's family was a giant, they came later.

    Back to the parasites, we know that disease are not the result of demonic possession but viruses, bacteria, parasites and other conditions etc. Are you saying parasites, living things, survived inundation outside the ark? Genesis 7:23 says all life was destroyed. Either Noah and his family were host to every single parasite known to man, or the Bible told another lie.
    The diseases and parasites could have come from all the animals Noah had in the ark, not necessarily from Noah's family. Or the diseases could have evolved after the flood. Your logic is wrong.
    Last edited by Common Soldier; January 15, 2020 at 03:46 PM.

  12. #392
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    conon394,

    God had no intention other than to drive the inhabitants of the land He intended for the Israelites to stay on it. Rahab, God used to further His task which she successfully did. It is said that the Old Testament is the New hidden and the New Testament the Old revealed and that is why one has to involve both to know God better. Therefore when we look back to the garden when God walked and talked with Adam Who exactly was that? The Father is a Spirit upon Whom no man can look and live so that Person Who walked and talked with Adam had to be Jesus Christ his very Creator. John opens that up by telling us that there was nothing ever created but by Jesus Christ. So when I said that Jesus was there OK, He was being God as was the Father in Spirit and the Holy Spirit.

  13. #393

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheLeft View Post
    Just out of interest, does anyone know the percentage of all the animal species on earth that happen to live within a short walk of Noah's House?
    I haven't really dug into the math well enough to give anything like a precise figure, but there were very few dinosaurs as near as I can tell.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Genesis 2:17 "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die". Now I agree with other posters the KJV is a flawed translation but you hold it to be God's Word and that statement is not equivocal. "in the day that thou eastest thereof thou shalt surely die". There's no context or flow here, God lies.
    I get that you’re picking at the KJV for a reason, but there isn’t an issue here in the Hebrew text. If I were going to translate it completely literally, it would be “that in day you eat from it, dying you will die”. The meaning is “because when you eat from it, you will become mortal”. Translators usually try to split the difference between the actual words and the best interpretation in context. The construction “in day” has no definite article. The word yōwm usually means “a day”, but it can refer to an indefinite period of time idiomatically. In this context however, bəyōwm really means “when” or “from that moment”, but the emphatic verb construction “dying you will die” implies no specific time frame. If you want to know why, see here: Hebrew imperfect tense. If you get through to the end of that page, you’ll get a sense of why it’s so difficult to translate Hebrew to English (or to any other Indo-European language).

    The theme here is one that reoccurs in ancient Near Eastern literature - the idea that man, unlike animals, has knowledge like the gods, but unlike the gods, lacks eternal life. In the Adapa myth for example, Adapa is the first man. He’s made with wisdom, but without eternal life. He’s offered food that will give him immortality, which he is tricked into not eating. Some interesting inversions when compared to the Garden of Eden story. In Genesis 2:22, “Behold, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...” Who is “us”? The “divine congregation”, the bənę ĕlōhîm (offspring of God), the lesser gods/powers which the Septuagint translates as “angels”. Psalm 82: “ĕlōhîm stands among the divine congregation, among the ĕlōhîm he judges”. The first ĕlōhîm is grammatically singular, the second plural. The poetic form indicates that the text before and after the comma are synonymous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    It is not accepted that Moses wrote the Torah outside the faith community.
    So you don’t think he wrote the part about when he died and was buried in Moab?

    Historical sidenote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I lack the perspective or understanding to descry the wheat from the chaff but one point sticks out: I struggle with the idea of a fortified city on an arid hill with no spring inside the walls. Surely Melchizedek or David weren't stupid enough to leave Salem's city without a secure water supply inside the walls? I mean the spring was fortified early so it was worth holding on to.
    The spring fortifications are from the Middle Bronze, and they are massive. The stones used are bigger than anything I can think of in Jerusalem prior to Herod’s building projects. They were still in use in the Iron Age.

    Jerusalem is typical Mediterranean climate like the coastal plain, so it’s only really dry June through September. There are short periods of pretty intense precipitation November through March. It’s not unusual for the water source to be outside the city. A lot of local tels (maybe most) lack an internal water source, because they’re as much hilltop fortresses as they were towns. Usually they were built on high hills overlooking river valleys, often near the confluence of two streams. The streams were used more for agricultural purposes and supplemental drinking water rather than as the main source of drinking water for those that lived in the tels, since they were dry through the summer months at the least. Tels had huge cisterns to gather rainwater which would last year-round. There would still be a risk of running out of water during a long siege though, because the population from the surrounding countryside would have fled into the tel as an enemy army approached.

    Through most the biblical period, the bulk of armies were made up of soldiers who would be agricultural workers outside the campaigning season, hence the main reason for there being a campaigning season. The campaigning season mostly coincided with the time of year the streams would be dry anyway. For Jerusalem before it expanded into a huge city, guarding the Gihon would have been important for denying a besieging army a convenient water source outside the city, but there would have also been large cisterns inside.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  14. #394
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    The thing is that the Biblical period has never ended because through it by reading or hearing it is the power of God unto salvation.

  15. #395
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    but there would have also been large cisterns inside.
    Also aside from centralized water storage there was also local, in Athens for example many private houses had individual cisterns as well.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  16. #396
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    sumkilz,

    What's a Tel?

  17. #397

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    sumkilz,

    What's a Tel?
    It’s a specific type of fortified city. They would flatten off the top of a hill and build up around it to make a platform for a city, and then build a ring of walls at the perimeter of the flattened area. The walls would have stone for about the first ten feet and then mudbrick on top of that. Before the Hellenistic period, almost all the cities in the region were tels.

    This is a picture of Tel Azekah taken from the tel across the valley:



    The fortifications at the top are mostly collapsed and buried now, but this is how it was described by Sennacherib (text is fragmentary):

    […Ashur, my lord, encourage]ed me and against the land of Ju[dah I marched. In] the course of my campaign, the tribute of the kings of Philistia? I received…
    […with the mig]ht of Ashur, my lord, the province of [Hezek]iah of Judah like […
    […] the city of Azekah, his stronghold, which is between my [bo]rder and the land of Judah […
    [like the nest of the eagle? ] located on a mountain ridge, like pointed iron daggers without number reaching high to heaven […
    [Its walls] were strong and rivaled the highest mountains, to the (mere) sight, as if from the sky [appears its head? …
    [by means of beaten (earth) ra]mps, mighty? battering rams brought near, the work of […], with the attack by foot soldiers, [my] wa[rriors…
    […] they had seen [the approach of my cav]alry and they had heard the roar of the mighty troops of the god Ashur and [their] he[arts] became afraid […
    [The city Azekah I besieged,] I captured, I carried off its spoil, I destroyed, I devastated, [I burned with fire…

    It’s a bit of propaganda, but the tel looks higher and much more dramatic when you’re at the base looking straight up at it, and the excavated sections of the fortifications are pretty massive, so it’s not completely an exaggeration.

    Azekah was destroyed by the Babylonians at the same time as their siege of Jerusalem. According to Jerimiah 34:7, Lachish and Azekah were the last two fortified cities to hold out other than Jerusalem. There was a letter found in the ruins of Lachish from a subordinate written to the commander of the garrison in between the time Azekah had fallen and Lachish was the last one left:

    And inasmuch as my lord sent to me concerning the matter of Bet Harapid, there is no one there. And as for Semakyahu, Semayahu took him and brought him up to the city. And your servant is not sending him there any[more -], but when morning comes round [-]. And may (my lord) be apprised that we are watching for the fire signals of Lachish according to all the signs which my lord has given, because we cannot see Azekah.

    Tel Megiddo from the air:



    In modern Hebrew and Arabic, the word "tel" also evokes the image of a ruin. That's where the name of Tel Aviv comes from. Aviv is the month in the Hebrew calendar that begins with the Spring equinox, so Tel Aviv is supposed to evoke the image of an old ruin coming back to life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  18. #398
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Thx, good info. I had thought a tel was an accretion mound formed from the collapse and rebuilding of mud brick buildings.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  19. #399

    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    I had thought a tel was an accretion mound formed from the collapse and rebuilding of mud brick buildings.
    That's a contributing factor, but I think the idea that mudbrick detritus formed the bulk of the initial platform came from archaeologists back in the day not realizing that Early to Middle Bronze Age people engaged in ambitious building projects on a scale that wasn't really seen again until the late Hellenistic to Roman period. Mudbrick also doesn't deteriorate as fast as you would think.

    The Middle Bronze Age mudbrick gate at Tel Dan:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Incidentally, for those that don't know, that's the site where the stele was found on which Hazael of Aram-Damascus boasts: "I slew seventy kings, who harnessed thousands of chariots and thousands of horsemen. I killed Jehoram son of Ahab king of Israel, and I killed Ahaziah son of Jehoram king of the House of David, and I set their towns into ruins and turned their land into desolation."
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  20. #400
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    Default Re: How true is the Bible?

    One can see from your spoiler alert why the Egyptians turned the Hebrews into slaves as the projects there mounted. The thing is perhaps lost in that all the Egyptians were doing was added by the fact that it hardened the Hebrew men physically for the escape to come. It would explain why the Hebrews were able to carry off a great deal of plunder when they did go.

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